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New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

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posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 01:57 PM
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I constantly question my beliefs, and they are constantly reaffirmed. I don't believe in luck, chance, or coincidence anymore.

This morning, after dropping my son off at school, I was driving to the store. I was listening to the local Christian station on the radio, as I occasionally do. There was a pastor giving a message as I tuned in, and within moments he had cited Matthew 7:6 and was talking about discernment in whom we give our time to spreading the Gospel message. The devil will try to lead us into situations where we get stuck in a rut going back and forth in pointless arguments that bear no fruit for the Kingdom. I was aware of that here in this thread early on, but I let my emotions draw me back in. That was a mistake on my part.

So, I am done with this thread. I'm sure I won't be missed. Good Wolf, may your journey bear much fruit for you, but most importantly, for Christ and His eternal kingdom.

Goodbye, and God bless.




posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by bruxfain
You call that a rational response? A rational response would have said, "that is not an image of Tamerlane...". It common knowledge througout most of the inhabited world on who Tamerlane is. I posted the image, I didn't intend for anyone to read the article, to illustrate that I could show you a picture of one of the people the Bible is referring to, in this case to the main player, and you will still reject it. God is all around you, you obviously lack the vision to see, the faculty to comprehend or the desire to know. Your cries for evidence is a cop-out.


sigh... You should know that I'm less than enthused about explaining to you what evidence is. You stated that that link you sent was evidence that Adam existed. IT IS NOT. Get over it. It is only a record of some guy named Tamerlane.

sigh...

Will someone with real knowledge please pick up the argument against me? I'm tired of dealing with BS.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 02:51 PM
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Hallelujah!!

Two posts from Icarus dude without Bible verses! Now I feel like we're getting somewhere.

Let's face it, who really likes anyone that spews out Bible verses as the "Answer to Life" for anything! Argh!!!

It's OK to believe in God, but hate religion. Jesus hated religion. Oh, wait, did that Book make it in the final Bible Cannon? I know what did, him talking about Priests walking around the market place all dressed up as men of God. But look at THE most powerful religion in the world. Oops, apparently they preach, but don't read or practice.

Peace!



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 04:09 PM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


I went though the same process. I think logic dictates that a personal antropomorphical god is out of the question, I prefer to think in terms of the absolute reality whatever may be which science discovers day by day, the moral issues should be dealt with using a humanist pragmatic criteria. and about life after death there is a scientific theory about inmortality based on the theory of multiple universes and quantum physics which you can read about in wikipedia and other pages entirely based on solid phisical principles and not "divine revelation" . we have 2 gods, one which we invented(the bible and others) that wants to be worshipped, and a real one(reality)which we have to explore and discover rather than worship.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by knows_but_doesnt

It's OK to believe in God, but hate religion. Jesus hated religion. Oh, wait, did that Book make it in the final Bible Cannon? I know what did, him talking about Priests walking around the market place all dressed up as men of God. But look at THE most powerful religion in the world. Oops, apparently they preach, but don't read or practice.

Peace!


I starred you, thanks! What bugs me the most is the fact that they (the above) don't keep up with any of the latest information coming out from other scholars, scientists, and archeologists. All the new info is exciting and altering.



Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

I went though the same process. I think logic dictates that a personal antropomorphical god is out of the question, I prefer to think in terms of the absolute reality whatever may be which science discovers day by day,

we have 2 gods, one which we invented(the bible and others) that wants to be worshipped, and a real one(reality)which we have to explore and discover rather than worship.


Ditto! I starred you also, thanks!!



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by bruxfain
reply to post by bruxfain

There is nothing civilized about a Pagan. Please put me on Ignore. I don't usually talk to the dead anyway.



....BRRRRAINSSZZ.....



I'm not going to ignore you. It wouldn't sit right.

[edit on 9/4/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 08:52 PM
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Alright this has been a good thread with the exception of some ugly posts.
I've thought about a lot of concepts and ideas, so I'll state this.


On the topic of the bible, I've read through lists of conflictions and outright contradictions. All you need to is google bible contradiction or visit the links in this thread.

After seeing these things, I ruled out an inerrant and perfect bible. I took a closer look at some of the messages inside.

From Luke 6:31, we have the Jesus formulation: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This gives an example of perhaps the most admired and quoted saying by Jesus, not only from Christians, but from nonbelievers alike.

Most people do not realize that Jesus did not originate this saying. K'ung-Tzu (also known as Confucius) also expressed a similar idea, ironically called the Silver Rule. In fact, Golden Rule type thinking occurs in many ancient texts, written long before the invention of Christianity. Michael Shermer (The Science of Good and Evil) claims that the Golden Rule served as the first moral principle, evolved through our Paleolithic ancestors long before religions co-opted, and codified it

At first glance, the rule appears justified. However, upon further consideration we come upon problems. Who says that the receiving person wishes to always get treated the way "we" wish? Would most people like to get treated like a masochist from a masochist? Would an atheist like to get treated like a Christian? Would a Christian like to get treated as an atheist?

Golden Rules work best when applied within in-group thinking where its members share common beliefs (religious dominations, armies, political parties, clubs, etc.), but when applied across differing belief-sets, the Golden Rule can have devastating results that can lead to hurt feelings, anger, and violence

Note: many studies of rule based systems (including ethics, game theory, and computer simulations) reveal two rules that always lose: the Golden Rule and the Iron Rule. The systems that work best involve Tit-For-Tat strategies that include many situational rules.


I suddenly became sus on the "devine moral teachings" in the book. Then I found this.

On which I wrote this.


Then I asked myself, why do I believe what I believe in the first place? It wasn't a conclusion I reached on my own but one that had been pushed on me by the local Church starting at Sunday school.

I now think that this system is evil because it robs some from an opportunity to reach their own conclusions. It's like we're still under the oppressive Catholic Church that burns at the stake for hieracy.

I hinted in my OP, everything I had yet experienced of an ethereal nature, could be explained in science by psychology, and that the conclusion that it was God was a read-in-to-the-evidence conclusion, and thus, simply wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking, aside, I can't be anything but agnostic. God hasn't come for me beyond reasonable doubt so that's what I'm waiting for.

If God:
A) Is all powerful, and
B) actually cares,
..then he'll come but he hasn't yet.



Anyone who can see from my perspective should check this site. Tis great.



[edit on 9/5/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 10:16 PM
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reply to post by knows_but_doesnt
 


Well then, Lord forgive me, here's one more just for you.



Psalm 1

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 11:03 PM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising
 


Ah, more scaremongering and condemnation I see. I Thought we'd seen the back of you, Ich.



Originally posted by Icarus Rising
I constantly question my beliefs, and they are constantly reaffirmed.


Now there's an oxymoron for ya!









[edit on 9/5/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 03:39 AM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising
 


Thanks! But see it's like this. I don't believe in religion. I don't dislike or hate people involved in religion, just don't believe it's the "truth, the light, the way" so to speak. There are MANY other religions, maybe yours is the one that is wrong. Maybe you have the wrong savior of the month club. What if? I'm not talking faith. I'm talking hard reality. I dare you to read or study the "what if" out there. Are you saying a billion+ Muslims are all wrong? Care to take on that fight big guy? What about the thousands of other cultures on our planet, that have savior stories just like Christ, but different? Are they all doomed to death because they were taught wrong?

btw, I do go to the Catholic Church a couple blocks from here, but only once a year. They hold a beer/wine event complete with a live band, beer wagon, carnival for the kids, and everyone gets WASTED! I don't drink, but I sure enjoy watching all the "Church" people!!

Oh wait, thou shalt not judge... Do I judge them? You bet I do! You get a 6 if you trip but don't spill, an 8 for missing your chair but not spilling, and a 10 if you fall while dancing but keep your cup upright like it's the nectar of the Gods! (humor time over)

Dude, for the love of God and yourself, read something that pertains to religious facts. I'm not telling you to change your beliefs, but trying to help you understand that there is WAY more out there than the one EDITED down version of the King James play book. And YES, I've read it front to back, more than once. Always fall asleep through Chronicles though, is there a reader’s digest version of that?

Look at it this way, you can go out and read about stuff to better help your verse quoting! Knowledge is power ;-)



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 04:00 AM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 



Originally posted by Good Wolf

From Luke 6:31, we have the Jesus formulation: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This gives an example of perhaps the most admired and quoted saying by Jesus, not only from Christians, but from nonbelievers alike.

Most people do not realize that Jesus did not originate this saying.


Yes. The Golden Rule. Some parts of bible are continuation of some very old teachings, originating from China, Egypt and India. Book of Revelations are quite literally borrowed from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Those who hasn't realized these are helplesly fooled to believe that bible is original. It is not, but it is not false either (expect perhaps for most parts hehe). But yeah, to make up a good religion, borrow the good teachings of others, put in some of your own crap and then supress the former religions of which your religion is based on, so that no one knows anymore where the original teachings came from


Anyways, I am still arguing that bible isn't that bad if you know how to read it: For those who think that the 'Exodus' is literal description of exile of judean people, did you know what Israel stands for? And what the Egypt stands for? OK, you do
But could they perhaps be allegorical entities, descriping the matter and spirit? No? How'bout Israel = Isis, Ra, El? Okay, if not, then not. I'll go away


Sincerely,

-v



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 04:27 AM
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reply to post by v01i0
 


No you're absolutely right. The bible is as fated to have good messages as it is to inspire war and people like Vlad Tepes. Man was that guy all about spreading the love. I mean, not many people know that one of Adolf Hitler's main inspirations was a little book called On the Jews and their Lies, written by the father of modern Christianity, Martin Luther. Huh.


It's all about being discerning.


We need to get past the religion that divide us, because it's not about religion, or gender or race or class or money or sexual orientation. We need to set aside our differences and come together and take up arms as brothers against the threat of a Zombie Infestation!

WHO'S WITH ME!!!!!!

[edit on 9/5/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 05:17 AM
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I believe there is a God. However, I don't believe that organized religion has anything to do with him. They're brainwashing centers. Cults on a large scale and officially recognized by the world governments. They have been (knowingly, or unknowingly) been manipulating the minds of men for thousands upon thousands of years - and they are DAMNED good at what they do.

Even in today's high-tech society, most of the world is convinced enough by it to ignore the physical realities of (god's own creation) and instead turn to bronze age fables, myths, legends, and parables to get their "truths".

To quote Aron Ra:



If there really was one true god, it should be a singular composite of every religion’s gods, an uber-galactic super-genius, and the ultimate entity of the entire cosmos. If a being of that magnitude ever wrote a book, then there would only be one such document; one book of God. It would be dominant everywhere in the world with no predecessors or parallels or alternatives in any language, because mere human authors couldn’t possibly compete with it. And you wouldn’t need faith to believe it, because it would be consistent with all evidence and demonstrably true, revealing profound morality and wisdom far beyond contemporary human capacity. It would invariably inspire a unity of common belief for every reader. If God wrote it, we could expect no less. But what we see instead is the very opposite of that.


I know I use his videos a lot, but WOW... he makes some great arguments.

(Full video if you care to watch)


[edit on 5-9-2008 by Lasheic]



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by Lasheic
To quote Aron Ra:



If there really was one true god, it should be a singular composite of every religion’s gods, an uber-galactic super-genius, and the ultimate entity of the entire cosmos. If a being of that magnitude ever wrote a book, then there would only be one such document; one book of God. It would be dominant everywhere in the world with no predecessors or parallels or alternatives in any language, because mere human authors couldn’t possibly compete with it. And you wouldn’t need faith to believe it, because it would be consistent with all evidence and demonstrably true, revealing profound morality and wisdom far beyond contemporary human capacity. It would invariably inspire a unity of common belief for every reader. If God wrote it, we could expect no less. But what we see instead is the very opposite of that.



Incredibly well articulated.



About the video: It's times like these that I hate being on dial-up.



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 08:11 AM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


No worries. Aron Ra puts up a link in all his videos to full transcrips of his essays. The pages they're on are just plain text. Very dial-up friendly.

2nd Foundational Falsehood of Creationism

Link to his videos page
The rest of his videos are here (13 in the Foundational Falsehoods series), and the transcripts are linked to each one under the "More Info" option on the right.



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by Good Wolf
All you need to is google bible contradiction or visit the links in this thread.


Sigh.

www.thedevineevidence.com...
www.tektonics.org...
www.tektonics.org...
www.christiananswers.net...



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


I found the video fascinating! Being a believer in God and having had evidence of him in my life, I then have to attempt to understand why? Why, all of this religious mess we have on this earth, and its books?

It is my belief that he allows a lot to happen and not always because he does not care, but often to expose, or reveal, what is accurate. He allowed the Bible to be written but what could have been his motives?

I have had too much evidence of him existing. The more I learn, the more he shows himself to me - usually in very abstract ways. He has weaned me off the Bible and certainly - religion. I am a foe of religion. Perhaps the reality is; he is also?

So to set religious mankind up to fail, could he have actually assisted the Bible to be written for the eventual downfall of mankind? Could it be that he allowed something to be created in which would later (today) be part of the real "age of enlightenment?" - Beyond the enlightenment age of the 18th century?

I don't know about you, but I thrive on this new enlightenment! The more truths that get exposed - the better. In saying that, IMO it is important to "feel" if it is right. The Bible contains truths along with lies. It is important for the scholar or the studious to weigh the information to see what is accurate Godly truth and what is manufactured.

Thanks for that post!



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by Lasheic
 


I finally downloaded the video. My God, it's so concise and well strung together that it is almost comical yet completely serious at the same time!

I'm gonna download the whole lot.


I already knew about how they thought to paint strips on a cow which then gave birth to a striped cow. Lol.

My particular favourite example of stupidity is when Jesus did his nut at a tree that had no fruit on it (because it was out of season). Lolcakes.



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


From one of your listed sources:


As we have seen throughout this discussion, most contradictions are resolved upon examination of the original Hebrew and Greek texts. Others need only to be read within their context. Scribal errors can be compared against earlier texts to reveal the contradiction is indeed just that- a scribal error. So the next time you are faced with verses that seemingly contradict each other, do some research and you will see that the majority of conflicts can be resolved by simple and obvious methods.


I like you. You remind me of me, a lot of years ago! But with that said, I could not let this go.

This is an invalid argument as there aren't any original Greek texts to base anything on or to reference to!! This was deliberately or naively left out of this article. I am betting that this theologian knows this, but is keeping quiet!

Most theologians are aware of this fact but choose to keep the religious masses blinded. It is easy to research, ask any qualified Biblical scholar - or research books yourself.

It takes all the authority out of his testimony. It is credulity!

"Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't." - Mark Twain



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 


I like you, too!


Anyways, as for the author you quoted- quick note. I am that 'theologian.' That is my personal site.
And no, it was not 'purposely' left out because I mention elsewhere on the site the original manuscripts do to not exist, sadly. That is simply a fact and I don't deny it. However, most original texts don't exist from that era dealing with anything. The best survived texts were stone. Then there are those 'paper texts' that defy the odds like the Dead Sea Scrolls but such things are very, very rare. MOST original texts do not exist from that era but are all copies.

Anyways, if you look carefully at the quote, you will mention I never suggest they are the originals. I use the word 'earlier.' As in, from some of the oldest Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that do actually exist.

Let's use one common example skeptics frequently present and why I suggest that the reader look at the 'earlier texts' and 'original languages.' In the English translations, the owl is described and listed among 'birds.' Well, the bat clearly is not a bird. However, in the Hebrew, the word simply means 'winged creature.' So when I say resort to the original languages, that is what I am referring to. Some Christians will tell you (mostly the avid supporters of the KJV) the Bible is inerrant. I simply cannot believe this. I do not believe it is inerrant in any translation. It is impossible due to the problems of idioms and the evolution of languages. But I do believe they get the point of salvation across to the reader- the main and most important reason for the Bible.

So I am not saying to go to a museum and read the originals by the apostles or OT prophets themselves because most people who know the evidence know those no longer exist. What I am saying is, go to the earliest source possible and consult the original languages of the Bible (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) and not secondary English translations when you are engaging in higher textual criticism. Hope that helps.

Then when you compare older texts, let's say the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Masoretic text, there are discrepancies such as scribal errors in characters. It's just the way it goes. Some people will balk at that but I don't know what else to tell them without lying. It's just the way it is. The salvation message never changes but things like the census in Numbers or how many horses Solomon had (not really a major issue) will have scribal errors. It's a frustrating fact for people like me but it is still a fact and I won't deny it. Scribal errors definitely took place.



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