"It's Like Something Out Of The Third World"

quote]Originally posted by Heike
... sometimes less 'care' - and definitely fewer drugs - would actually be better for the patient.

Less is better.

Cut everyone off. The obese and the sickest will get well again on thier own, by exercising and eating right, or they will die off just as God intended when he created all things good and wonderful.

reply to post by whitewave


Apology accepted.

I dont know much about the American Nursing system, I agree, but I do know as a member of the Royal College of Nursing that there are many checks and balances in the UK system to make sure that there is no abuse of the system. We as Nurses CAN and DO speak out when we disagree about treatments and quite publicly too I might add.

We are taught to use 'best-evidence based practice' and to see the patient in a holistic manner, which means the whole thing, not just the illness. This is taught to us as Nursing Students and is upheld by the Royal College of Nursing (RCN) and the Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC), our governing body and the National Institution of Clinical Excellence (NICE).

The Liverpool End-of-life Pathway was brought about because each individual NHS Trust was 'doing their own thing' and there was no standardisation across the UK. This was done with full co-operation and guidance and input from specialised Palliative Care Nurses.

The NHS has been going now for some 60 years and is still going strong. Yes, we have some problems, but no system is perfect. I wouldnt work for any other organisation ..... There is no doubt in my mind that the NHS is the best. Long live the NHS!

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by Heike
... sometimes less 'care' - and definitely fewer drugs - would actually be better for the patient.

Less is better.

Cut everyone off. The obese and the sickest will get well again on thier own, by exercising and eating right, or they will die off just as God intended when he created all things good and wonderful.

I do not appreciate in the least what you just did.

My comment referred to the fact that I believe that some so-called treatments, and drugs, actually do more harm than good, and that the patient would be healthier if they were not administered.

You have no business trying to twist my words around to mean something else. You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to take my comment and falsely use it in such a way that I looks like I support your opinion. Which I don't.

Grow a pair and take responsibility for your own opinions instead of using other people.


[edit on 10-8-2008 by Heike]

Originally posted by Heike

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by Heike
... sometimes less 'care' - and definitely fewer drugs - would actually be better for the patient.

Less is better.

Cut everyone off. The obese and the sickest will get well again on thier own, by exercising and eating right, or they will die off just as God intended when he created all things good and wonderful.

I do not appreciate in the least what you just did.

My comment referred to the fact that I believe that some so-called treatments, and drugs, actually do more harm than good, and that the patient would be healthier if they were not administered.

I don't really see how you disagree with me.

You're pretty much saying the same thing as me. You've pretty much stated that people are being treated for profit instead of altruistruistic motives.

I'm just saying stop treating people using government money.

An altruistic healthcare system in a for profit society is an impossibility.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by In nothing we trust]

reply to post by In nothing we trust


I happen to believe that the current health care industry/system in the US is incredibly messed up.

I never suggested that anyone be denied health care. People who have acute illnesses such as appendicitis or are injured in accidents are taken care of fairly well in most cases, and I don't advocate letting someone die because they're poor.

That's a totally different - and separate - issue from concerns about the system being designed so that "routine" conventional US health care does more to keep you sick than get you healthy, and inappropriately treats minor illnesses and diseases that aren't even diseases, such as high cholesterol.

Originally posted by Heike
I don't advocate letting someone die because they're poor.

Poor people tend to be un-healthier and have more problems than rich people. They tend to be weaker and have less to contribute to society. Poverty is the real problem. No government aid for healthcare for the weakest members of society is the best way to eliminate poverty.

They also have a greater preponderance to drug addiction and tend to be more gullible which makes them more easily manipulated. Therefore the weak and the sick are a danger to our freedom.

I'm not saying that we should outright kill off poor people as is advocated by the rich. I'm just saying that we should stop treating them with government money. They are free to purchase thier own healthcare and shop around for the best emergency healthcare that they can afford.

If they can't pay turn them away.

Payment due at time of service.



In a free market society back alley clinics will fill the void. Those who are too weak or sick to find a back alley clinic will be selected out of the gene pool.

This is as the founding fathers would have wanted it. We're talking about monied people who kept slaves for god sakes. No government intrusion.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by In nothing we trust]

reply to post by In nothing we trust


Wow. Took me a while to calm down before I could respond appropriately.

I thought I was anti-social, but man, you take the trophy. I can't even come up with much to say, other than how wrong that is.

If my husband were not on my health insurance, you would have just sentenced him to death, as he had to have an emergency appendectomy two weeks ago.

Has anyone stopped to think what would happen if people ate good high quality food, organic vegetables and fruit instead of processed rubbish all day long? Did more exercise and didnt become overweight? If McDonalds was empty? Most food that people seem to eat nowadays has practically no nutritional value.

I think people need to take responsibilty - America and the UK etc are in the grip of a massive health crisis, and it's down to the individual to rectify that and make better choices about what they shove down their throats and spend their time doing. If we all did that, then a National Health service wouldn't cost much at all, as most diseases would be a thing of the past.

Originally posted by nabmth
Has anyone stopped to think what would happen if people ate good high quality food, organic vegetables and fruit instead of processed rubbish all day long?

Fresh vegetables and fruits are poisonous.

There is always some kind of a national recall going on for one or two vegitables or fruits at any one time. The national news is always saying stay away from certain fruits and vegetables due to some kind of a salmanella scare or some such.

i.e. lettuce, tomatos, jalopenos, etc

[edit on 10-8-2008 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by nabmth
Has anyone stopped to think what would happen if people ate good high quality food, organic vegetables and fruit instead of processed rubbish all day long?

Fresh vegetables and fruits are poisonous.

There is always some kind of a national recall going on for one or two vegitables or fruits at any one time. The national news is always saying stay away from certain fruits and vegetables due to some kind of a salmanella scare or some such.

i.e. lettuce, tomatos, jalopenos, etc

[edit on 10-8-2008 by In nothing we trust]

"Fresh vegetables and fruits are poisonous. "

You can't be serious?! Carrots, broccoli, goji berries etc?

Have a look at naturalnews.com, mercola.com - massive amounts of info on how to be healthy....

Originally posted by nabmth

"Fresh vegetables and fruits are poisonous. "

You can't be serious?! Carrots, broccoli, goji berries etc?

Have a look at naturalnews.com, mercola.com - massive amounts of info on how to be healthy....

NO you didn't read what I wrote. I said that's what the American public is being told.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by In nothing we trust]

reply to post by nabmth


Yup, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I grow my own vegetables, keep free-range chickens for the eggs, drink well water (no fluoride or chlorine, yay!), get raw milk & cheese when I can find it, and shop at Wild Oats when I can.

Natural, whole foods instead of chemical-laden overprocessed junk will go a long way towards helping your body restore itself to good health.

reply to post by asmeone2


I know this is an older thread but I thought it appropriate to respond to your post. I agree with you. But just look at how our government has made a massive free-market system out of security contracting. We can give supercontractors billions of tax dollars for war-profiteering, yet we can't form a system of free-market corporate healthcare that makes affordable healthcare a reality?

I honestly don't think we need one government-based form of socialized healthcare. That means even MORE government, MORE committes formed for oversight, etc..etc.. This just makes it more and more expensive for the government to the point that it might be cheaper to just do it the way it is right now.

The healthcare system needs to be reformed. The oversight committees and commissions in this country are ill-equipped to deal with modern economic and government concerns (for many reasons). And that is one big reason all the big healthcare companies have gotten away with killing people by refusing them treatment when they even HAD insurance to begin with. That isn't even including the millions of Americans who can't afford it.

We have a major crisis on our hands and nearly nothing is being done about it under the Bush Administation. It is going to be yet another boon of history under George Bush that he did nothing to change the system and make affordable healthcare a reality. And that is why the next president is going to be so critical when it comes to dealing with all of these pressing issues and crises' we are all faced with. The border situation, healthcare, energy, the economy, etc..

From what I can remember, these are all major reform issues that are more important to democrats than republicans (just historically speaking). And I think that is one major reason we see the Democratic party becoming so popular among Americans right now under a hypocritical Republican president who, for 8 years, has been completely unwilling to take the kind of strides that would make the U.S. a better place for our children.

The healthcare situation becomes more difficult due to the economic situation, and as long as the economy continues to go south we will have a worsening healthcare problem.

This thread got my attention becuase I heard recently on a local radio program here in Fairbanks, Alaska that there was going to be something similar here, only its going to be an obstetrics healthcare event for women who can't afford treatment otherwise. I tried to find some kind of new story on this on the internet but havent found anything yet.

-ChriS

[edit on 11-8-2008 by BlasteR]

As usual,I have never read such a load of ill-informed claptrap about the NHS apart from a few sensible points.All of the arguments Wotan put forward are right.Advice before believing some rightwing nut job propaganda about England why don't you ask us Brits what life is like here?I'm always happy to answer questions if it reduces these mad ideas espoused in places like this.Even the term'socialised medicine'makes me cringe.That would be a practice of medicine then that actually fulfills the Hippocratic Oath then ;to actually save lives instead of bean counting.

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

NO you didn't read what I wrote. I said that's what the American public is being told.

Ah sorry, gotcha!

It does seem to be a massive problem at the moment - hopefully one day it'll change, at the moment, western medicine needs total reform.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by nabmth]

Originally posted by candyfloss
As usual,I have never read such a load of ill-informed claptrap about the NHS apart from a few sensible points.All of the arguments Wotan put forward are right.Advice before believing some rightwing nut job propaganda about England why don't you ask us Brits what life is like here?I'm always happy to answer questions if it reduces these mad ideas espoused in places like this.Even the term'socialised medicine'makes me cringe.That would be a practice of medicine then that actually fulfills the Hippocratic Oath then ;to actually save lives instead of bean counting.

I think before people in England pass judgement on Americans who don't want government ownership of medicine in this country, need to come experience how our system works from the stand point of patients in this country. Americans when faced with bad medical care have only one option go to a different provider. The government is threatening to take this right away from Americans. Doctors in America no longer take the Hippocratic oath . Were you to study which group controls medicine in America you would understand why. Don't think for a second you are safe from the designs of our eugenicists .They have evil plans for the rest of the world also.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by eradown]

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Here are some stats to ponder

Just food for thought.

Leo Strauss put the 10 ten ton gorrilla on the table with this post. When rich American eugenicists are forced to pay in the form of a sliding pay scale where all people pay prorportionally based on their wealth for their health care, then and only then will American health and healthcare improve.

[edit on 11-8-2008 by eradown]

The problem is the very existence and requirement of money. While humanity remains duped into thinking that money is a sane and just way to manage civilization, then the dupes will remain enslaved to those who know the truth, and keep it hidden.

Most people have no idea that the common-denominator math of all the world's currencies forms an endless loop that generates debt faster than we can ever generate the value to pay for it. Those who scoff at this analysis have simply failed to do the math. Consequently, this civilization is verifiably based on purposeful and institutionalized deception, coercion, and exploitation. The time is long overdue to change the human equation and end the root causes of most injustice and suffering.

This civilization is rotten to the core

Here is Wisdom...

reply to post by Wotan

I'm sure im no the only european here whose jaw drops when they read stories about the state of the healthcare system in the US. Here in the UK, our worst enemy is MRSA, but that pales into insignificance when we read about your average Joe in the street not even having basic access to the system., It bagars belief.

It all stems, I'm afraid, to the tax-averse mindset prevalent in the US.

The irony of it is unbelievable, and im sure a economist would happily calculate that a state-run, free at point of service system is cheaper to be run than privately owned profit making healthcare organisations who have their pockets to line before caring for patients.

It may be a leap too far for any future US government, but someone soon will have to grab the bull by the horns and disband the private healthcare systems piece by piece.

Originally posted by MacSen191
I would kill to go see a dentist. I have coverage for medical, but no dental. Because my SO and I are not married I can't get insurance through his work place, but my son can. I already owe $700 dollars to a dentist and if I go in(which it is becoming a need to...) it will be a whole heck of a lot more $$$$ I can't afford. I take care of my teeth, but years of mountain dew kinda killed em...

So I should have to pay for your retarded decision to drink Mountain Dew for years? How is it that the "poor" seems to be synonomous with "stupid" when it comes to taking care of oneself? And don't give me the old crap line on how it's too expensive to buy the healthy stuff, last time I checked Mountain Dew was a wee bit more expensive than water.

How did "dental" even get into this discussion, I don't have "dental" and I sure as # wouldn't qualify for free dental if there was free dental in my state based on my income (and yet a dentist bill still hurts my family budget) Why should a guy like you who drinks liquid sugar and doesn't brush his teeth after each can (yes.. that would fix the problem) get FREE dental while I do not?

That is what Universal Health care is my friends.. FREE to some, subsidized by others. I was poor once.. I got an education, worked hard and now I am lower/middle class with all the trappings that come with it. Why, after all my years of hard work, should I pay for YOUR teeth and still have to pay for mine?

I'll gladly help pay for some kid with no parent, glady pay for a single mom who works two jobs, but you? Sorry, I draw the line at people who can actually provide for themselves. get off your ass, stop drinking MD, brush your teeth and get a second job (or a better first job)

As far as Universal Health Care goes...

Although I 100%, no better yet, 1000% agree that the absolute needy should be taken care of (and yes all of you lying jerkoffss.. America does that) I do NOT feel like your #ty lifestyle decisions should be a burden on my personal income and work ethic.

I am freaking tired of you boneheads overlooking the free healthcare in this country already. When I was poor a dozen years ago, I received FREE heath care. I broke my leg and had internal bleeding from an accident.

I did not pay a DIME, not one dime.

I was really really sick with the flu one year.. I did not pay anything.
It isn't the lack of free care thats the problem, its the hyperbaric and LYING voices from people like you guys who terrify the rest of the "poor" public who really need the care into believeing there is NO care.

YOU are the #ing problem (not you.. MacSen191, I am generalizing)

Granted.. the level of care needs to be substancially raised and the system needs overhauling no doubt but the constant drumbeat of BULL# needs to stop so we can actually move forward.

When are we going to have the post and link about how many babies are being tossed out in the trash because HMO's won't pay? Thats next right?The more sensationalistic you can get the better, regardless of truth?

To those who aren't from America.. SCREW YOU.

You have no idea what it is like over here, most of the responders to this thread are either ignorant parrots, outright lying or seriously exaggerating the situation.

There is plenty of FREE health care in America today. it is not perfect, it is not nationally organized, and it is not as specialized as pay care, but it is there. Every state, every city and almost every county in one form or another and better yet.. no insurance companies are involved.

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AMERICA HAS FREE HEALTH CARE

100% free for "poor" kids.. in my state it is called the "Husky" program Check your state for it's equivilent.
The rest of it (adults) is still "you pay" but the care is not based on your ability to pay.

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Note: America also has free basic dental in most states for children and in some states free basic for Adults

America does not have FREE health insurance. There is a difference.
Health insuracne gives you the freedom to pick and choose who you want to see, free care generally does not. Do you get worse care? That's certainly debateable but there IS CARE.

STOP LYING YOU ARE ONLY MAKING IT WORSE.
Tell the truth warts and all

Originally posted by Rook1545
This is what I am talking about. I don't get this line of thought. Like another poster said, you are simply switching insurance providers. Instead of your doctor billing you, he bills the government. There would be no restrictions on hospitals, doctors, any of that. No more needing to save up for the MRI or CAT scan if your provider didn't cover it. You would still pay your premiums, but they would be much lower and in the form of taxes. The upside is that you have no worries about the premiums going up. I really fail to see why this is such a bad thing.

This is a bogus analysis.. I am not sure if you just don't undersrtand it or are outright being dishonest here?

It would NOT be the same as just switching providers!

Do you honestly believe there would be no restrictions on who you could see, when, how you would "qualify" for what procedure? Do you honestly believe you'd just walk in, say something hurts and they'd whisk you away and run all the tests humanly possible at your say so?

This is why were have so many issues on so many levels,. the sheer amount of ignorance/trust in the government.. the same government I might add, that is CONSTANTLY being based on this very website and being blamed for killing innocents, drugging us, subverting us, following, recording and dicecting us.. this is the same government you all want running a universal health care program?

am I sill on ATS?


I apologize for generally calling everone names here but this issue pisses me off, no one ever fixes anything, all we ever do is bitch about the other side (myself included)
I swear if someone (politician) actually TOLD the TRUTH once in a while I would follow that person to the end of the earth.
If Obama would tell the truth about our health care system like he did about "black" responsibility I'd vote for him in a second.

The REAL truth good and bad