It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

page: 13
8
<< 10  11  12    14  15  16 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 07:22 AM
link   

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by bruxfain

That's your response? Figures.

Tamerlane is well known to be, apparently outside of the Western world, a son of Japheth. That is also the most accurate depiction you will see concerning the appearance of Adam, and all you can come up with is Trolls, whatever that means. Please produce a "rational" response.


Well, sorry, I honestly thought you were a troll. A troll, since you don't seem to know, is someone who posts on sites only to disrupt the flow and usually post things that have no bases. I believed you were a troll because you post something and say it is evidence when it clearly is not. Do you know what evidence is? How could you even jokingly call that evidence? *Scratches head*
According to your definition of evidence, Paul Bunyan and his giant ox must have been true. After all, they wrote about it in the past. I don't suppose they knew how to lie in the past, so every single article from the past must be true. Surely you see the lack of logic you present?


Originally posted by bruxfain
This is to illustrate that for some people there is no amount of evidence that can be provided so that they can see what it completely obvious and well known to be the case.


Completely obvious that Adam existed? Only about as 'obvious' as santa claus. You can't be serious. I just don't understand how someone can be so biased. You believe what you want to believe.


You call that a rational response? A rational response would have said, "that is not an image of Tamerlane...". It common knowledge througout most of the inhabited world on who Tamerlane is. I posted the image, I didn't intend for anyone to read the article, to illustrate that I could show you a picture of one of the people the Bible is referring to, in this case to the main player, and you will still reject it. God is all around you, you obviously lack the vision to see, the faculty to comprehend or the desire to know. Your cries for evidence is a cop-out.

The whole cast of characters from the Bible could be all around you, in fact, and you would not accept it. It doesn't matter because you will believe what you want to believe. I could produce birth certificates, photographs, social security and library cards and you'd still say you have no evidence. I could show correspondence between Tamerlane and a Chinese emperor and you'd still question the existence of both. According to you, the whole of human history is full of pathological liars where only their written works have survived to the present day and only now in the present time does anyone tell or search for the truth.

P.S.

What is evidence, Counsel?

[edit on 4-9-2008 by bruxfain]




posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 07:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by bruxfain
Your cries for evidence is a cop-out.


If your going to debate with an atheist or an agnostic, this is the level your going to have to work at. We don't deal in faith. We want something beyond reasonable doubt.



The whole cast of characters from the Bible could be all around you, in fact, and you would not accept it. It doesn't matter because you will believe what you want to believe. I could produce birth certificates, photographs, social security and library cards and you'd still say you have no evidence.


Do it and prove yourself right. Otherwise, don't make assumptions and personal attacks.

[edit on 9/4/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 08:04 AM
link   
reply to post by Good Wolf
 


Hello Good Wolf. I must respectfully state that following answers to your questions are merely opinions of one fool:


Originally posted by Good Wolf
1) Does a God(s) exist? and,
2) Is there an afterlife?


1) Look around - Can't you see it everywhere? What do you think that created everything? Natural biological proceses perhaps? A chance? Maybe, but I believe there is a fundamental law beyond everything - the superior will, which gave birth to all that exists. If you want call it natural proceses, it is fine by me. I call it God, and keeping this in mind, I need to say 'yes' for you. I don't want to form a static opinion about superior God as I cannot never cannot comprehend it decently. It is unimaginable, everywhere and eternal.

2) No, there is not afterlife in a sense that our personality would sustain after death. We make our paradise or hell right here. Ever wondered why they say that those who kill themselves, won't get into heaven? Think about it in the light above statement: "We make our paradise or hell right here", right in this life that is so brief moment in our existence. A person that kills oneself, is already in hell. The only way out of this hell for one's deceived mind is the suicide. If they kill themselves, they will never get into heaven. In other words, they will never improve the quality of their life again!

But I understand that there is existence after death, as there were before we were born. What gave birth to us unless not will? If I must explain myself more, I can only refer to the Plato's theory of forms (the ideas). The idea of human (the human race itself) is the will of God manifested in matter. We inherit our qualities from this idea (or form). Top of that, we inherit qualities more specified from our parents. And yet, in our lives we mold ourselves into something (including the influences of environment). So in this sense, we are quite eternal beings, and this life is only really a fart in our existence.

This was the opinion of the fool. I hope you may get something out of it.

Sincerely,

-v



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 08:18 AM
link   
reply to post by v01i0
 


I'm betting you skipped from page 1 to page 13. I mean no disrespect but I'm thinking that is it means that the thread is starting again.

That aside. I can certainly appreciate you view.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 08:22 AM
link   
reply to post by Good Wolf
 


You got it right
Too many pages to read and I just wanted a shot in the dark in case I hit anything. These 'spiritual' threads just tend to produce some lenghty answers and I already seen most of the answers and am familiar with most of the opinions regarding this subject so I didn't bother
What may have I missed?

Be well,

-v



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 08:43 AM
link   
reply to post by v01i0
 


I want to clarify something I should have done ages ago:


As I outlined in my OP on that thread, I was worried that any belief in a higher power was purely fear motivated.

My self and a friend of mine recently exited the church. With the bible irrational and the idea that Jesus may never have existed before long we were both facing some heavy questions about whether the even is a God.

My friend very quickly decided that there was not a higher power and that any belief in God was going to be wishful thinking.

If God does not exist then life is meaningless and there is no afterlife. Suddenly, I was mortal and afraid.

I decided that once I put my fear and mortality aside I would go on a hunt for anything that could help me believe that a God may exist beyond reasonable doubt and only then could I have an unbiased belief system.

That was what the purpose was behind the thread although now in retrospect, that's not what it came to be about.

This is where I am.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 08:52 AM
link   

Originally posted by Good Wolf

Originally posted by bruxfain
Your cries for evidence is a cop-out.


If your going to debate with an atheist or an agnostic, this is the level your going to have to work at. We don't deal in faith. We want something beyond reasonable doubt.



The whole cast of characters from the Bible could be all around you, in fact, and you would not accept it. It doesn't matter because you will believe what you want to believe. I could produce birth certificates, photographs, social security and library cards and you'd still say you have no evidence.


Do it and prove yourself right. Otherwise, don't make assumptions and personal attacks.

[edit on 9/4/2008 by Good Wolf]



The only proof I will provide for you is this: On October 13th, the last of the artificial (science based) constructs will expire. About a week prior to this and up to the the American presidential elections many governments will cease to function and will collapse, necessitating snap elections and so forth. How they transition themselves to properly functioning natural states is outlined in their respective constitutions.

There will be a minimum of social upheaval, as the anarchists, atheists, etc. (aka the enemies of order) will have lost the remainder of what little power they still have. No World War, no economic collapse, just the "Changing of the Guard" happening quietly and smoothly, as per the design. The price of oil and other criticle commodities will stabilize and the dollar with strengthen as uncertainty will diminish. All goverments will soon be under the control of the True King.

If you want to prove me wrong, you'll have to do more than debate, this is going to require action on your part. The power that is going to make this happen, you don't happen to believe in so I am not sure how you intend to stop it. However, since this is not proof until it happens we will see what is what on November 5th.

It's actually already begun, at least four major problem states have ceased to function properly in the past two weeks: Canada, Japan, Thailand, Pakistan. Israel has already stopped working and its Prime Minister will resign by the end of the month.

The list of holdouts such as Iran, Venezuela and North Korea, examples of the most brutal artificial states, while they may be able to hold on to power in their respective regions, they'll have zero influence outside their own borders and they'll slowly evaporate and transition by natural processes. But I don't want to rule out the possibility that they'll implode in a spectacular fashion, but such a thing would not be within anyones interests.

See, from my point of view atheists, anarchists, racists, sexists, are the problem in this world and the harbringers of faulty belief systems, so War has been brought upon them. You will witness the destruction of your ideal state and find yourself being completely dominated by believers in all aspects of your life. The White House will be occupied by evangelicals and those who are weak of faith, will be standing around in absolute shock as to what is really going down.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:00 AM
link   
reply to post by Good Wolf
 


I pretty well understood this from the beginning. I know that you have now abandoned your immature belief in christianity, which is another step on a way to true belief; you may find it or you may not. I hope you do, because faith is one of the most powerful resources of being. Faith is (IMO) derived from will, and will takes you through stone if necessary (a metaphor yes).

You say that bible is illogical and contradictory, and that is true especially when one reads it from word to word without understanding some metaphors and symbolics related to 'occult'. Of course, there is loadful of schaisse in bible, for it is book written by men that thought they know God. Some of them really had a hunch. For example, exile in bible is not exile in physical sense. Genesis is not a description about creation of world.

You really have to become an alchemist, occultist and a heretic to understand some text in bible correctly. Most of the christians do not have a clue the true meaning of christianity. And belonging into church that itself doesen't have a clue is the most severe error. I'm kinda glad you 'divorced' from it. Jesus was not historical person (or he was, but not the biblical one). You can find same 'archetype' of Jesus from Joshua, the Ecclesiastes and so on, even from Sokrates.

Well, I won't go further right now for I have to go. All I can really say, and this most likely has been already repeated to you dozens times: "Know yourself, and you know the universe and it's gods."

Don't belong any organization, don't take my word of it or anybody else's. Just do as you have done so far, think individually and find the God within.

Sincerely,

-v

PS. I still haven't read the whole thread. So sorry if I am repeating. Bye for now.

[edit on 4-9-2008 by v01i0]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:11 AM
link   
reply to post by bruxfain
 


Imagine Jimmy Carr is saying the following:

Yea- Brux, I'm not exactly sure how a prediction constitutes 'Proof'.

Why not 'ave another go, eh.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:13 AM
link   
reply to post by v01i0
 


Nah 'sall right. 90% of the posts havn't been about anything past the first question.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:17 AM
link   

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by bruxfain
 


Imagine Jimmy Carr is saying the following:

Yea- Brux, I'm not exactly sure how a prediction constitutes 'Proof'.

Why not 'ave another go, eh.


I stated that it is not proof until it happens. Besides the prediction is based on Analysis of what is currently occuring in the world you live in. This is already happening. Apparently everyone on this site can see this except you.

This is a situation where I am willing to sit here and make you watch it all unfold. See for yourself who is in control here; Men or God.

Its funny that while you admit to be so uncertain, you are suprised than noone else is.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:27 AM
link   
reply to post by bruxfain
 


What I'm surprised at is that you are reading the apokalypse into the worlds current state of affairs.

If anything all that tells me is that you are another religious nut case but I do not wish to drop to the level of mocking other posters.

Have you seen this thread? www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hope is not dead.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:32 AM
link   
reply to post by Good Wolf
 


A religious nut? Didn't you just request that I not attack the person a few threads up? I guess you believe the rules don't apply to you. Does that make you a borderline socioopath who will certainly end up in prison somewhere?

What apocalypse are you talking about? I simply made a prediction regarding a War that everyone knows is being fought.

You are a sociopath, Ron Paul is having a rally of his own because the Republican party doesn't want to have anything to do with him. That guy was out west printing his own money up until last year. and every recent prediction he's made has been wrong.

Dude, don't take economic and political advice from a gynecologist.

[edit on 4-9-2008 by bruxfain]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:40 AM
link   
reply to post by bruxfain
 


I am so very close to hitting ignore, but I bet some where in your strange mind that you would some how derive pleasure from it.

Do you want a soapbox? Or do you want to bring the thread down to playground namecalling level.

You seem to hate civilised debate.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:47 AM
link   
reply to post by Good Wolf
 


I don't think fickle is the word for it at all.

fickle - changeable or unstable in affection, interest, loyalty, etc.

Actually, fickle aptly describes you and your relationship with Christ at this point. Nice try, though.

I'm dedicated. I continue to quote Scripture because my tools as a dedicated Christian are prayer and The Word. If you read the link to My Epiphany, I would like to add that I prayed during those moments to be allowed to carry it forward, to be the sharpest sword, the truest spear, the most effective weapon in the Lord's arsenal against evil. Obviously, I am still working on that.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 09:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by bruxfain
 


I am so very close to hitting ignore, but I bet some where in your strange mind that you would some how derive pleasure from it.

Do you want a soapbox? Or do you want to bring the thread down to playground namecalling level.

You seem to hate civilised debate.


There is nothing civilized about a Pagan. Please put me on Ignore. I don't usually talk to the dead anyway.

[edit on 4-9-2008 by bruxfain]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 10:11 AM
link   
reply to post by Icarus Rising
 




Fear and doubt are the province of the devil. If you are experiencing fear and doubt, imo you are under attack by the evil one. Satan likes nothing better than to separate a believer from God. The apostasy is prophesied, and I believe it is well under way. Don't let it happen to you.


What pure utter manipulative fear provoking BS!

If there were a real live devil (and there is not) his tactic would be to stop folks from questioning and blindly follow BS like that above.


[edit on 4-9-2008 by whatsup]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 10:12 AM
link   
1. Afterlife-sure it exists even in the realm of science. If energy can be neither created nor destroyed, (1st law of thermal dynamics) but can be converted to different forms. We are all made of energy in one particular form. Upon death, that energy simply changes form be it the physical body, the mind, or the energy fired in the synapses in the brain.

2. The existence of God-because one's definition of god changes from time and culture, it really depends on one's definition of god. The evidence could go both ways and argued forever. Hyper dimensional physics points to something else beyond randomness in the Universe so great question on that issue.



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 10:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by Good Wolf
If anything all that tells me is that you are another religious nut case...



Originally posted by bruxfain
A religious nut?



Originally posted by bruxfain
There is nothing civilized about a Pagan. Please put me on Ignore. I don't usually talk to the dead anyway.


Forgive me to interrupt your loathethrowing, but I guess bruxfain has shown his true nature
Not a religious nut eh? Then not speaking to dead pagan? Well you definately showed your level of 'civilization'.

So Wolf, you have then inclined to think in atheist manner, or would I say agnostic? I hope the later really, for I think that atheist which is opposite to theist is in a way just as believer than theist. You see, they both believe in something


Anyway, agnostism is an understandable position. Been there myself. However, few years later I became something else; now my 'theism' is based on personal experience and observations. And I must say, while the christianity is not my ground, it has lot of valuable things for those that understand. However, I don't want to push anybody anywhere, and besides that would just cause resistance. I am sure that intelligent people will find God just by themselves. Or even the stupid does, I will do as an example!

Once I thought I knew a lot, then I realized I knew nothing. Now I have admit that I still know nothing - I must declare as empirist, there is no other choice for me. I have lost respect to all mundane authorities - they are merely just for control and oppression. But of course, to some extent that control and oppression is necessary considering the average stage of development of human mind.

I must say I'm bit pessimist, but pessimist never gets disappointed!

All the best,

-v

[edit on 4-9-2008 by v01i0]



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 12:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by bruxfain

See, from my point of view atheists, anarchists, racists, sexists, are the problem in this world and the harbringers of faulty belief systems, so War has been brought upon them. You will witness the destruction of your ideal state and find yourself being completely dominated by believers in all aspects of your life. The White House will be occupied by evangelicals and those who are weak of faith, will be standing around in absolute shock as to what is really going down.


It will truly be interesting to see what does indeed happen and Who will be "weeping and gnashing their teeth!"

It is possible that your predictions will go awry.




Originally posted by v01i0


You really have to become an alchemist, occultist and a heretic to understand some text in bible correctly. Most of the christians do not have a clue the true meaning of christianity. And belonging into church that itself doesen't have a clue is the most severe error. I'm kinda glad you 'divorced' from it. Jesus was not historical person (or he was, but not the biblical one). You can find same 'archetype' of Jesus from Joshua, the Ecclesiastes and so on, even from Sokrates.


Don't belong any organization, don't take my word of it or anybody else's. Just do as you have done so far, think individually and find the God within.


Couldn't agree with you more!! The point is; to follow the Truth and keep searching for it. A lot of truth has been revealed to me and I stand by it. But first, I had to go searching for it. Everything in its own due time does get revealed, but I might add...not to everyone.

This is where I believe that the truth, will leave everyone in the dust! Those who are so sure of their beliefs (look above), will be the most startled.

I have often been shocked in my journey to learn that; most of what I had been taught has been wrong. The temptation has been to throw it all out, but then, I would have missed the opportunity to gain insight that I don't find most people are privy to.

If we make our decisions fanatical, ie; fanatical God, or fanatically disbelieving him, we are no different than the masses, and then reality becomes; he is still being misunderstood!

Being a realist has saved me from my earlier self and the preaching from the advocates of the; "so-called truths."



new topics

top topics



 
8
<< 10  11  12    14  15  16 >>

log in

join