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New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

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posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 09:04 PM
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It is always good to ask, research, and question. Never believe any one person or source.

I was in the same boat as you at your age. I was very angry and just as confused as to what in the hell was actually going on.

Go to: yourmomlied.com

Click on: 1. Religion

(I promise you this will be well worth your time to at least glance at this page)




posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 09:10 PM
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I'm not much interested in desperate apologetics anymore.

People who say the book was divinely inspired annoy because they seem to forget that the books weren't written by anything divine, but rather, the fallible man. If this isn't the case with the bible then that means the spiritual being who wrote it had poor spelling or grammar. It's not perfect and it contradicts itself thusly.

If it were divinely inspired, it wouldn't hold such silly ideas as the one mentioned above about the farmer who wanted stripes on his cow, so he painted them on and somehow this pregnant cow gave birth to a stripped calf.
Genesis 30:37-39

or Balaam and his talking donkey
Balaam is just minding his own business, spanking his ass (donkey) when suddenly he hears a voice. It’s his donkey who is asking him why he is spanking him. Balaam doesn’t seem the least bit miffed that his donkey has starting talking in the same language as him and says, “Because thou hast mocked me.” The donkey then gets philosophical and explains the nature of their relationship and how his feelings have been hurt. Eventually they make peace. Oh yeah did I mention it was TALKING DONKEY?

The moral of this story? Don’t beat animals. If they could talk then they would probably tell you how upset they were.
(Numbers 22:28-30)

These things tell me that the books not only weren't divinely inspired (as the god(s) seem to not understand simple science which they would have made) but were written by imaginative morons. Of course you're going to find errors, conflicting accounts and contradictions- it's inevitable.


To put the blame on these errant passages on translations is merely an apologetic scapegoat because while things do get lost in translations, anyone who would have translated these books would have noticed how many errors they made because keeping track of accuracy is part of their job/purpose, and they surely would have started again. In reality the books didn't start out as one-piece writings as we know, many of the books are cumulations of older religious fables and parables which can often be found in religions older that Christianity, like the ancient Egyptian religion. Such a mish-mash of oral-traditions, interpretations, fables, traditions, beliefs, interpolations, dreams etc. are fated to produce general disharmony between one another and contrasts and conflicts apear when you combine them into single texts.



[edit on 9/5/2008 by Good Wolf]

[edit on 9/5/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 12:52 AM
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hey there Good Wolf, I am a "Christian", but i very much believe you should do what your doing. Christianity throughout the ages has always believed without questioning, and honestly it still happens today. For example, like the second replier said i think it was, if there is a God and if it is a Just God. Then it would encourage such actions like what you are doing now. So seek the truth, be open minded at all times, and never let ignorance have a foothold in your life.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 01:45 AM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 


"Holy Jesus and a bowl of soup!" This is a brilliant website!



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 03:52 AM
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just post your email id so that I can mail you a few things to read on.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Go to: yourmomlied.com

Click on: 1. Religion

(I promise you this will be well worth your time to at least glance at this page)


Ha, you weren't kidding. I love this site already.

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

[That eliminates about half of America].


Well I guess Christians have a lot of work to do if they expect to keep God's commandments before Jesus returns. Just goes to show you that most people don't even know what it is that they believe in. Many of the laws in the Old Testament would be considered terrorist acts today, but it's ok because Christ died on the cross. What hypocrisy.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by Good Wolf
If it were divinely inspired, it wouldn't hold such silly ideas as the one mentioned above about the farmer who wanted stripes on his cow, so he painted them on and somehow this pregnant cow gave birth to a stripped calf.
Genesis 30:37-39


i see you have a long way to go. well, the youngsters usually have


above text descripes the magick of alchemy. it is highly allegorical, but if you allow me to explain it means that the will can change the matter; you can become what you want, by merely wanting it. the will here being the keyword, really. have fun!

[edit on 6-9-2008 by Geemor]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 04:16 AM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


tell me, who hasn't died who haven't committed adultery? everybody is adulter and fornicator, it is a sad fact. i am too, and i will die - eventually. it is because the degeneration of human, they cannot no longer understand even the simpliest analogy or metapor. sad really



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 04:37 AM
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Originally posted by Geemor

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)


tell me, who hasn't died who haven't committed adultery? everybody is adulter and fornicator, it is a sad fact. i am too, and i will die - eventually. it is because the degeneration of human, they cannot no longer understand even the simpliest analogy or metapor. sad really


Nice try. It says 'must be put to death'. You know, the Jews back then certainly took these laws seriously, so how exactly is it a metaphor?

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

I don't support homosexuality, but neither do I think someone should be killed for it.

Isn't it ironic that politicians claim that terrorists deeds are abominable, and also state that they believe in the Bible? Because many verses in the Bible are very similar to a terrorists belief. In fact, it's based on the same belief.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 04:42 AM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox

.......

Ha, you weren't kidding. I love this site already.

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

[That eliminates about half of America].


Well I guess Christians have a lot of work to do if they expect to keep God's commandments before Jesus returns. Just goes to show you that most people don't even know what it is that they believe in. Many of the laws in the Old Testament would be considered terrorist acts today, but it's ok because Christ died on the cross. What hypocrisy.


When Christ was on earth he basicaly re-wrote a whole lot of the laws of the old testament. He gave us a new set of rules to live by, these are outlined in the new testament - however the old testament is still a good thing to read as it provides a lot of good teachings, the example you provided from Leviticus is not one of those.
Becasue of christ we are no longer bound by the laws of the old testament, but that doesnt mean its a bad idea to follow them, to this there are exemptions of course.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 04:51 AM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 


Originally posted by TruthParadox
You know, the Jews back then certainly took these laws seriously, so how exactly is it a metaphor?


well, then you must be some old person to state such thing with such certainty. somehow i suspect that you dont have slightest idea of what you are talking about.

well, i really don't want to start push you in any direction. as i said above, people take this stuff too literally, cant really understand metaphors and spiritual texts. its the force of god that puts people to death, or rather the declining of that force, because of adultery and fornication. i won't comment no further, cuz i wish not to argue with no one. your opinions are yours and i respect that. id like to add one contradiction tho: thou shalt not kill. isn't it contradictory that ten commandments state such, then in another place the bible says "must be put to death"? cheers and no offense, have fun.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by Geemor]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:02 AM
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reply to post by Geemor
 


I think with that last bit you mentioned. You need to take into context what was ment by "thou shalt not kill" - I could be wrong here but I think what is ment is do not murder. There is a difference between the two. Killing someone for disobeying the law is different then killing someone becasue you want to hurt someone.
What do you guys think?



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:47 AM
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reply to post by funky monk
 


with all respect i disagree. because few books of old testament(including ten commandments) derives from ages old teaching of egyptians and indians, or aryans, and also from azurian zoroasterism, i am confident on saying that it is not as you said. this merely is my opinion. besides, if it would be so as you said, how easy it would be make up new laws in order to get rid of the people you want dead?

only the great god can decide who is worth of living or dying. of course you could go and shoot someone, but there you will break against the divine law and will get punished by karmic reaction.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by funky monk
When Christ was on earth he basicaly re-wrote a whole lot of the laws of the old testament. He gave us a new set of rules to live by, these are outlined in the new testament - however the old testament is still a good thing to read as it provides a lot of good teachings, the example you provided from Leviticus is not one of those.
Becasue of christ we are no longer bound by the laws of the old testament, but that doesnt mean its a bad idea to follow them, to this there are exemptions of course.


I've heard this before, and it almost makes sense. The part that doesn't and never will make sense is that God said he was the same yesterday, today, and forever. If he was the same, then why would he support killing a homosexual in the past, but not today? If he was the same, all knowing, infinite being, then he would not change his stance. Instead we see the Old Testament and the New Testament repeatedly contradicting itself. My personal belief is that the Old Testament and the New Testament are two different religions pushed together into one. The Old Testament for the Jews, and the New Testament for the Gentiles.



Originally posted by funky monk
reply to post by Geemor
 


I think with that last bit you mentioned. You need to take into context what was ment by "thou shalt not kill" - I could be wrong here but I think what is ment is do not murder. There is a difference between the two. Killing someone for disobeying the law is different then killing someone becasue you want to hurt someone.
What do you guys think?


I think you're right. That's how I always understood it. And if not, then it would simply be another biblical contradiction. No biggie.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 06:01 AM
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reply to post by Geemor
 


Good point, I have no problem with what you have said... But yea we are all entitled to our own opinions.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 06:13 AM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 


I get what your saying, it doesnt make sence that God would be one person one day and one person another. From what I understand (as in if Im wrong please correct me) "God's people" were this little group (the jews) and for there to be people in this group not following God's word (as in not doing their best to do what he says) would be dangerous for God because he needed them to set the scene for a lot of future events here on earth as well as setting the scene for jesus to come along.
Once Jesus came along it opened up christianity and God became a lot more accessable for everyone and there was not as much need to keep this group like it was. But even now God will put a stop to people doing things he doesnt like within his people - he isnt a push over.

Think about it, if you had a group of followers and all of a sudden someone did something you didnt want them to do for what ever reason and you didnt do anything to put a stop to this then whats going to happen to the other followers? They are probably going to sit there and loose some respect for you... this isnt a good thing.

Thats just my take on it. But yea, Im pretty open if you guys have different views?

[edit on 6-9-2008 by funky monk]



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 06:14 AM
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reply to post by funky monk
 


Originally posted by funky monk
Good point, I have no problem with what you have said... But yea we are all entitled to our own opinions.


indeedy we are
maybe the truth is somewhere in between even. i won't definately claim to have it.

anyways, isn't it pretty much same thing 'to want to kill somebody' and 'to want to kill somebody because they broke the law'? in both cases the 'will' is again the common nominator. who are we to decide about life and death? in my opinion we aren't. it is also said in the bible that 'thou shalt not judge'.

i once again put the emphasis on the heavy code by which the bible is written. and it has been also edited many times by those whom originally did not have a clue about the original meaning, so there is lot lost in translation and interpretation.

before i leave this conversation i quote:


That is why the Bible is written in such a way that,when people read it literally, it is only stories, legends, that sometimes makes sense, and sometimes it does not make any sense. But when you read it with the chakra Vishuddha, then you see behind everything.
Gnostic teachings

and then i have to quote:


Childish and altogether ludicrous is what you yourself are and all philosophers; and if a grown-up man like me spends fifteen minutes with fools of this kind, it is merely a way of passing the time. I've now got more important things to do. Goodbye!
By A. Schopenhauer

farewell my kin!



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 06:42 AM
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This thread has danced between the points and questions in my OP and "Is the bible bunk?" many times now.

Defenders of the bible wont let it reast but its an interesting discusion none the less.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


I appreciate your candor! We are similar in many ways. I too felt the obligation and drive to defend my beliefs and Christianity. We both feel that we are doing what we are shown to do.

I don’t claim to be anything other than a junior or lay scholar with my “claim to fame” being: following divine guidance along with others to; “connect the dots!” It is an obvious issue that there is something wrong and it has been put into my providence (and many others) to now question the so-called divine writings, Jesus role and the desires of Jah.

I agree with Bart Ehrman in that; if God did indeed perform the miracle of inspiring the Bible, then, why did he not perform the second and very necessary miracle of making sure that these words would be passed down accurately? Instead of the reality of every “copy,” differing from every other copy, in too many ways to count.

God would have made sure that Matthew, Mark and Luke would be actually written by said authors and not written in a dysfunctional manner recorded decades later by an anonymous background person. The question: would God sanction the Bible (especially the NT) to start off on very bad footing with innumerable inaccuracies and even books claiming to be written by authorities hand picked by Jesus – be viable?

This presents many problems! In a court of law “hearsay” is not admissible, and is not grounds for a defense! It must be logical, and make absolute sense, for God is a God of logic (for he created it), therefore must be firsthand information. God was capable of doing that with the writings of the Bible, but…he didn’t!

The reality is: it has caused innumerable dissension and arguments among all of Christianity. No two religions can agree. Is this your idea of God? Is he this undecided? Is he this convoluted? So we need to reason on why? We have to go beyond our beliefs and structured systems to get at the truth.

An issue with your argument – earliest originals is in incorrect statement, or "original Hebrew or Greek texts." To add credibility you need to phrase it: earliest copies. A copy cannot ever be misconstrued to mean original text and can be a misleading comment. To say; go to the original languages is a cover-up for not saying; we don't have the texts or original manuscripts to test our understanding of the original languages against what has been written.

The earliest copy of the oldest manuscripts of the N T were done on papyrus (papyrus reed) and date from the second century to the seventh. Parchment (majuscule) manuscripts date from the 4th – the 9th centuries. We can only imagine with copy after copy etc. how deluded and faded the original copies would be for future scribes!

Scholars cannot get a clear understanding of who Jesus was and his actual message as there were no scribes recording anything he said! This presents many problems…again.

Bart Ehrman (Misquoting Jesus - The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why"):


“This was a human book from beginning to end. It was written by different human authors at different times and in different places to address different needs. Many of these authors no doubt felt they were inspired by God to say what they did, but they had their own perspectives, their own beliefs, their own views, their own needs, their own desires, their own understandings, their own theologies; and these perspectives, beliefs, views, needs, desires, understandings, and theologies informed everything they said. In all these ways they differed from one another.”


Which would then lead to?


“…what can we say about the total number of variants known today? Scholars differ significantly in their estimates – some say there are 200,000 variants known, some say 300,000, some say 400,000 or more! We do not know for sure because, despite impressive developments in computer technology, no one has yet been able to count them all. Perhaps, as I indicated earlier, it is best simply to leave the matter in comparative terms. There are more variations among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament.”


Aligning with this important information; so many “stories” indicating the doctrine of the trinity, “the woman taken in adultery” (John 7:53-8:12), the last 12 verses of Mark, and countless others that are the backbone of most Christian beliefs, were not part of the earliest manuscript copies! So many doctrines were added...so much later. This cannot be overlooked especially by those seeking truth and accuracy.

As a Christian you can take things on faith, but is this not what every other Christian religion is doing? Do you not see the trouble here? Since no two can agree and “all feel that they have accurate truth (based on a very thin thread in a woven fabric of lies, gossip, slander, misconceptions, or fallible human hands)” – what would that actual accurate truth be? Who is right?

My point: what is God’s accurate truth? Should we not be afraid to explore other possibilities?

Hence, my journey: to search out accurate truth and yet keep God and Jesus in the picture (for this is what I have been shown). But, do I feel that Jesus came to earth to be our savior? If that was his mission, has it worked? Or could his mission been something entirely different?

What other message can we derive from his likely existence? I do not believe we will ever find the answers to those questions within religion. Religion has too much at stake. And even greater yet…which religion would God choose?

In my experience, and it has been great, I have come to believe that Jesus was set up to fail (it was part of the divine plan) to show that no religion actually works and causes divisions – unrighteous ones. It creates the worship of religion and its doctrines, over possible - actual - realities!

If "HE" and his apostles could not set up a religion that would stand the test of time and would really show “Christ-like love” and uniformity – then it would not be possible. I believe he was used as an instrument “in Name” (for I believe Paul was the actual tool) to set Christianity up to fail.

God deserves more credit, than to think that he is as haphazard in his inspiring, as he is in passing it down accurately.



posted on Sep, 6 2008 @ 02:35 PM
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I believe the church set itself up for it`s own down fall. I believe their intentions was to use the bible as a way to control the masses. I mean, I`ve had some say that you could go to hell for not following what the book says. And if you have questions and seek answers, you have to talk to a priest to get the truth. What they forget, is that people sometimes even question the answers they get from the priests, and then go about searching on their own. That is why many who find answers without the church, are classified as possessed by the devil or a demon. Because many of the answers found outside of the church and bible are not the same thing they want you to believe.

What is there to fear from all of this? Nothing at all. The old scare tactic doesn`t work anymore. Who`s going to hell? Only those who feel that they should create it for themselves.



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