Is it wrong to despise alcoholics?

reply to post by IMAdamnALIEN


You know, most of the people reading this thread and posting in it have friends and/or family memebers who are alcoholic.

I guess it's easy for someone who has never been in a drunk's shoes, or never truly known and loved a drunk, to sit in judgment from up top of their high, high moral horse.

Reference all the websites you want, I know what I know from a lifetime of experience, as a kid with my Dad, and now as an adult who has had her own forays into drinking as well as drugs.

Yes, it probably does start out as a choice, but by the time a man is drinking a fifth or more of straight vodka per day and not eating, it isn't a choice anymore, it is a disease. Both the body andmind become dependent on it. If you could see the desperation to stop and not be able to, if you could see the pitiful look a man with the DTs gets in his eye like that, then maybe you'd have a little more sympathy and a little less hatred. And having a drunk roommate in college just does not qualify. From what you've said here, this just doesn't seem like reason enough for you to hate drunks so much.

I went through a lot of s*** with my dad growing up, a lot of anger, frustration, sideways emotions, twisted love, lies, arguments , physical abuse, the list is almost endless with him. I hated him for a long time. He's been dry for about 4 years now, and our relationship is not great, but it's better.

I've never been a true drunk, but I've been a partier. I guess I thank the lord that I had my dad's example, because even though it was hard to live through, at least I know how not to be. At least I know by his example how not to live my life and treat my kids.

Why waste your energy despising people you have no real reason to hate?

Why do you feel the need to be so superior?

And, no, I see no reason to entangle oneself with a person who wants no help. I tried my best to avoid my dad through those years that he drank and wanted no help. It was only after he bottomed out and had to dry up or die that we finally started talking again. As I said, we still don't have a great relationship, but it's better than it ever has been. I guess that now, as an adult, I have a different perspective on the matter.

I feel terrible for him that his brain chemistry has been so out of balance his whole life that he has probably never had a real, honest and close relationship with another person, drinking and drugs aside. He'd be screwed up with or without those things.

There's part of me that wants to hold him and rock him and tell him everything's gonna be ok, because I do love him. I suppose I need to cling to that tiny sweet helpless baby part of him in order to sympathies with and love him. I'd love to be able to relate to him as a normal adult, but I can't, so I take what I can get

I just don't see the point of so much hate. It's a big waste of energy, and it's misplaced, imo.

reply to post by capgrup


That actually may be why everyone has problems. The lack of love.

A lot of disorders have the same sinister beginnings. A genetic predisposition set off by trauma.
narcisstic personality disorders
borderline personality disorders
bipolar disorders
addiction

the genes are there and someone lets them out for you. It doesnt' take much to help someone become one of these devastating illnesses. Many of them come in pairs or more.

it only takes one emotionally absent parent(someone living one of these dieseases themselves) to bring it on.

Emotional absence. Kids thrive on love. You have an emotionally absent parent and that starts the emotional pendelum to swing.

Do you despise them? NO.
It is a disease, and an awful one to beat.

I lost my BIL to a drug overdose. He was a close friend, my brother, and a great guy.
He had a disease he couldn't beat. He had a childhood he couldn't escape from.

There is nothing that is more callous or blackhearted then people who say that addicts should kill themselves. They have never been touched by the disease or the devastation it wreaks on people.

People don't willingly choose to turn into that kind of monster. Did they choose their drugs? Yes, but you are talking about someone who was mentally compromised and was not capable of making rational decisions.

And nobody should ever have to lose a family member to it.

All you can do is be there unless treatment depicts otherwise. But the worst part of this disease is you can't make someone beat it, they have to decide to do it on their own.

many won't seek treatment for feeling weak, or ashamed. The best thing you can do is let your brother know that you think he is a good strong person, and there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed about his disease.

and make sure he gets treatment for the demons that caused the problem in the first place.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
Emotional absence. Kids thrive on love. You have an emotionally absent parent and that starts the emotional pendelum to swing.

lol, there has been a giant Emotional void in my life and it doesn't seem to have damaged me in any way whatsoever.

I still find it funny how people find a "disease" sad and pity the person that has it if he suffers from it himself.

But when a person inflicts harm on others because of a ''disease'', they have no pity for him and wish for him to be tortured.

[edit on 19/8/08 by -0mega-]

reply to post by -0mega-


Again, it is combined with a genetic pre-disposition.

Just because YOU made it personally, doesn't mean others can. That is like saying because one person beat breast cancer, they ALL can.

One person doesn't set the standard.


Have someone pre-disposed to a parent with say bi-polar disorder, then you are automatically born with a chance to get it.

Consider yourself fortunate you got to escape the fray. But don't condemn others because they can't.


Obvious it did affect you by your complete lack of empathy and ability to sweep others under the rug.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by nixie_nox]

reply to post by nixie_nox


Thanks, nixie, for introducing some rationality. I'm personally from a very addictive family, on both sides (though the women on my mother's side were never affected, thankfully), and alcohol's always been part of the problem. What people miss is that nothing is simply about will. People drink, people hurt, people do whatever they logically know is wrong because it helps them emotionally. Alcoholics often drink not because they don't have self-control (though that helps, the lack of self-control is actually usually a symptom of the underlying problem), but because they need to feel emotion they've been suppressing (thus why people from "harder" cultures are more likely to drink - the Irish in my family, too, while the Italians are unaffected). People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Malignant Narcissism (which I suspect my father suffers from as a result of childhood abuse and neglect) have no self-image and hate themselves...and no amount of self-discipline will help them get over that. That sort of thing is actually very difficult to treat; psychotherapy takes years to accomplish even a little. Usually you have to be content with stopping the progression.

But that was somewhat of a tangent - it's not always about self-control. That's why you need to understand those who hurt, because they do it for a reason they probably can't control.

This is such an emotionally charged topic. I was married to an alcoholic for over 3 years and believe me, it was pure hell. The worst part for me was that there was nothing I or anyone else could do to change his drinking. Did he want to stop? Maybe part of him did, but that part never won out. He wound up dead at the age of 42 from liver damage.

Despise him? I did while he was in the midst of some of his alcohol-induced rages. And I did despise him for what I considered wrecking my life as well as his own. Thankfully I got away from him and put a lot of distance between us so I didn't have to personally witness his final decline.

But more than despising him, I pitied him for how much the alcohol totally ruined his life. What a waste.

reply to post by capgrup

this is a tough question. my father and my fiance are both alcoholics. my fiance is a recovering alcoholic and he attends AA meetings almost everynight to stay sober. in my experiance there are people who learn from this disease and can over come it and there are just some people who will die from it. i go to Al-Anon meetings to help support my fiance and father, it also helps me deal with my own issues. i highly recommend it and AA meetings to anyone struggling with this disease.

reply to post by kitken01




My heart goes out to you.

I would have been in your position had I not decided to get out while I was still sane. What you have described is nothing short of tragic and Im sorry for your loss.

Originally posted by LunarLooney1
Alcoholics are selfish, abusive, and never of sound mind.

Really? I'm an alcoholic(ditch the illegal stuff 14 years ago). Is this how you see me? I don't. As to the drunk driving, haven't done it in years. It's about the worst thing you could do.

You've got to watch using a broad brush, it doesn't paint a picture very well.

Originally posted by Heike
Did you happen to notice the references I posted above?

Alcoholism IS a physical thing. Brain scans show differences between the children of alcoholics and "normal" children before they have ever taken a drink.

Oh i read it, i have read many of these studies and they always conflict, however lets assme yours is absolutely true. It still requires them to enter something into their system which they can stop at any time. Whereas torrettes doesn't require the addition of a chemical to cause illnes and so it's a false analogy.

Originally posted by Heike
Long-term alcohol abuse can lead to a form of alcoholism due to the changes the drug causes in the brain, but many - perhaps most - are already predisposed to become alcoholics before they ever touch a drop. And when they do take the first drink, their brain and body handle it differently than a "normal" person's do.

then how is it that many alcoholics come off of this drug? If one can do it then why not he others if it's biological as you suggest. Quite simply it's a psychological crutch that some weak people use. They need to fix the problems within their lives and then they could come off of it. They use it as an excuse for their problems, because humans don't want to blaim themselves. They call it a disease because they don't want to face the fact that it's themselves that have messed up their lives.

Originally posted by Heike
I'll try one more analogy for you. Suppose a person is allergic to penicillin. If they are given penicillin, do they CHOOSE to have the negative reaction?

A bad analolgy because this is a genetic quirk which often results in death and after they recieve this news they avoid penicillin. See how that works? they realise it's bad for them and they avoid it from then on.

Originally posted by Heike
Of course not. And alcholism is in some respect like an allergy, because the alcoholic's body does not process alcohol correctly.

The body processes it in the exact same way, converting it through the liver and eventually excreting it.

Originally posted by Heike
Unfortunately, this allergy actually causes the person to become addicted to and crave the substance they are allergic to. A "normal" person can drink a LOT and never become an alcoholic; some alcoholics (like me for example) exhibit an alcoholic pattern of drinking within a few months of taking their first drink.

Then you will forgive me if i stand by my point and say you have a need for a crutch. You could say this is the same crutch as religion because lots of alcoholics go from alcohol to religion. That is a very interesting change because you are substituting one thing for another. Note i'm not saying you as a person just generally to alcoholics.

I hope you get off of it, but i stand by my point that it's the people who need a crutch that choose a crutch. Whit you may see that you suddenly got addicted, i see it as something was missing in your life and alcohol filled it.

Originally posted by Heike
And I'll say one more time .. you are not a doctor or a psychiatrist. You are entitled to your opinion, but you don't have the knowledge or experience to JUDGE if alcoholism is a disease. Not too many years ago most people thought schizophrenics were possessed by demons, and those folks were just as sure they were right as you are today.

You are right i am not a doctor or psychologist. You however have quoted studies, so i must ask if you are either of these thigns before we continue because if you are not then your criticism of me is mute. I go by the current studies and no doctor, peer reviewed doctor says it's a disease. To do so would degrade cancer, HIV, even herpes as something that could be fixed by changing a habbit.

If you put something into your body that causes illness then it is YOUR fault, no one elses. You make a choice to do that each and every time to do it. If that "disease" can be taken away by stop putting that item into your body then it isn't a disease. I'm sorry if that offends you, but it's the truth. It sounds like you're placing your blaim elsewhere instead of on yourself, and that's a very human reaction.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Quite simply it's a psychological crutch that some weak people use. They need to fix the problems within their lives and then they could come off of it. They use it as an excuse for their problems, because humans don't want to blaim themselves. They call it a disease because they don't want to face the fact that it's themselves that have messed up their lives.

Well speaking from experience, not from books, that doesn't hold any water. My life is FAR from "messed up". Oh, it was at one time, TERRIBLE for both myself and others around me. I dealt with my issues though. I've got a great job, house, wife and 3 kids, who I hope don't get caught in this cycle and it IS a cycle. Read that book I referenced. Children of alcoholics have a 60% chance of either becoming an alcoholic or marrying one. But saying my life is messed up, or that I am, is ludicrous.

reply to post by intrepid


It might be their lives are messed up or they have a mental need for a cruch. some of the most successful have needed this crutch, maybe it's the way their brain needs to relax as it were. Some people do yoga, some people do tai-chi, some people drink to excess.

My point is that it's not a disease because people have cured themselves by coming off of it. If they can cure themselves by stopping taking in the substance that is harming them, then it's not a disease. Cancer is a disease, you can't cure yourself of it. Aids and HIV are diseases because you can't cure yoursslef and don't choose to get it (unless you're suicidal or insane).

Point being is that alsocholism is a disease which can be avoided, as for children of alcoholics getting it more, that could be attributed to enviromental rather that genetic causes. Association is a big cause factor, however it still isn't a disease.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
then how is it that many alcoholics come off of this drug?

Some people can quit smoking cold turkey. Some can't. Some people can run a mile in less than 4 minutes. I can't. And even if I'd been training since I was two, I still wouldn't be able to run a mile in less than 4 minutes.

Our brains differ in ability just as our physical bodies do. Just because one person can compose a great symphony or make a scientific discovery does not mean anyone could do it.

They need to fix the problems within their lives and then they could come off of it.

Hey let's incorporate just a little logic, okay? People can't even DRIVE when they're drunk, how do you expect them to be able to solve their problems while they're drunk? No, they have to stop drinking FIRST (usually with the help of some intervention, an NDE, an incarceration or commitment to rehab, etc.) and then they can regain some ability to think and try to solve their other problems.

A bad analolgy because this is a genetic quirk which often results in death and after they recieve this news they avoid penicillin. See how that works? they realise it's bad for them and they avoid it from then on.

All right, let's use poison ivy instead. The first time a person is exposed to poison ivy, they may have little or no reaction. If they are allergic, however, every successive exposure will cause an increasingly severe reaction. The alcoholic can not realize there is a problem the day he takes his first drink, and by the time it is bad enough that he does realize there is a problem, it's too late to just not drink.

(PS FYI - Poison Ivy IS an allergy, about 80% of the population are allergic, the other 20% have no reaction to it at all.)

The body processes it in the exact same way, converting it through the liver and eventually excreting it.

Do a little more research and you will find plenty of research and articles which show that the alcoholic's brain handles alcohol quite differently than the non-alcoholic's.

I hope you get off of it,

Get off what? As I stated in my first post, I rarely drink. I was able to quit some 32 years ago. However, I have learned from experiments that I am still an alcoholic. If I drink more than one or two drinks at a time, I will get drunk, and once I have gotten drunk all of the cravings to continue to drink will return, just as strong as they were 32 years ago.

You are right i am not a doctor or psychologist. You however have quoted studies, so i must ask if you are either of these thigns before we continue because if you are not then your criticism of me is mute. I go by the current studies and no doctor, peer reviewed doctor says it's a disease.

I am accepting the current medical stand which says that it IS a disease. I do not need to be a doctor or psychiatrist to accept what the majority of doctors and psychiatrists say. You, however, are claiming to know more than they do, thus I question your credentials and knowledge. Check with the AMA .. current medical and psychiatric opinion is that it is a disease.

From wikipedia (bolding mine):

The Disease theory of alcoholism is a theory based on the concept that alcoholism is a disease process. The disease theory is generally accepted by the medical community, which argues that genetic, neurological and behavioral studies distinguish those with alcohol dependence from problem drinkers.[1]

I think that the basic fallacy in your thinking is that you are not properly distinguishing between problem drinkers and alcoholics. Problem drinkers and drunks can quit any time they really want to; alcoholics can't. And without bran scans and medical testing, it's sometimes rather difficult to tell which is which.
(edit to fix quotes)

[edit on 19-8-2008 by Heike]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
My point is that it's not a disease because people have cured themselves by coming off of it. If they can cure themselves by stopping taking in the substance that is harming them, then it's not a disease. Cancer is a disease, you can't cure yourself of it. Aids and HIV are diseases because you can't cure yoursslef and don't choose to get it (unless you're suicidal or insane).

No, they cure themselves by dealing with the issues that keep them drinking, usually family issues. For me it was animosity towards an unloving alcoholic father. He learned that from his unloving alcoholic father.

Point being is that alsocholism is a disease which can be avoided, as for children of alcoholics getting it more, that could be attributed to enviromental rather that genetic causes. Association is a big cause factor, however it still isn't a disease.

I'd say it's both genetic AND learned behavior. Behind the 8 ball there. Fortunately I have more info than was available to past generations. My kids have a chance.

Originally posted by intrepid
No, they cure themselves by dealing with the issues that keep them drinking, usually family issues. For me it was animosity towards an unloving alcoholic father. He learned that from his unloving alcoholic father.

I know it's personal, and maybe a bit off-topic, but how do you get over that sort of thing?

Imaginaryreality1984 wrote:


"If you put something into your body that causes illness then it is YOUR fault, no one elses. You make a choice to do that each and every time to do it. If that "disease" can be taken away by stop putting that item into your body then it isn't a disease. I'm sorry if that offends you, but it's the truth. It sounds like you're placing your blaim elsewhere instead of on yourself, and that's a very human reaction."

You have an interesting criteria as to what it is that constitutes a "disease".


So people who suffer from heart disease due to bad diet and lack of exercise don't actually have a disease?


Does the person who gets genital herpes due to engaging in unprotected sex not have a legitimate disease due to their apparent weakness and poor judgment?

Where exactly are you getting this "if it's self inflicted, it's not a disease" bs?

All the person who has heart disease had to do is stop eating crap, all the person with herpes have to do is not have sex.

And I might also be led to think that you are of the school of thought that all women who are raped must have asked for it, or they shouldn't have been wearing those clothes, or they shouldn't have been in that neighborhood. I could be wrong, but that's what I have extrapolated from reading your post.

I also must suppose you lead the most upstanding and moral life, and never, ever have exercised poor judgement, done anything wrong, taken something harmful into your body.

Tell me, what's it like to be perfect?

Originally posted by Heike
Some people can quit smoking cold turkey. Some can't. Some people can run a mile in less than 4 minutes. I can't. And even if I'd been training since I was two, I still wouldn't be able to run a mile in less than 4 minutes.

Our brains differ in ability just as our physical bodies do. Just because one person can compose a great symphony or make a scientific discovery does not mean anyone could do it.

Bad analogies and as you talk about logic in the next parapraph then shoudlnt' we use good analogies?

Originally posted by Heike

Hey let's incorporate just a little logic, okay? People can't even DRIVE when they're drunk, how do you expect them to be able to solve their problems while they're drunk? No, they have to stop drinking FIRST (usually with the help of some intervention, an NDE, an incarceration or commitment to rehab, etc.) and then they can regain some ability to think and try to solve their other problems.

Yes lets stick to logic so if someone can give up with help via rehab and counciling, doesn't that show it's a problem which isn't a disease? It's a crutch.

Originally posted by Heike
All right, let's use poison ivy instead. The first time a person is exposed to poison ivy, they may have little or no reaction. If they are allergic, however, every successive exposure will cause an increasingly severe reaction. The alcoholic can not realize there is a problem the day he takes his first drink, and by the time it is bad enough that he does realize there is a problem, it's too late to just not drink.

Ok now we can agree to a point here, the alcoholic might not recognise he/she has a problem after the first drink. I will never debate that, however once they realise it's damaging their life they should give up, and i know people who have so don't give me the idea it's not controllable. the fact that people give up proves it's nothing more than a crutch, they give up that crutch for something else usually. It might be religion, hard drugs, charity work or even extreme exercise. all are subsititues for something missing within themselves.

Originally posted by Heike
(PS FYI - Poison Ivy IS an allergy, about 80% of the population are allergic, the other 20% have no reaction to it at all.)

An allergy is not the same as an addiction. An allergy is an involentary immune response to a foreign substance. People who are allergic avoid the allergenic from then on. You have puntured your own arguement here because by your logic alcoholics would just avoid alcohol, and some do which proves it's possible and therefore a crutch used for emotional help.

Originally posted by Heike

Do a little more research and you will find plenty of research and articles which show that the alcoholic's brain handles alcohol quite differently than the non-alcoholic's.

Sorry i meant the liver, the brain might get more high off of it in an alcoholic, but that's where self control comes into it, being unable to control yourself is again, weakness of character.

Originally posted by Heike
Get off what? As I stated in my first post, I rarely drink. I was able to quit some 32 years ago. However, I have learned from experiments that I am still an alcoholic. If I drink more than one or two drinks at a time, I will get drunk, and once I have gotten drunk all of the cravings to continue to drink will return, just as strong as they were 32 years ago.

My apologies for wishing you good health i thought you were still drinking or recently quiting. I apologise for wishing you good health and the best of luck

Originally posted by Heike
I am accepting the current medical stand which says that it IS a disease. I do not need to be a doctor or psychiatrist to accept what the majority of doctors and psychiatrists say. You, however, are claiming to know more than they do, thus I question your credentials and knowledge. Check with the AMA .. current medical and psychiatric opinion is that it is a disease.

Err as i mentioned in my U2U's i knew someone who went through it. His doctor made it very clear it was his fault, his problem and needed to overcome it. Maybe i should disregard the expertise of a specialst doctor. YHeah you're right.

Originally posted by Heike

From wikipedia (bolding mine):

The Disease theory of alcoholism is a theory based on the concept that alcoholism is a disease process. The disease theory is generally accepted by the medical community, which argues that genetic, neurological and behavioral studies distinguish those with alcohol dependence from problem drinkers.[1]

I read that and i viewed it rather differntly than you. Especially the behavioral part. That to me sounds as if doctors are pandering to patients to make it easier on them, and yet UK doctors tend to say it's the patients fault. Logically take a look at the fact that someone has to lift a drink to their mouth and down it to continue this "disease". It makes a mockery of the idea of disease.

Originally posted by Heike
I think that the basic fallacy in your thinking is that you are not properly distinguishing between problem drinkers and alcoholics. Problem drinkers and drunks can quit any time they really want to; alcoholics can't. And without bran scans and medical testing, it's sometimes rather difficult to tell which is which.
(edit to fix quotes)

No i'm not failing to see the difference at all and in any way. I just disagree with you.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
My point is that it's not a disease because people have cured themselves by coming off of it. If they can cure themselves by stopping taking in the substance that is harming them, then it's not a disease.

Obviously you have decided that you don't like AA and similar 12-step programs without bothering to learn anything about them first, because recovering (note the use of the word recovering, not recovered) alcoholics will be the first ones to tell you that there is no cure.

The sober alcoholic working "the program" goes into a sort of remission, but just one "bender" will quickly reassure them that they still have the disease, and finding out that, after years of sobriety, it is as hard or harder to get sober again as it was the first time, can be a very humbling - or humiliating - experience.

An alcoholic can not cure himself by not drinking. Anyone who has ever had to deal with a "dry drunk" or someone who is physically prevented from drinking (i. e. in jail or hospital) but not in recovery will quickly vouch for this fact.

reply to post by IMAdamnALIEN

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you about alcoholism not being a disease. It is a psychological and a physical disease. The physical part comes from the fact that some populations have an increased incidence of alcoholism, as well as the fact that alcohol fits the description of an addictive drug. It takes higher and higher doses to achieve the desired effect, and there are definite withdrawal symptoms if one is deprived of the drug and there is no intervention. (The withdrawal, called delireum tremens or dt's can result in death if it is not appropriately treated.)
Having said that, I have to say that an alcoholic has to take the same responsibility for his illness as someone who has heart disease, cancer, or hypertension. He has to admit there is a problem, seek help, and follow the treatment program, just as I have to take care of my hypertension by taking my medication, exercising, watching my diet and meditating. If I don't do these things, I could end up with a stroke or a heart attack.
Alcoholism and drug addiction begin with a lack of responsibility. No one makes a person take the first drink, the first pill, or holds you down and puts a needle in the arm. No one makes a person smoke crack, meth or snort a line of coc aine.
My brother is an alcoholic, aged 54, looks 10 years older and hasn't held a steady job for any length of time in years. He currently lives with our 76 year old mother, continues to drink, and is driving her crazy. He lost his license about 3 years ago, so he can't drive. We have tried to talk him into going to rehab, but he refuses. He says he can stop on his on. Dr Phil moment. "How's that workin' for ya, bro?"
I don't dispise him, but due to his behavior, I have to set boundries and distance myself from him. All anyone can do is hope that their alcoholic family member will seek help before it is too late!
Sorry for rambling, but when I get started with this, I get on my soapbox.
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You can't make a slave of a free man. The most you can do is kill him.
Robert Anson Heinlein

Originally posted by Johnmike
I know it's personal, and maybe a bit off-topic, but how do you get over that sort of thing?

It's different for everyone. For some AA works just fine, didn't for me. I had my own problems, didn't need to hear about others. I DID stay sober for 11 month with AA though. Worst 11 months of my life. "The only drink you should fear it the next one." Well after 11 months fearing that drink I said screw that, too much to life than living in fear.

I finally found a good counselor that helped me deal with the emotional disconnection. Gord was his name. I owe him a LOT. I remember his first few questions.

"How do you feel?"

"Fine."

"What are you feeling?"

"I'm, er, um, WHAT?"

Basically, whatever you can find that works for you. Gord wasn't my first counselor, he was one I connected to and worked with.