New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty.

Irrationality,

I am not sure what's irrational of what I am trying to explain to you. Please advise.

I once taught economics. I would tak myself blue in face trying to explain the marginal principle. One student referred to the discussion as giberish. It was as if they unable to draw a link between concepts and what they already knew to be true in their daily lives. You have the same problem.

You asked does God exist. You live in the same world as me and have access to the same information I do, but you're not able for some reason to observe an event that is known to have occured and explain, even partially, how it relates to everything else. Its all linked together. Some people can see this but you see only a world of chaos where one thing has nothing to do with another.

For example, the concept of Love even confounds you. You want to reduce it to physical or chemical phenomenon or even psychosis, while you could go even deeper and explain it as interactions of sub-atomic particles. This reveals that even when you explain things outside of a religious framework you've chosen to put limits on your own ability to understand. It really doesn't seem like you're searching for the truth but only trying to justify confusion, while trapped inside of a box.

In a world of Infinite possibilities, Irrationality is certain. When you are truly outside of the box, dealing with irrationality is to be expected and embraced.

Around the same time I developed my working definition of Evil, I developed a theory concerning abnormal and/or irrational behavior. It's as follows:

If a person from time to time does not knowingly do something totally irrational, it implies that every decision one makes is rational. So, if every decision one makes is rational, then why do people make mistakes? The simplest answer is that sometimes the irrational decision is the correct one.

Since you are into occam's razor you can appreciate this.

Originally posted by Matrix1111

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I'm desperately looking for the answer to two questions:

1) Does a God(s) exist? and,
2) Is there an afterlife?

Have you asked the voice that you hear these questions? I would be interested to hear what answers you got.

It's a funny thing. It's gone. If it was God we has gone eerily silent but I think it was me and with the belief of God it was slowly becoming almost disembodied, growing into an internalised God façade.

reply to post by TruthParadox


God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He does not cause us confusion, we cause ourselves confusion with our limited perspectives. We have trouble thinking in terms of outcomes and seeing the end from the beginning. We simply don't understand the big picture most of the time, and we need to rely on God to reveal His truth to us as it is needed to achieve His will for us. Paradoxical.

reply to post by bruxfain


Alright, chill out man.

What your proposing has too many assumptions to be spouted as truth when the much simpler and less assuming atheist take on the Cosmos is the more rational option

That's the point of Occam's Razor.

But, you seem to forget that I'm not atheist. I havn't said there is no God, I have said that I think it's less likely, but I never said there was no God. So in that uncertainty, what do I have to rely on to ensure my best chances of finding the truth? Occam's Razor, which right now dictates that I lean towards atheism, anything else is irrational and would likely be biased.

[edit on 9/3/2008 by Good Wolf]

Hey Wolf thanks for adding me as friend and for writing in my profile,I feel honored and I am really thankful you want to be my friend.

I know you dont want to hear any preaching but something has really been nagging me to at least to tell you this one thing ok .I know you say you know the word really well but I am just making sure you are aware of this one thing .Before you go and step out too much into the world .

2Pe 2:18 ¶ For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Talk with ya later.

Wait one more thing I wanted to tell you
I have a 20 year old son who is in about the same boat as you
The only difference is that he was not pushed into Church and I dont try and push him into believing about God either,I do tell him about the Lord and fill him in on what I know about the bible and God .But I chose to let him find out on his own as much as possible .Because you cannot force feed people into anything ,It causes even more rebellion.The Lord does not want anyone to come just because they think they have to .He wants them to come to him because they want to.
Anyway thats why your close to my heart you remind me of my son.
I do really care about you I hope you know that .

reply to post by Simplynoone


I see where your coming from. But I disagree with what those passages imply in this situation. I don't see that doing an internal investigation for God can make me worse of than what I was before.

2 Peter 2:22 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV)
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

This is like for a once-saved strumpet who goes back to the whore house once she dropped God.

This is different because never before has God been so important to me.

"New ex-Christian who is lost in his own freedom and uncertainty"

I know where I've come from and I'm not going back. My uncertainty means I don't know my destination.

The old me (I call Paul) has been dead for years and he isn't coming back.


And yes you seem to genuinely care, that's why I friend'd you.

Originally posted by Good Wolf

It's a funny thing. It's gone. If it was God we has gone eerily silent but I think it was me and with the belief of God it was slowly becoming almost disembodied, growing into an internalised God façade.

Too bad you didn't ask the "voice" these questions before you gave up your Christian faith. Even if it was just you, it would have been interesting.

Have you looked into the role of the pineal gland in religious experiences?

[I know where I've come from and I'm not going back]

I am so glad to hear that .
Just be careful ok
You know that the world is rough and you can get a cold heart if you just plain stop careing about anything and everything and it can suck you in and not let you go .

Which reminds me I wanted to share a poem I wrote .
Because I have also been where you are now .

Life Is A Gift To Thee

Don't let the night take you away,
Shadows will persuade you to go
Into the dark of your soul.
Your heart will fade slowly, sinking into despair
And there will be no one there.
No comfort no light, nothing will seem right.
Your own existence will be questioned.
There is a place in ones soul to go
Where there is no coming back.
With no hope inside and full of pride
The darkness will be your reward.
Playing on the edge will trap you
Resist evil and it will flee from you.
Reach in and take hold of the light
Embrace the love of God.
One life,one heart, one soul
Don't let it go.
Life is worth living,
Fulfill your purpose
Stand firm in righteousness.
Hang on and be strong, let love lead you,
Darkness is past, and this life won't last
Let the sun shine in your heart
Then you will see
That life is a gift to thee.

May God Bless You All.

Hope you dont think it is corny ..it really is from my heart.




[edit on 3-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

Your like some kinda maternal pseudo-hippie.


[yawn] so very-tired..... colld handsmuscles failing to type.... must---gg---to---bed..


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Your like some kinda maternal pseudo-hippie. ]

LOL yeah I told you I was just an ole hippie .

Night hon sleep well .

Forget about all religions for the moment. All you have to do is treat people with respect. Don't knowingly go out of your way to hurt anyone. If you can help someone, do so but don't go out of your way to help those who dont appreciate or need your help. Try not to gossip about people (I know its hard) . Look after your neighbours and friends and if you have a lucky streak dont brag about it because next week you could lose the lot and be back in the gutter with the rest of us.
Its not religion that counts but your spirituality. . .

If you follow my rules, be the best you can and try not to pi** to many people off then you should be alright.
I'm sure if there's a god the last thing he wants is to see is your face in church every week praying to him. He knows you're okay! He wants to see the ones who have never been and might be on the verge of doing something stupid.
You sound like you'll be okay to me. Peace.

reply to post by Good Wolf


Jesus said something that has a deeper meaning than it first appears. He said ask and you will receive, seek and you will find. In other words, there are two ways to find Him:

1). The easy way: Just believe, ask, and receive.

2). The hard way: Seek, research, dig, and find.

I took the second option and my conversion took several years of looking into the evidence before finally accepting Christ.

You're not alone, Good Wolf. Two examples: One were the Bereans mentioned in the New Testament who didn't swallow the Gospel without question. They compared what they were being taught to the Old Testament scripture, questioned, researched, and contemplated the message before accepting it. Then one of the early church fathers, Hegesippus, didn't accept the Gospel immediately either. His writings show him traveling throughout Rome and Greece interviewing witnesses, comparing texts, looking through government records, and all sorts of other things before finally accepting the Gospel account as fact. We're also told a wise man judges all things and are told to use reason in the Scriptures. So, questioning is fine.

There is also evidence. There is prophetic fulfillment that passes the test of falsifiability and the scientific method, undesigned coincidences in the Bible that point towards a divine authorship (the Torah codes, the Gospel embedded in the genealogies of Genesis, the meaning of numbers written all throughout the Old and New Testaments, etc.), historical documents and archaeological discoveries that confirm some of the most outlandish and hard to believe Bible stories on a historical level, scientific foreknowledge in the Levitical laws and writings, the Gospel embedded in astronomy and astronomical phenomenon coinciding with highly important events of Christianity, etc.

Like you, Good Wolf, I had to have evidence instead of blind faith. It was the long way but it was worth it to me in the end because I no longer have any doubts- not a smidgen. Compounded by several supernatural experiences, God and Jesus are as real to me as my own body. It can be frustrating sometimes to be constantly met with ridicule when you have the truth but that is the way it goes and the way we warned by Jesus Himself it would go.

As for your concerns of the conflicts and contradictions: You need to resort to the actual Greek and Hebrew. The English and other translations will always have problems due to the fact such things are inevitable when a text is translated from one language into the next.

I could go on but it is going to be up to you. There is evidence and there are answers. If you want to seek instead of asking, then seek. You WILL find it.

[edit on 9/3/2008 by AshleyD]

You want to talk about contradictions and inconsistencies, how about wanting to know if God exists and if there is an afterlife, but rejecting the one source that is His record and has revealed Him and His eternal plan to Western Civilization for the last 3500+ years? All of a sudden you know better than all the prophets and are going to use incomplete human logic in an attempt to explain the supernatural character of the living, eternal, Creator God and His boundless glory?

That's not only contradictory and inconsistent, it is ridiculous and ludicrous.

1 Corinthians 1

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Great advice from both of the posters above me .

reply to post by Icarus Rising


Are you talking about those who put the book aside and have gone off in search for their own answers? Please explain this more.

I believe he is saying that your all looking for evidence of historical records and yet there it is in the bible (Yes those men wrote about their experiences as eye witnesses as to what happened ) those are the historical records that you just tossed out as nothing .

Do you really believe that the Jews who hated Christ and hated that he was trying to draw men away from the organized religion of their days ,And the secular Gov of the Romans who also hated Christ for the very same reasons ..
And killed him because of it ..Do you really believe that they would keep documents or allow any thing written about him and what happened to get out amongst the public so that everyone would know about the dirty deeds those in power commited to to Jesus and his followers?
Is that something that even our Gov allows to get out ? No in fact we have to pretty much threaten (with the constitution) to even get a glimps of even some of the documents they have on file about alot of stuff that has happened just in our times to other people that we never will hear about neither will we ever see any real proof that it happened.That doesnt mean it didnt happen ....it means it happened and they sure as heck dont want us to know about it..

I mean even Area 51 stuff is a great example ..We know something happened there and we know that they made coverups galore just to try and keep us thinking nothing really did happen.


No one in power today (Especially organized religions and Govs) want you to believe in Jesus because he didnt stand for what they stand for ..in fact he was against just about everything they were doing and tried to do ..and what they believe (Control and power) ..So why would any of you think that brainwashing people to believe in Jesus (the one they killed because he was so against their ways of doing things ) would work for them ?
That just makes no sense to me .

Actually the closer I get to the real Jesus the farther away I get from Organized Religions and Govs.
So it seems to me that it is working in the opposite direction of what most of you are suggesting .


[edit on 3-9-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Good Wolf


Since my background is similar to yours I can give you my thoughts and perhaps you can relate to them.

I used to be a "Born again Christian" and I decided to stop going to church in my 20's.

For me the idea of a "personal" God was never consistent with anything that I knew, throughout my entire life, although I used to hold some supernatural beliefs such as the belief in "a soul" or the afterlife. I also used to believe that "consciousness" was supernatural and that "free will" existed.

Because of exposure to science, philosophy and logic in college, I eventually found such beliefs to be hard to rationalize and eventually gave up on them.

Giving up on those beliefs was difficult not only because of the fear of the supernatural (death, for example) but also because it was not easy to switch out of the "support system" of friends and family. In fact, the social peer pressure was the strongest of the two things keeping me a christian.

So, if you care to read my present beliefs here there are:
1. There is no evidence of god and belief in god is triggered by fear and certain brain malfunctions that become obvious for some people with epileptic seizures, but can also be induced in "meditation" or prayer. These brain patterns are well understood. Besides that, all of the remaining belief in god is social conditioning, clearly evidenced by how many people believe in god but deep down know it's all BS. Whether god exists or not is not relevant as long as there is no evidence. I am not compelled to "promote" the non-existence of god, and I think atheists with an "agenda" who promote that god does not exist are full of BS just like religious people.

2. The experience of "death" is most likely like the experience of "not having been born" or put another way, no experience at all. It's nothing to be afraid of. The experience of leaving people behind is something I am afraid of as I have a family and I believe that they continue to exist if I die.

3. Consciousness is an illusion that results from having the ability to contemplate ideas about ideas, or the experience of recursive thoughts. Every single one of the outward signs of consciousness can be replicated given enough computing power. This belief is as of yet unproven because of the lack of computing power. A machine that thinks it's conscious is not only doable, it is what we people are.

4. All of our moral code is defined and maintained by evolutionary forces, but there is nothing else outside of the material, human world that can enforce or care for our morals. There is no "true" sense in which things are good or bad, but things are surely good for survival, including empathy towards other fellow human beings. Killing other people is bad because evolution has made us particularly caring for the lives of others as this benefits the species. If we really believed killing is bad in purely logical and absolute terms, then we would not feel more outraged when the victim of crime is a child, yet we do. Children have more survival value for the species and this is encoded inside us.

5. Science itself is guided by dogmatic beliefs, although the set of dogmatic beliefs required for science are also required to do anything, so it is perhaps the lowest possible number of dogmatic beliefs that can be held:
-Belief in some kind of "order" (an illusion created by our order seeking brains)
-belief that we can understand the rules of this order
-belief that the rules don't change from time to time or place to place

Goedel's incompleteness theorem demonstrates that our entire logic system cannot describe itself, so all of our knowledge is just conveniently self consistent, but not transcendentally special.

These summarizes my personal belief system, or as a friend of mine lovingly calls it my "BS". We all have BS.

-rrr

reply to post by Simplynoone


I should have been a little more clear when I made the statement that I did not believe in what the bible says. It`s not the idea that I don`t believe in the book as a whole, it`s parts of it I do not believe. Yes, there are some things that may be true, but, there are other parts that do contradict themselves.

As far as setting it aside to search on our own, who are we to judge others for doing that? Isn`t it the old saying "Seek and ye shale find." "Knock and the door will open.". Does this mean we have to do all of our searching in a book? No, I don`t believe so in my opinion. I don`t judge people for putting ALL of their faith in the bible, if that is what keeps them happy in life, all the better. I don`t like it when others put people down for not believing in the same way that they do. I believe in a creator, and I didn`t have to find Gods existance in a book. I found God within me. So, does that make me wrong?

Who is to care, as long as we find God. Whether we find God within ourselves or a book, or in the person next door or even in the sky above or the Earth below. As long as we make an effort to search. God gave us the free will to grow spiritually on our own, without interference from others.

reply to post by rickyrrr


You speak of consciousness in this way.

3. "Consciousness is an illusion that results from having the ability to contemplate ideas about ideas, or the experience of recursive thoughts. Every single one of the outward signs of consciousness can be replicated given enough computing power. This belief is as of yet unproven because of the lack of computing power. A machine that thinks it's conscious is not only doable, it is what we people are."

So what you are saying is, we are not really aware of the things around us, or those things are all illuions?