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Is it wrong to despise alcoholics?

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posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by capgrup
chickenshoes;

That has to be the oddest name I have seen here. I am happy that you now have some relationship with your father. I just wish that you and your family did not have to go through all of that. Sometimes I think it would just be great to ban alcohol but that wouldnt solve the problem. Besides I cannot dictate my morality on others, but it would be nice.


Capgrup,

Even through it all, I don't think banning alcohol is the answer. People will still find a way to get it, or make it themselves.

My hubby was in prison many years ago, and he told me that some folks would make "jail hooch" out of bread from their baloney sandwiches and OJ from breakfast, all mixed together in a big black trash bag and fermented under the radiator.


To me, banning alcohol because alcoholics shouldn't have it would be like banning sugar because diabetics shouldn't have it


Much like a person with heart disease should avoid eating garbage, persons who have the disease of alcoholism should avoid drinking alcohol.



[edit on 19-8-2008 by chickenshoes]




posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 04:14 PM
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chickenshoes;

lord forbid they ban sugar! I had heard that there is some kind of patch like treatment for alcoholism. Does anyone know if this is true. I do know that nicotine patch does'nt work for me.

My father worked in corrections when he retired from the military. I would have thought that working in a prison is worse than the military stress wise, especially with his attitude but he quit drinking the day he retired from the military.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 04:41 PM
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How is the alcohol disease any different from hate disease?
You despise/hate alcoholics.
To allow despising/hate in your life kills you.
The same hate, kills others, if not outright, then over time, or neglect, in the so many ways hate manifests itself, none of it good.

Even if it’s only the alcoholism you hate, he’s your Brother.
No amount of justification you use can separate the man from the disease.

So, because of hate...


It has gotten to the point that I cannot stand to even look at him, much less speak to him.


That should make you more ashamed of yourself than of him.
He has in inherited disease.
What’s your excuse.

Hate is a disease that ruins lives in a way far to similar to alcohol for you to be able to justify inaction.
So, he chooses to wallow in drink - you choose to wallow in apathetic despising.

Being drunk on hate changes you outside, ruins your body on the inside. It makes no difference if you drink from a cup full a whiskey, or a cup full of *whine* (“I’ll will NEVER accept that behavior”!) the effects are the same. Both in the end will kill, and in the in-between time, perhaps kill others.

You can choose not to hate, not to stagger under the despair it brings, the sleepless nights, the paranoia and worry.
But do you?
Doesn't sound like it.

On top of it, here you are doing an *all about you*.
You’re posting out to the world questions about your brother, asking for a response from the collective *Us*, to make YOU feel better.
You want *Us* to take the time to help you out, lend a shoulder to cry on, an ear to listen, some insight to make your way easier to go.

Sorry man, go ask someone who cares.
I despise people who can’t stand by their loved ones.
Especially a brother who you’ve done so well to point out isn’t suffering under a disease of choice, but one he inherited.

Naw, not going to waste my time on you, I have no tolerance for your ilk. I hate people who propel themselves . first into despising others, judging others, negating others, having no patience for others, when that *Other* is a family member who‘s ill with a killing disease.

(I hope you can see some of my sarcasm mixed in those last parts)

Good Luck to you and your Brother.
I hope you two work it out.


Remember - no matter what you do - you’ll never be able to undo it - so make sure what you do, is right.
Stand by him.


****************
UGH! I still don't get the proper way to quote content from an original post - to then insert into mine. Someone want to U2U to me the correct way to do this I’d really appreciate it. I wont be able to U2U back - yet - so I'll thank you here in advance.
THANKS!



[edit on 19-8-2008 by silo13]



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 04:51 PM
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There have been some fantastic posts in this thread and while I don;t agree with all of them all of them are valid for those posting-other than the trolls


I live/lived on both sides of the track, as an alcoholic and as the partner of an alcoholic who is in total denial.

If only it were about will life would be a doddle.

There is no need to despise alcoholics most despise themselves enough already.



posted on Aug, 19 2008 @ 06:25 PM
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silo;

I really have no idea if you were sarcastic or not, but I did like your use of imagery.

If you had read all of my comments you would have learned that my inherited disease is a lack of empathy and anger issues. I am not blameless in this and never said I was. In fact I blame myself for alot of his problems.

The question was and still is, after 30 years is it acceptable for me to let go and live my life. I have not abandoned him at anytime regardless of what time of the night it is, but I do not have to accept his "suicide" because that is exactly what this is.

I did ask for opinions and advice, not to cry on anyones shoulders but to find an answer (if there is one). If you do not have an answer or advice then kindly move on, nothing to see here.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by capgrup
silo;

If you had read all of my comments you would have learned that my inherited disease is a lack of empathy and anger issues. I am not blameless in this and never said I was. In fact I blame myself for alot of his problems.



There is no need to go there. You are most definately not the cause of his problems. Perhaps you are not, as you say, blameless, but it's important that you know it's...not...your...fault. The damage has been caused by himself because he's suffering from a disease.

Heike drew a likeness to allergy and that is perhaps a good way to understand it. I used to work as a counselor in a treatment center for alcohol and drug abusers and while working there it seemed to me that the clients better understood their problem as an allergy. I know the AMA and medical organizations around the world classify it as a disease, and it is. But for a sufferer with a really foggy brain it perhaps hard to take in.

Think of it as being allergic to strawberries. If you eat a strawberry you will get itching rashes and other symptoms. So the solution is to avoid strawberries. The only problem is that strawberries make you feel great, and you forget about your problems(for the sake of the argument. I know strawberries don't have these effects.
) So you eat a strawberry, feel good for awhile then itch some. But no matter how much time passes you will always be allergic to strawberries.

It's kind of the same for an alcoholic. For an alcoholic you only choose one drink, the first, the rest of the drinks choose you. An alcoholic can be considered allergic to alcohol but instead of an itch they get a craving for more. Hence the destructive circle. The disease is un-curable, but if you deal with whatever in your life makes you take that first drink you wont get the allergic reaction. Regular drunks can become non-drunks, but an alcoholic is always an alcoholic. If it was a question of will there wouldn't be any alcoholics. Who would choose that life if they weren't forced?

The hate against alcoholics and addicts is probably based on fear.

We only truly resent that which we recognize in others and fear we might become ourselves.



The question was and still is, after 30 years is it acceptable for me to let go and live my life. I have not abandoned him at anytime regardless of what time of the night it is, but I do not have to accept his "suicide" because that is exactly what this is.


Of course it is ok. You deserve your own life. But as I mentioned earlier in the thread you might need help. Letting go is more difficult than you'd think and finding experts in that field is a good idea, don't you think?



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 07:46 AM
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Reminding myself that my ex was an alcaholic helped me to distance myself from feeling hurt by her infidelity by masking my pain in hatred.

If it's family, I would say it is another story. Your feelings will certainly be more potent and have more grave consequence and I would suggest attending some alanon meetings as that is where you are most likely to find the best and most experienced advice on this subject.

If not, you can always go to one and tell them that you have made some profound revelations in regard to your situation on ATS(if that happens to be what you find).

Best of luck and I am sorry you are having to deal with this kind of thing.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by americandingbat
Something that often gets overlooked in the argument over whether or not addiction is a disease is the implication of this concept.

It was revolutionary in 1936 to define alcoholism as a disease because that implied that it could be treated, not because it meant it wasn't the alcoholic's fault that he drank.

The squabbling over blame leaves out this: if you are an alcoholic, there is help available.


Evading blame.

Not having to take responsibility for their own actions ia a major part of beginning recovery for alcoholics.
But, IF
They actually work the steps of the 12 step program,
they have to take responsibility for their own actions during steps 8 and 9 and the 12&12 says they also have to take responsibility for the welfare of others.

We all have to take responsibility for the consequences of our own actions.

That "I'm sick, not my fault what I do" ends with recovery.


Taking that first drink is a choice.






[edit on 20-8-2008 by himself]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by capgrup
I am not sure if this topic should be here. If not feel free to move it.

I have been thinking about this lately and I still have not been able to come to a decision. The problem is because of a family member who is an alcoholic. I know that this disease runs in families and my family has had its share of this problem.

My older brother is killing himself slowly. He has been in detox once and rehab twice (he never finshed his last). He has been busted for D.U.I and lost his job of 18 years, but yet he still drinks. It has gotten to the point that I cannot stand to even look at him, much less speak to him.

I understand that this was "learned" from my father, just as he learned it from his. My grandfather died young and alone. My father gave it up cold turkey and was sober for 21 years before he died. He never went to meetings or church or anything like that.

At what point is it alright for me to remove myself from trying to help and attempting to be understanding. I know that I will never accept this behavior. I am at the end of my desire to help. Is this wrong?

Any advice or comments are welcome.

well i sopose it would be the right thing to do for some addicts and bad for others. My family turning their back on me it what it took for me to get over addiction, i had nothing to lose by still continuing the problem when they gave me "love" and "support", but after they cut me off i realized i best un-f$#% myself.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by Enigma Publius

Originally posted by capgrup
I am not sure if this topic should be here. If not feel free to move it.

I have been thinking about this lately and I still have not been able to come to a decision. The problem is because of a family member who is an alcoholic. I know that this disease runs in families and my family has had its share of this problem.

My older brother is killing himself slowly. He has been in detox once and rehab twice (he never finshed his last). He has been busted for D.U.I and lost his job of 18 years, but yet he still drinks. It has gotten to the point that I cannot stand to even look at him, much less speak to him.

I understand that this was "learned" from my father, just as he learned it from his. My grandfather died young and alone. My father gave it up cold turkey and was sober for 21 years before he died. He never went to meetings or church or anything like that.

At what point is it alright for me to remove myself from trying to help and attempting to be understanding. I know that I will never accept this behavior. I am at the end of my desire to help. Is this wrong?

Any advice or comments are welcome.

well i sopose it would be the right thing to do for some addicts and bad for others. My family turning their back on me it what it took for me to get over addiction, i had nothing to lose by still continuing the problem when they gave me "love" and "support", but after they cut me off i realized i best un-f$#% myself.

Like a ball cannot bounce up until it hits bottom,
a person cannot rise up from addiction until s/he hits bottom.

Those who enable the addict to remain addicted and survive as an addict, delay recovery.
Hard to do, but,''
Shove the little bird out of the nest and make him either 'fly or die' is the only way to help an addict recover.

Gotta hit bottom berfore you climb back up.

I have helped a few as someone helped me in 1991.




[edit on 20-8-2008 by himself]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by chickenshoes
You know, it's interesting to me that all these people in this thread who have little or no long term experience with alcoholics should harbor such apparent hatred (or at least disdain) of them.

If anyone would have a reason to hate an alcoholic, it would be someone like me, who grew up with a dad who was an alcoholic.

My dad had the works. Drunk every night, physically and mentally abusive, abused drugs (legal ones from the doctor, mind you), lost his job, hid vodka and whiskey bottles all over the house and outside, wrecked his car drunk, etc.. We made countless trips to the ER because of him. There were many, many hours, days and weeks of needless worry inflicted by him. He even blacked out and passed out one night and accidentally fell on the dog and killed her. Not to mention the terrible things he did to my mom before I was born. She lost an almost full term baby because of him.

For a long time, I did hate him. I refused to speak to him for years. The sight of him was disgusting to me.

Now that I'm older, I've come to realize that after a certain point in his disease, he probably didn't have a choice. He has been dry for about 4 years, and we have a relationship now, but it's still not that healthy. I wish it could be different, but I'll take what I can get.


I remember once,several years after I'd left home, my dad was so desperate for a drink that he actually downed a liter of Listerene. Now, to all you out there who don't think there's any kind of pathology involved with alcoholism, and think that the choice is entirely up to the alcoholic, well, does a person being so desperate for a drink that they'll drink mouthwash sound as if that person really had a choice in the matter?

By that time, he had the DTs if he quit drinking. He was physically and psychologically dependent on alcohol to function. It was pitiful. He wanted to die, he had wanted that for a long time. In fact, he tried to commit suicide with pills not all too long before the Listerene incident.


He had to be hospitalized to dry out, due to the risk of seizures . Those of you who think it's not a disease realize that for a true alcoholic, it's not as simple as "quitting", don't you?




[edit on 19-8-2008 by chickenshoes]


Capgrup,

I think I left out part of what I really meant to say in my first post.

What I started off with is that I don't understand all the hate. Your initial concern, I think, was whether it was wrong to despise an alcoholic.

I got side tracked with hearing myself talk


Whatever you may feel towards your brother is understandable, and it is personal to you.

No one here can tell you how to feel. Your world is yours, and no one can know how it feels to be you and watch your brother on a downward spiral. I can tell you this from personal experience, being filled with hatred and despising a person only harms yourself, not the person who's being despised.

I also understand how hard it is to love someone and be so angry at them at the same time. It messes with your ..

Being filled with so much anger and bad feelings is, at best, a waste of energy.

Like others have said, going to alanon or finding a good counselor you feel comfortable with may help you to deal with these feelings.

I'm working on seeing the good in my dad, and there is still some there, what little hasn't been destroyed. He was diagnosed with vascular dementia several months ago, and has been on a slow decline ever since. It's such a shame, he was an extremely smart man in his day, an electrician.

And, I don't despise him. As someone else said, he made the choice to take that first drink, but after that, it seems it wasn't entirely up to him. You've got to remember that. No one would choose to live their life that way.

[edit on 20-8-2008 by chickenshoes]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 12:24 PM
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Hi Capgrup,

I see I'm late to this thread but I'll throw in my two cents anyway.

It's obvious that you're a very caring and kind person otherwise you would have abandoned your brother at the first sign of trouble. But you stuck with him. The problem is he's most likely never going to change no matter what kind of help you offer him.

Alcoholics (and addicts of any kind) don't want help; they just want to drink or drug or gamble, etc. They don't want to stop, otherwise they would. It's like people in an abusive relationship - they weigh the options in their mind and decide that being abused is better than leaving. Your brother weighs the options and decides drinking is better than being sober. Maybe it's because he knows his family will keep standing by him no matter how he abuses them.

My advice to you is to sever that tie completely. You can never have the relationship you want and deserve with him as long as he's drinking. He will always be abusing himself and it's pointless for you to stand by and watch. And if you keep being a cruth for him emotionally or financially or any way at all, he won't even have a reason to change. You mentioned he lives with your mother. Why does she let him stay if he keeps destroying himself with drink? It's only enabling him.

I don't blame you for despising him because you're still hurt by his actions. Eventually you will heal and your anger will turn into apathy, which is the best you can hope for I think. You've done all you can and now it's time to let him take care of himself.

You will get through it. Good luck.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 01:23 PM
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reply to post by capgrup
 


Believe me, giving up alcohol when your addicted is nearly impossible! It takes a lot of effort and you need support from those who are closest to you, sometimes it will feel almost painful but you have to persevere.

Firstly you need to understand that your Brother is probably drinking for a reason, he may have "learned" this behaviour from his father but your not like that so why is he?

It might be that he has problems/issues and subconsciously he has said to himself "Well my Dad used to drink like a fish so, so can I!" and be using the drinking to mask the problems.

What ever the reason he is drinking for, you need him to want to stop. If he doesnt want to stop drinking then it won't happen. You need to assure him that he doesn't actually have to go cold turkey and stay sober for the remainder of his life. There's nothing wrong with alcohol in moderation.

It is possible to be an alcoholic but come through it and enjoy alcohol maybe once or twice a week as most normal people do.

Take him to the doctor, shock him, do anything and everything you can to help convince him he needs help.

The first step of solving any problem is admitting that there is one....

He is abusing himself for a reason! Don't you understand that, he isn't doing it because he enjoys it. There is something that is making him feel the way he feels, so he drinks to forget about it, I can't understand how you can be so harsh.

People deal with their problems in different ways, I'm not saying he is right, but I am saying he needs help, not complete disbandonment.

OP: please listen to me, help your brother, do not give up on him, talk to him and support him, get to the bottom of the reason/s why he is drinking and sort it out, do NOT leave him on his own, it may be hard for you but he needs you.

[edit on 20/8/08 by Death_Kron]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by sc2099
 


Thats absolute bo**ocks, to say that people in a situation as described by the OP don't want help? Have you ever been in a situation like that yourself? Do you know what it feels like to be addicted to something and even though you know its wrong you can't break free?

Severe the ties to his brother? And what, let him kill himself with a long, slow, painful and lonely death while he drinks himself to death?

Thats an absolutely outrageous thing to say, and I can only hope that if you ever found yourself in a situation as such that the people around who would react in the total opposite manner you described, otherwise you'd be dead.

I'm not condoning alcoholics or drug users however you need to realise that some people are not total losers, their .s are screwed up and they need guidance and support, not riddicule and advoidance.

Everyone in this world does wrong, its human nature, but you can't commit someone to hell for making a mistake!

Believe me, I know what alcohol does to people, and I know how it can be used as an escape.

Sometimes people can't face the truth because it hurts so much, so they resort to something that helps block the truth out. That isn't nescessarily a bad thing.

If a close loved member of your family or friends died in horrific circumstances then I'm pretty sure you would either resort to alcohol, or maybe something else, but it wouldn't be healthy.

You would be using it as an outlet to vent and conquer your pain and aggression.

Yeah, there are down and outers in life, but believe me most people who get caught up in this mess don't want to be, but they can't see any other way out!

I'm sorry but iv got to edit this post, if they wanted to stop they could?!?

Obviously, from what your saying you have never been or never seen a desperate person at their wits end, who doesnt know what to do next and can't see a viable option.

Your basically telling the OP to let his brother commit suicide! You really haven't got a clue. I'm sure you would think a lot different if it was a family member of your own.


[edit on 20/8/08 by Death_Kron]



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


ok ill bite



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 07:07 PM
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Imagine that you and your brother are on a boat, and neither of you knows how to swim. Also neither of you is wearing a life vest, and there are no flotation devices available on the boat. (I know, poor planning and all but it's an analogy.)

Your brother falls overboard and looks to be drowning. You call to him to try to get closer to the boat so you can pull him in but he doesn't seem to hear you. You get an oar and hold it out to him, but he won't grab it.

You can't swim, either. If you get out of the boat to try to save your brother, you will both drown. You would have saved him, if he would have grabbed the oar, or gotten closer to the boat, but he didn't.

What do you do?

The choice you face is really almost that simple. You can not save your brother unless he decides to help save himself, and if you go too far trying to save him, he will drag you down with him. Be ready to hold out the oar again if he changes his mind, but don't jump in. You will only lose yourself and not save your brother.



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 07:30 PM
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www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Was a member, got left behind........



posted on Aug, 20 2008 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by Death_Kron
 


I am gonna go with Death Kron here. Do everything in your power to reach out.
If something happens, it is too late.

Only after you have done everything in your power, can you let him go to hit bottom.

There is no one size fits all method. Some poeple hitting bottom works. For some, finding support and reason works. But don't give up till you tried them all.

We didn't even have a chance to help my BIL. We didnt know he had a serious problem(sign of a true addict, they can really hide it.

But deep down inside we knew. And there isn't a moment I don't get angry at myself for not trying harder.


Something like this rips a family apart. !!!!!!!!!!! And destroys people forever. You never forget a sibling.

And addicts don't always know what is wrong with them.All they know is that it hurts, and alcohol and drugs make it feel better. It is a simple equation.

So you can help him figure it out.

Don't run, try. Without your brother, you will live like us, with a void at every holiday, birthday, family get together, of someone who should be there and is gone for a very stupid reason.



posted on Aug, 21 2008 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by sc2099


Alcoholics (and addicts of any kind) don't want help; they just want to drink or drug or gamble, etc. They don't want to stop, otherwise they would. It's like people in an abusive relationship - they weigh the options in their mind and decide that being abused is better than leaving. Your brother weighs the options and decides drinking is better than being sober. Maybe it's because he knows his family will keep standing by him no matter how he abuses them.


Do you actually know anyone who is a true alcoholic?

Here's a quote from one of my previous posts.

"I remember once,several years after I'd left home, my dad was so desperate for a drink that he actually downed a liter of Listerene. Now, to all you out there who don't think there's any kind of pathology involved with alcoholism, and think that the choice is entirely up to the alcoholic, well, does a person being so desperate for a drink that they'll drink mouthwash sound as if that person really had a choice in the matter?"

I'll ask again, do you really think a man who would drink MOUTHWASH out of desperation for a drink had much of a choice otherwise?????????

Have you ever seen a smoker so desperate for a cigarette that they go suck on the tail pipe of a car??????

It's more that just a question of weak will or making a choice here.

Have you ever had any sort of long term experience with an alcoholic? Such as a parent, sibling or spouse, yourself?

I'm inclined to say no, as I would to some of the other folks who have posted in this thread, ranting about weak wills and chanting cries of Cut him off, Cut him off!

You and a few others here seem to exhibit no understanding of what these people go through.

No one would choose to live like that.

To paraphrase what someone else here recently said, there's no need to despise an alcoholic, they already despise themselves enough.

And of course, I would never advise giving a person infinite leeway, but cutting him off completely may not be the answer either.

Each person is different. You can't fit all addicts under your blanket statement. Unless you've been there yourself, you can't know what the thought process is.




[edit on 21-8-2008 by chickenshoes]



posted on Aug, 21 2008 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by chickenshoes
 


Agree 110%, I'v been there myself and I know what its like, how people can say that alcoholics don't need help is beyond me! They need help and support, not avoidance and hate.



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