New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
You wanna talk about illogical ..I believe its illogical as heck to believe that SOMEONE or SOMETHING other than a big bang didnt PUT IT ALL TOGETHER SO NEATLY ...............God spoke the word the elements obeyed and thats that ..
I believe there may have been a bang even ..but that bang didnt just put together everything like a potter would his precious piece of work.......

But that's pretty far removed from saying that the bible is the inerrant perfect word of God.

It's also pretty far removed from saying there once existed a perfect being called jesus who is the only way to salvation.

The point of science is dividing fact from speculation and the logical rationalisation of that speculation.

Here's an example:

We know the universe exists. That's the fact part.

Since we can't say what the origin is, whether or not a supreme ethereal being started the universe is not a knowable fact. That's the speculation part.

The rationalisation part is that the universe may have always existed and had no beginning. If not, then God needed to have no beginning.

The problem is that the second requires two assumptions whereas the first requires one. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll direct the readers attention to my signature.

[edit on 9/3/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Simplynoone


And all of that your wrote, is because you can`t understand that I found God within me without any outside help from the bible? As I said before, the bible is good for some to believe in if it helps them grow, but not for all. Instead of being happy that people can find God, in any way they may want to look, no, we try to make them feel bad for finding God in a way that many do not understand, or believe in. You speak as though people are unable to find God without the bibles help, yet I have, as have many many others. It saddens me that many people want to restrict others free will in these terms. If we try to restict it for others, then it`s not free anymore, it`s taking away something God gave to us with love.

God doesn`t care how we search, just as long as we find him/her, and understand that we are a part of God as a whole, yet separate.


Finding God even deeper without instructions? The knowledge of all is within us, you just have to look within if you want or need to find it.

[edit on 3-9-2008 by FiatLux]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
The trouble is that these arn't people who will put themselves into other peoples' shoes.

You're right, many of these peope will not change their perspective for 1 second. I realize this. I know that I'm not going to change their beliefs. I'm simply stating where I'm coming from so that those that are ready to make a logical decision can see the whole picture.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
When I was a fundamentalist, I never thought to see things from an external perspective, outside looking in. In any argument that I found myself in, my failure in communication and understanding of other people and thier right to disagree was not being able to look at myself from the external.

It wasn't till later, in the solitary of my bedroom that I took a genuinely external perspective and started to think that I might just be wrong.

That started something wonderful for me.

I have a similar experience. When I was a Christian a thought would come into my head as to how God or his scriptures conflict, and I would simply ignore it (as any Christian is taught to do). It was only when I started thinking about all the people in Hell, and what kind of God would do that, when I started to see things more clearly. The second I admited to myself the possiblity that he didn't exist, all the questions that I had kept silent my whole life started to come to the surface. No one who is 100% sure of anything will take information from an opposing side seriously. This is how I make sure that I will receive the truth if and when it becomes known to me, because I do not believe in anything 100%. I believe that evolution is probably correct, but if I stated in my mind that it was absolute, then I could potentially bar myself from the truth.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Bingo

Originally posted by FiatLux
And all of that your wrote, is because you can`t understand that I found God within me without any outside help from the bible? As I said before, the bible is good for some to believe in if it helps them grow, but not for all. Instead of being happy that people can find God, in any way they may want to look, no, we try to make them feel bad for finding God in a way that many do not understand, or believe in. You speak as though people are unable to find God without the bibles help, yet I have, as have many many others. It saddens me that many people want to restrict others free will in these terms. If we try to restict it for others, then it`s not free anymore, it`s taking away something God gave to us with love.

God doesn`t care how we search, just as long as we find him/her, and understand that we are a part of God as a whole, yet separate.


Finding God even deeper without instructions? The knowledge of all is within us, you just have to look within if you want or need to find it.

[edit on 3-9-2008 by FiatLux]

When I was a kid, I thought there were monsters under my bed. The more I thought about it, the more they became real. Any attempt to rationalize to me that monsters do not exist would have accomplished nothing. Obviously, they weren't real, but my point is this: why do you put so much stock in a feeling or a 'knowing' from 'within'? Feelings, emotions, and perceptions are all fallible. Why base your opinion on something that is so fallible? Logic and reason are far more concrete. Also, I've heard from many who have found God from "within". The problem is that most of these people have conflicting ideas of who/what God is and what he stands for. I could tell you that it's just your brain telling you what you think is there. I could discuss psychology and why you feel these feelings. In the end, no amount of words will change your mind, just like with me and the monsters.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Let me ask you, do you trust something or anything? The reason I trust my feelings, is because they have never let me down. I was at one of my nephews for a party one night. There were over fourty people there. While there, I had a bad feeling come over me about my nephew and his wife, now, mind you, they were as they had always been, carefree and having a great time with all, but yet, I felt that something wasn`t right about it. I stuck around till everyone had left. They were setting and talking with me about the party, I looked my nephew in the eye and asked him what the trouble was. He got this wide eyed look on his face, even his wife did. He asked me what I thought the trouble was. I told him I felt there was a problem between the two of them(him and his wife). They both got tears in their eyes and said that they were going to go file for a divorce the next week. He asked me how I knew about it beings they never said a word to anyone. I told him that I could feel the trouble between them, they were good at hiding it with their actions around everyone, but the normal feeling I had always felt from them was not there anymore, it was gone.


This happens to me everyday of the week and I`m use to it now. It`s a normal day for me with how my feelings work.

Morning Wolf
It is real simple to me Wolf but until you can answer the below questions you who really have nothing figured out and maybe it is you who has been misinformed from the Scientific view
Who or what is directing the whole shebang ?
And who or what did direct everything from the start to mold nothing into something surely had to have had a creator ?from nothing but molecules and atoms and electrical static ...that space music needed a director in order for it to do as it did and work as it does now .
When you can answer that and give me something else to consider that makes any sense at all ....then I cannot believe you have brought enough to the table to convince anyone that there wasnt a director who thinks,creates,feels,ALL THE STUFF THAT WE DO did came from somewhere too didnt it ? Some thing with creativity and personality and feelings RIGHT ?
Now who that director was should really be for another post because none of us have that sort of proof do we ?

As far their being a beginning for God
What if dimensions have no beginning or end
That would explain why the soul will never die because it goes to either one dimension or another (the dimension of heaven where God dwells)( Or the Dimension of hell where satan gets banished to) .Then this dimension gets recreated and maybe God starts all over again in this dimension and on and on it goes.
Heaven is Gods throneroom and hell is satans throne room
This earth is the battlefield for our souls between two kingdoms (God gave satan free will too and see where it led him in a battle with God ?) Because GOD is fighting for us INSPITE OF US even .We want to self destruct and satan wants to help us do that ,and God is battleing us both,dont worry though GOD wins

So dimensions are endless and souls never die
Maybe we really ought to think better about how we treat this life and what we make of it .We live to die thats the people of the EARTHs mindset ..and nothing really meaningful in between except feeding of the flesh ..no wonder so many people are so unhappy ..they have no HOPE in that state and they KNOW IT ....
If your a scientific person then even you know that even they believe that death may not be IT there is more to it than just whats happening to us now.
Shouldnt we try and make the best of it while we have it ?And prepare to meet our maker and when we do will you be ashamed at how you didnt believe in him and treated him with no respect as your creator (some of you DOWNRIGHT DENY HIM HIS EXISTANCE ..do you want him to DENY YOU YOURS?
or will you be over joyed with happiness to finally meet him face to face and be thrilled to see him and thank him for the help in getting us through all that this NATURAL FORCEFUL NATURE what we call earth and flesh and satan put us through .

What do you think ?

Sheesh I talk to much ..

lol

reply to post by TruthParadox


Like I said, they all have the same format, and context is the key to understanding. Again, if you are focused on finding contradictions in the Bible, that is what you will find. The Word is truly sealed to unbelievers.

I want you guys and gals to know I am not being purposely rude or condescending. I am blunt and direct, and sometimes that comes across the wrong way. I don't mean anybody any disrespect. I voice the strength of my convictions. I consider them universal truths, but you are under no obligation to do so. The written word is obviously devoid of tone, inflection, and body language, so it is hard to gauge intent at times.

You are all entitled to your beliefs. So am I. I am not really trying to convince you all of anything, I am just stating my opinion on these matters.

Simplynoone, I'm afraid that you have fallen into another logical fallacy. Two, in fact.

Begging the Question
And my signature again.

This is mainly because:
1) You look at the universe and decide that it is so complicated and intricate that it needed a director, its like seeing a figure in the shadow of a tree. The idea of intelligent design comes into question which has no basis.

2)If the creator no beginning, you need the necessity an unending heaven then why not cut out the middle man and say the universe has no beginning. Again there is superfluous assumptions.


For more information on fallacies consult your local wikipedia.


The appeal to ignorance is why I won't say ether way whether God exists or not, but the lack of evidence so far tells me that if he does, then he doesn't care to come forward and show himself. Again, while the lack of evidence does not disprove god, it does disprove the biblical image of God.

[edit on 9/4/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Icarus Rising


It's not that I'm "focused" on finding contradictions. They are right there in black and white for everyone to see. I know that nothing either one of us says will change the others mind. I have a feeling that God could come down himself and tell you he doesn't exist and you would not believe it (I know that statement makes no sense, but you get what I mean). So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. The whole point I was trying to make is that you can't expect an atheist to put any stock into scriptures, when many of them are contradictory. And, whether you agree or disagree with this point, it's true.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Well I think you made him recognise that the contradictions exist and can't be reconciled. That's something.

Quick lil diddy...

So, you are a father of many children. You tell many of your children that if they misbehave they will die. But because there are so many children, many did not hear the word. Yet, you are their father, you have made the rules, and when a child misbehaves, yet did not hear the word, they still must die.

I ask what father here would do that to their children? That is why the Bible does not make sense. There are millions of people in this world that have not, nor will not hear about Jesus Christ before they die. Many worship God, but not "Christ". Yet "our" Bible says "Christ is the only way", yada yada. Many times truth is as simple as "thinking" for yourself. Things that don't make any sense are often NOT the truth. I enjoy the posts with all the Bible verses, preaching, trying to save a lost wolf etc., (pun intended) but the OP has pointed out, amongst many others here, that the Bible is full of confusion and holes. For everything that states you should do something, there is another verse that says you shouldn't. Love thy neighbor, kill thy neighbor! But it's OK! Do ANYTHING you want, lie, cheat, steal, kill, rape, but simply except the blood of Christ and you will get a full pardon!

PuhLeeze!






[edit on 4-9-2008 by knows_but_doesnt]

reply to post by knows_but_doesnt


Thanks for that insight, knows_but_doesnt, well said.

reply to post by Good Wolf


They can't be reconciled for you and TP at this point is all that's been shown. We, and all of creation, are defined by God, not the other way around. The sort of upward delegation you are attempting to impose on God is the root of the conflict, imo.

Yes, we can agree to disagree. My personal relationship with Christ as my Lord and the author of my salvation is not at risk here. It has been affirmed and reaffirmed many times in my daily walk. It will be challenged many times again I am sure. I trust in God and His Holy Spirit that dwells within me to reveal His truth as needed to sustain me.

Matthew 10

18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


Revelation 21

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

reply to post by knows_but_doesnt


On this side of the Cross we are all born with a moral compass that tells us right from wrong. Those who choose to continue in sin are without excuse.

Hebrews 10

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

What surprises me is that despite all post talking about the fallibility and irrational nature of the book (to the point that 11 pages ago I said don't bother, I've read the book and it leaves wanting), you still quote it.

You really are fickle aren't you.

Hey Icarus, www.nobeliefs.com...






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[edit on 9/4/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Icarus Rising

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Yes, we can agree to disagree.

Good. I'm getting a bit tired of this old song and dance.
If there's one thing I can be sure of, it's that you never fail to quote Biblical scripture. =)

I at least admire your determination (even if it is misdirected ).

For those sparring on this thread who haven't already, there is a new important thread going on about the existence of Jesus

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Good Wolf


Hey Good Wolf, sorry for jumping half way into this thread. I'm about the same age as you at the moment (give or take a few months) and know exactly what you are going through (generaly). Lately there has been so much doubt in my mind about following the teachings of my church and of the bible - its hard but Im believing that hopefuly Ill come out of this with an even more awesome love for God and all that he does for us.
mmm, its hard to explain, but sometimes you just read verses and they really throw you off, I think its partly to do with the translation more then anything - always good to have a few differnt translations handy though.

I was reading earlier on in the thread, I think in the OP there was a little bit about the bible not being literaly the word of God - well my friend, thats becasue its not, God didnt get out his pen and paper and sit there on his funky mountain, back in the day and write his thoughts and the history of his people. Rather then this I think that through different people he gave insite into different topics and gave them inspiration as to what to write - his word then flows through these different writers and into the world.

Anyhow, thats my little speech for the evening. If you wanna talk Good Wolf please u2u me. I dont really know about the rest of this thread (I only read page one) but it looks like a resonably civil religion discussion, keep up the good work guys.

-fm