Pakistani Women Buried Alive 'for Choosing Husbands'

reply to post by moocowman


are you saying its a fact that muslim woman are more abused than any other religion, including mentally? can you show me please?

and to those thinking that these woman should just pack up and leave their husbands, towns, cities, countries need a reality check.
these woman (refering to 'some' muslim/islamic) are inslaved in their own environments. they are forced to live unimaginable lives and have to contend with being KILLED if they evan look at a man the wrong way. now stop and imagine this for just one second, clique.....put yourself in their shoes....would you run?

woman from all walks of life are abused in many shapes and forms and as a charity worker i've seen it all and beleive me its not 'religion' specific. look in your backyards and you may just see a bit more than you bargain for. you hear more about the atrocities which occur to woman of specific faiths and automatically generalise (media's fault), just know its not the fact.

Yes - but the women themselves have to bond together and make a stand. It is the only way. Governments and help groups can only do so much. And you can see the viewpoint of men hasn't changed much. It's still the woman's fault.

In history both men and women have risked their lives in wars for freedom. If you aren't willing to do that - then you live with what you have.

But even here in America - such as the polygamists - women believe they are subservient to men. You can't make women fight for a right they don't believe they have a right to.

The hardest thing in the world is to change a culture.

Originally posted by enlighten2012
reply to post by moocowman

 

are you saying its a fact that muslim woman are more abused than any other religion, including mentally? can you show me please?

No enlighten I'm not saying this at all, I do belive IMHO that it is religions generally that have a culture of abusing women. Religion encourages it and religion is the invention of men which seems to be a tool to justify the control and subdugation of women.

There is no dissagreement that muslim women are treated less favourably than animals , however my point is. That as I see it the likes of christianity have had a culture of treating women as appallingly a Islam.

What gets up my nose is that christians are normally the first to wag their pious fingers at Islam and yet their bible still contains instructions on how to RAPE a female captive for example

(NRSV) Deuteronomy 21:11-14 Suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman whom you desire and want to marry, and so you bring her home to your house; she shall shave her head, pare her nails, discard her captive’s garb, and shall remain in your house for a full month, mourning for her father and mother; after that you may go into her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. But if you are not satisfied with her, you shall let her go free and not sell her for money. You must not treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her


I love the last sentence here " don't treat your sex slave as a slave because you raped her " !!!


Of course the christians will scream from the pulpits "It's all changed now we dont have to do that anymore"

But at the end of the day, these types of disgusting inhuman and totally repugnant doctrines have not been removed from the christian life instruction manual.

What kind of confused message is this kind of filth sending to the children being brain washed at sunday school, or the vulnrable waif at a soup kitchen who's unaware the good samaritan with the tin of cambells broth is about to educate him in bigotry.


Any christian woman who does not make a sincere attempt to have this type of (supposedly non appplicable ) doctrine removed from a supposedly religious book suitable for children, is sending a very clear message to men.
In that she agrees that she is subordinate to a the man and does not disagree with rape or slavery etc.


It is a known fact that many western women suffer at the hands of abusive husbands, but fail to escape him because "part" of her problem is, the cultural expectation of this woman to endure the abuse in a marriage, again a throwback to religious indoctrination.

Funnily enough marriage itself appears to be nothing more than a religious institution designed solely to supply regular sex and servitude to a man.

And at the end of the day how many men turn down the above if there's no small print?

You guys this is easy to criticize Islam here but I am a Muslim and i have read the Quran in its translation and i don't feel like killing women nor telling them to cover up their faces, Those girls who have been killed there are living in such a backwards place that they're literally living in 18th century there. I am a Pakistani and Pakistan is a very modern country these sorts of things happen in rural areas where there is no Government present because of the remote location of that place. Baluchistan is a state of Pakistan that is literally desert for miles on end. These people are illiterate people who haven't even read the Quran. There is no form of Government there and these people have created their own councils. And if any thing goes wrong they set up these councils and decide for themselves. You all should investigate that in Modern Pakistan nothing like this ever happens honor killings only happen in remote places like these desert villages. Islam doesn't state in any way that a women should be killed just because she doesn't wanna marry a dude. If you're not convinced read the Quran and trust me you'll view point of Islam will dramatically change. these people do not follow the Quran they only follow their own ways which have been there since before Islam became a major religion in India. I mean the Hindus have been killing widows with their husbands until 1930s, the British people stopped that when they came to India. Islam is a religion of peace, but those who don't follow it well they're aren't Muslims even if they say they are.

Christianity is just as bad. I know Christians who dance with rattlesnakes and let them bite little girls (personally knew one). Yet Christians are the first to stand up against Islam. Not buying it sorry. There are very big differences between a "few and all" Islamists (the ones protesting it were probably still Islamists). I dont condone either but, since Ive denounced religion I am able to see it for what it is.

Before these people had oil they were throwing stones at each other for weapons. Its like dressing up a caveman in modern clothing and telling him to act like he was born in 1985. Its just not going to happen. So we kill the caveman? Makes absolutely no sense. And the western media constantly puts this in womens faces to drive the american female Christian to push for war against Islam. In turn they push this on their spouse / teach it to their children. Its all social psychology.

Take a few college courses. One big propaganda game, heck not to long ago you were burning people at the stake and stoning people to death (Christians). Then what do you know, Oil shows up and the industrial revolution. Please dont try and play high and mighty Christian with me, I grew up in Christianity. These people are commiting the very same acts as Christians did previously and need time to mature as a society.

They also did not breed out an entire society forcefully thru rape either.
I can go on forever.


[edit on 5-9-2008 by Memysabu]

In a politically correct world we cant say this kinda stuff about other religions. Reality is that Muslims do not have the same respect that the do in western countries.

Regrettably, silence is the more typical reaction to these crimes. Fearful of giving offense or being branded with the ubiquitous "Islamophobia" label, law enforcement, journalists, social workers, government officials and, most of all, Western feminists are allowing a grave threat to women's rights go unaddressed. The misguided purveyors of multiculturalism — an ideology that holds that all cultures or religions are equivalent and none (save for the dominant, or Western, culture) worthy of condemnation — have rendered the West incapable of addressing evils where Third World cultures are to blame. But the truth is Western culture offers the greatest boon to women's rights and must therefore be vigorously defended, even if that means stepping into the realm of the politically incorrect.

www.sfgate.com.../g/a/2008/01/23/cstillwell .DTL

Chrsitians could get away from there barbaric beliefs Muslims cannot, Heres what i mean Christian bible along comes Jesus a new testament is created and all that old testament stuff out the window.On the other hand the Quran was just as harsh as the bible stoning death etc the problem is they cant look at the Quran and say that no longer applies like Christians can because its the word of god and it hasnt changed. Bottom line until another Muslim prophet comes along to change things for them muslims are put in a precarious situation tying to reinterpret the Quran. This leads to the problem we see today 1 group of Muslims saying this is the word of god and must be followed and moderates saying your miss interpreting the Quran. Untill moderates stand up and are heard nothing will change.

Originally posted by moocowman
I do believe IMHO that it is religions generally that have a culture of abusing women. Religion encourages it and religion is the invention of men which seems to be a tool to justify the control and subdigation of women.

There is no disagreement that Muslim women are treated less favorably than animals , however my point is. That as I see it the likes of Christianity have had a culture of treating women as appallingly a Islam.

Of course the Christian's will scream from the pulpits "It's all changed now we don't have to do that anymore"

It is a known fact that many western women suffer at the hands of abusive husbands, but fail to escape him because "part" of her problem is, the cultural expectation of this woman to endure the abuse in a marriage, again a throwback to religious indoctrination.

I so agree with you. Religion is the "devil in itself" sometimes.

Recently a friend of my daughter's sought help from her minister. This is a Community Christian Church - not even a far right fundamental church. Her husband had been beating her. The minister told her the bible says she is to be subservient to her husband. What was she doing that was causing him to be abusive.

She - being a devout Christian - went back to her husband and continues to suffer.

As previous said - I am a 60+ woman who was a part of the Women's Right's movement. It really irks me that this kind of stuff continues.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by moocowman
I do believe IMHO that it is religions generally that have a culture of abusing women. Religion encourages it and religion is the invention of men which seems to be a tool to justify the control and subdigation of women.

There is no disagreement that Muslim women are treated less favorably than animals , however my point is. That as I see it the likes of Christianity have had a culture of treating women as appallingly a Islam.

Of course the Christian's will scream from the pulpits "It's all changed now we don't have to do that anymore"

It is a known fact that many western women suffer at the hands of abusive husbands, but fail to escape him because "part" of her problem is, the cultural expectation of this woman to endure the abuse in a marriage, again a throwback to religious indoctrination.

I so agree with you. Religion is the "devil in itself" sometimes.

Recently a friend of my daughter's sought help from her minister. This is a Community Christian Church - not even a far right fundamental church. Her husband had been beating her. The minister told her the bible says she is to be subservient to her husband. What was she doing that was causing him to be abusive.

She - being a devout Christian - went back to her husband and continues to suffer.

As previous said - I am a 60+ woman who was a part of the Women's Right's movement. It really irks me that this kind of stuff continues.

Well this example just goes to show how repugnant the bible is, I've no doubt that christians will chirp the usual anal comments like "but their not true christains!" .

What annoys the hell out of me is that christians try to make out that this type of behaviour is in no way near as bad as other religions.

What if that particular mininster became a Governor or god forbid the president of a country ? It's not too much of a stretch of the imagination, just look at Arnie, a man whos' carrier has been almost wholely promoting viloence became a governor ??

Any woman that gets up in the morning in her own house, and drives her own car to a job where she earns her own money, that calls herself a christian should be deeply deeply ashamed of herself if she choses to ignore the digusting misogyny of the bible.

Originally posted by dragonridr


In a politically correct world we cant say this kinda stuff about other religions. Reality is that Muslims do not have the same respect that the do in western countries.

Regrettably, silence is the more typical reaction to these crimes. Fearful of giving offense or being branded with the ubiquitous "Islamophobia" label, law enforcement, journalists, social workers, government officials and, most of all, Western feminists are allowing a grave threat to women's rights go unaddressed. The misguided purveyors of multiculturalism — an ideology that holds that all cultures or religions are equivalent and none (save for the dominant, or Western, culture) worthy of condemnation — have rendered the West incapable of addressing evils where Third World cultures are to blame. But the truth is Western culture offers the greatest boon to women's rights and must therefore be vigorously defended, even if that means stepping into the realm of the politically incorrect.

www.sfgate.com.../g/a/2008/01/23/cstillwell .DTL

Chrsitians could get away from there barbaric beliefs Muslims cannot, Heres what i mean Christian bible along comes Jesus a new testament is created and all that old testament stuff out the window.On the other hand the Quran was just as harsh as the bible stoning death etc the problem is they cant look at the Quran and say that no longer applies like Christians can because its the word of god and it hasnt changed. Bottom line until another Muslim prophet comes along to change things for them muslims are put in a precarious situation tying to reinterpret the Quran. This leads to the problem we see today 1 group of Muslims saying this is the word of god and must be followed and moderates saying your miss interpreting the Quran. Untill moderates stand up and are heard nothing will change.

Correction Islam doesn't say stone to death, no stoning in Quran please don't spread propaganda. Next time go to a reliable source. Another correction, 'no prophet after Mohammad', simple believe of Muslims, messengers will come but no prophets. Quran is for all times and is a fairly moderate book if you read it yourself instead of relying on Christian websites.

reply to post by Ownification


Sorry it has taken so long, I have been busy.

Let me get this straight, inner city violence and gang warfare is a creation of U.S. culture? Where did you read that, because only someone completely ignorant of history could make up such nonsense. Inner city violence and gang warfare has been around since Sumeria, and probably before.

Throw a bund of people from different cultures into an area of dense population, create a situation where the parents are always busy working, and the kids have nowhere to go, and you have the perfect formula for mischief. Ow, but of course everything is the blame of the U.S., even local tribalistic gang activies in your own neighborhood on the opposite side of the plant. How pathetic.

Here is a point history you might want to consider. U.S. cities had very low crime rates in the fifties. Then there was this guy who converted to the Muslim faith, and started a group called the Black Panthers. You can look up the groups history. The new group advocated a path of violence, and crime ravaged in the neighborhoods where Islam flourished ever since. Islam stirs up trouble where ever it goes.

The real fact of the matter is that Muhammad was a master of gang warfare, raising the art to a religion, in which its members was daily swear their allegiance to him, well over a thousand years after his death. Like all gangs, the penalty for turning away from the group is death. The mob probably learned everything they know from Islam. The parallels between the two organizations are amazingly similar.

Correction Islam doesn't say stone to death, no stoning in Quran please don't spread propaganda. Next time go to a reliable source. Another correction, 'no prophet after Mohammad', simple believe of Muslims, messengers will come but no prophets. Quran is for all times and is a fairly moderate book if you read it yourself instead of relying on Christian websites.

I didn't the Quran had anything to do with stoning I was discussing the bible and I said the Quran cant have a messiah rewrite the way things are written as in the bible so I guess you might want to read it again. And I have read the Quran and if you call having people put to death fairly moderate so be it we apparently have a different opinion of fairly moderate. Oh and even learned there's 2 different English versions of the Quran The true translation can only be given to you with a vow of reading it because the version I got from a Saudi friend appears to be different then what ive seen online its very strange in fact why is there 2 versions? After trying to find what I believed about god id have to say the most peaceful is Buddhists.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Ownification

 

Sorry it has taken so long, I have been busy.

Let me get this straight, inner city violence and gang warfare is a creation of U.S. culture? Where did you read that, because only someone completely ignorant of history could make up such nonsense. Inner city violence and gang warfare has been around since Sumeria, and probably before.

Throw a bund of people from different cultures into an area of dense population, create a situation where the parents are always busy working, and the kids have nowhere to go, and you have the perfect formula for mischief. Ow, but of course everything is the blame of the U.S., even local tribalistic gang activies in your own neighborhood on the opposite side of the plant. How pathetic.

Here is a point history you might want to consider. U.S. cities had very low crime rates in the fifties. Then there was this guy who converted to the Muslim faith, and started a group called the Black Panthers. You can look up the groups history. The new group advocated a path of violence, and crime ravaged in the neighborhoods where Islam flourished ever since. Islam stirs up trouble where ever it goes.

The real fact of the matter is that Muhammad was a master of gang warfare, raising the art to a religion, in which its members was daily swear their allegiance to him, well over a thousand years after his death. Like all gangs, the penalty for turning away from the group is death. The mob probably learned everything they know from Islam. The parallels between the two organizations are amazingly similar.

I was busy too just came back today read some news and looking for your response

Anyways I never said inner city warfare and gang violence is the creation of US, I merely said it is a culture, don't you think? Compare that to honor killings. You don't think that is a culture? My point stands, ofcurse you blame the parents, why not blame the parents of the individuals who do honor killings or who accepted the killings of these ladies?

On the other hand the Quran was just as harsh as the bible stoning death etc

I don't know how to interpret that statement lol, it seemed to me that you are comparing the harshness of the Quran to the Bible by giving an example of stoning to death. Sorry if I read it wrong but that is how it seems.

reply to post by Ownification

Anyways I never said inner city warfare and gang violence is the creation of US

This is what you wrote in the post I am replying to.

This culture is spreading to New Zealand is well. Prior to this American culture moving to New Zealand it was not necessary for Police-men/Police-women to wear protective vests on duty, now that the culture is widely spread accross NZ(specialy Auckland), all police officers must wear protective gear on petrol. Everywhere you go people walking in gangs, wearing their colors, fighting is on the increase and lets not even talk about theft.

You claimed that American culture moving to New Zealand is creating gang violence. This is exactly what you are claiming, that gang violence is a result of American culture, and that is complete nonsenes. Gang violence exists in all cultures, universal pretty much throughout, with only a few exceptions. This means that gang violence is not something we can identify with any specific culture, or a few different cultures.

Honor killings can be clearly associated primarily with Muslim culture. Muslims are the people who practice this barbaric custom the most. this is the reality, whether or not you want to face it.

The constant distortions and denials do not move the conversation forward at all. Who do you think you are fooling?

reply to post by enlighten2012


This is a prime example of how women in Muslim countries are abused more than in any other country.

while women are abused in the U.S., it is considered to be a crime, and where ever this type of abuse is being perpetrated, the abusers are quickly sought out and arrested.

In this country, Pakistan, which this article talks about, this brutal murder was actually defended on the senate floor. If it wasn't for international humane watchers getting involved, nothing would have been done. If you bothered to do some research, you would find that this type of activity occurs regularly in Muslim culture, even among Muslims living in other countries, like western Europe.

Wake up and pull your head out of the sand.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Funny though, how Christians will fight up, down and sideways about the sanctity of the Bible, until you hit them with a few inconsistancies. Then they deny the Old Testament and point you towards the new and improved version. I for one can't wait until Bill Maher's new movie comes out.

the validity of the bible does not rely on pefection, simply because it was written by divinely inspired humans, who are imperfect. the details and minutia are not as important as the big picture; the main message communicated.

there are good lessons in the o.t. but the new covenant is what supersedes the old tribal laws

But more importantly...is not this entire thread about the relationship between backward tribal laws and the manner in which mainstream religion is practiced? Thanks for proving my point!

its funny when you must alter a premise to something other than it is, to make a point... a fundamental flaw...

this thread is about islam, in the context of why this woman was murdered.

the koran is immutable, written by only one person and does rely on perfection for it's validity, and is directly supportive of the end this woman met with.

women are worth little more than livestock in islam. allah be praised!

reply to post by feydrautha

women are worth little more than livestock in islam. allah be praised!

Not EXACTLY true.

When they are under 10 years old they are actually wifey material.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Lies, the book of Acts states the first "Christians" were at Antioch in Syria, they translated the KOINE greek text to Latin.

The RCC translated their Bibles from Alexandrian Greek from Egypt which had Hindu and Buddhist influence.

my guess was not a deception, i dont care who were the very first, but antioch is very interesting, not that it matters so much.

i am glad that there is a church that pre-dates the catholics

Originally posted by moocowman
the christ, on the other hand, controlled no one. you are free to believe him or not. reply to post by feydrautha

 

What kind of nonsense is this brother?

If you dont believe the Lord you go to hell full stop period .

There is no choice, you belive on the Lord or you burn in hell, this is not freedom.

You dont funking argue with a man who has a gun to your head, you do whatever he tells you to do.Up untill the point when his orders become so repugnant that you call his bluff and tell him to go ahead and pull the trigger.

correct, you are free to reject heaven, its not for everyone... you are free to reject the christ, no one is going to kill you if you do not submit. unlike another religion i can think of.

humans are free to sin, free to blaspheme, free to avoid eternity in heaven and embrace eternity in hell, its your choice.

wheres the problem? everyone, atheist, muslim, hindu all are aware of the christ, and they can choose to recognise the messiah or not.

where's the problem?

Originally posted by Lookdeeper
True, but majority of these honor killings occur in countries that do not have "authority" over people. If U.S. wasn't a superpower and did not have control over its people I think things would be a LOT similar. Keep in mind, back in the days the churches ruled over everyone and witch hunting became a sport... Again, it wasn't the religion. It was the uneducated people ruling at the time.

witch hunting was a brief period, and had little foundation in the bible. it was much more about social control than anything spiritual.... and the numbers killed are a teeny tiny fraction when compared to deaths in the name of allah since 9/11.

you can even add the inquisition, capitol punishment in the states, kkk lynchings and more if you like... still, a tiny fraction of those killed by allah's true believers in the past 10 years or so.

the authority, btw, that sanctions honor killing, is the only authority allah recognises for his creation; that authority is islam.