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Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
So for me it will be a 3rd party candidate at least that my I can say I tried to get a good man into the job and my conscience will at least be clear on that.

Very compelling post. Having a clear conscience is the best reason to vote 3rd party or even not vote, in my opinion. I don't understand the position of not voting, but I certainly understand voting for a clear conscience, even if you know it's not going to make an external difference.

Thanks for the intelligent contributions to this thread. I wasn't sure how it would be taken, but it's something I've been wanting to say for a while now. Thanks, ATS, for not letting me down.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I suggest you get off my ass and post to the topic of the thread, not some fantasy you have about an underlying message. You're trolling again. You're talking about the poster instead of the subject of the thread.

You're rather touchy today aren't you? Nobody is on your -ss, I was simply replying to your post, thank you very much.

BTW, A troll is someone who gets upset when the fallacies in their arguments are pointed out, and then results to vulgarity to make their point.

I explained that in my opening post. If you can't read, I can't help you understand.

I read quite well thank you, but maybe you need a refresher's course in writing..

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

JackatMtn if there were only a way to mobilize the apathetic non-voters.

I fear it's even too late for that.

It's never too late.

I won't say it will be easy, you're talking about reversing something that has been in motion for decades.

I do not buy the no vote protest, it doesn't work, it doesn't offer a solution, turning your back on a right that millions across the globe would love to have?

My political leanings are neither left nor right, I agree with a few issues that are left leaning, the same goes for other issues which are right leaning.

The way to start the movement is through word of mouth, posting here, etc. It isn't a hard thing to do, most people I know are angry with our elected, most feel left out or manipulated, all I try to do is let them know that staying home only prolongs the issues and gets our country nowhere.

If we can turn the apathy, to rage against the machine, who knows.

You tell two friends, they tell two friends etc.. etc..

It will take time, but I will keep trying, I hope others do as well.

Thanks for the thread, it gave me a chance to speak my mind.

Originally posted by TheRepublic
well im glad you realize it dosnt matter. im glad you seem more open minded then some on here.
voting for ron paul dosnt matter anymore either.

i for one refuse the choice of which of two turds on a plate i would like to have for supper.

how about neither?

everytime people vote between two crappy gloabalists they endorse the system. they say "i believe this system works and is fair even though i dont like my choice."

what is the alternative?
DONT VOTE!!!
dont vote, until the media and globalists hear our displeasure with their prepackaged toolbags. if the turnout on election day was 1 million people or something ridiculously low, it sends a message that will go straight to the top of the ladder.

we are saying "we know we dont have a choice and we are not living in your false system...F--- OFF!" Now thats a message I can get behind!

then maybe you will get that "Change" and "Hope" you are really looking for...



[edit on 28-7-2008 by TheRepublic]

So I'd have to disagree with you just a lil bit here. Yeah I think that the two party system is a bit mucked up if you ask me. I prefer a multi-party system, especially in as huge of a country that we have.


But voting still works. If everyone voted for Ron Paul or Bob Barr or Big Bird, we would have them for president.


When someone says "Don't vote" it means that they are not happy with the choices and they just don't have a plan. Which is fine. I didn't vote in 2004 for the same reason. I can't stand bush, and I wasn't going to vote for an anti-bush. (I just don't put energy behind things I hate, I only put energy behind things I love).

But to assume that not-voting somehow will bring the world back around to listening is just a false assumption. Not-voting will allow you to isolated from the rest of the voters, and have a "it doesn't have to do with me" attitude, but it will not change anything.

As a matter of fact, if only 1% of the US voted because of such displeasure with the candidates, someone we don't like would still win. And then it would probably escalate into social violence. Which might be what some people want, but is not something I would expect to be pretty at all. (Think Katrina).

Anyhow, in the end, I Agree whtat the two party system is bunk. In my opinion Obama represents a change to this. When he defeated hillary for the nomination I saw a quickly rising star who was already bucking the system within the democratic party.

I'd love to see him bring on Ron Paul and Bob Barr as advisors.

Originally posted by Quazga
But voting still works. If everyone voted for Ron Paul or Bob Barr or Big Bird, we would have them for president.

Do you think so? Because I don't. I wish that were the case and it SHOULD be true, but after what I've seen in the past few years, I have no hope whatsoever that the election system in this country even works at all.

But then again, there's that 5% chance.

In my opinion Obama represents a change to this. When he defeated hillary for the nomination I saw a quickly rising star who was already bucking the system within the democratic party.

You're like me. A hopeless romantic. I HAVE to (for now) hold onto this hope. It's almost like I love this country too much to give up. I know that's corny, and probably a dream, and probably not realistic, but I can't let it go quite yet... if ever.

I'd love to see him bring on Ron Paul and Bob Barr as advisors.

We can dream, can't we???

Voting is important whether we think so or not. It's a right of every American citizen paid for with the blood of thousands of American patriots. To not vote is to minimize their sacrifices.

Does vote tampering and election rigging occur, you bet! But that shouldn't discourage you from doing your duty as an American, and casting your ballot. Every vote counts, and if a Third Party candidate is your personal choice, then vote your mind. Don't be mislead by those who would have you believe that you're vote is wasted by doing so.

There are more than two choice available, but so many people seem to not be aware of the fact. If you choose not to vote, that's your right as well, but I'd ask that you think about what your vote really stands for.

It's your chance to speak your mind regarding the course you'd like for our country to take over the next four years.

Just for the sake of this argument, pretend for a minute that a large number did vote for a third party. Perhaps its all been set, though I really believe not as set as they imply, as their are groups fighting within this den of vipers, so not quite without hope. But there is a point, one that is very important. It would mean that the majority have clearly stated that they are AWAKE. That they don't buy into the conspiracy of lies anymore, and that they won't take anymore. This would be a real eye-opening shock, even if they do have plans for this as well in place. They would get it. Their handling of us, would have to change, because people would be alot more aggressive themselves in showing they want their democracy back.

I'm going to vote for Bob Barr because it's better than just sitting around complaining about everything. What are we all supposed to do? Just give up and die?

I've thought the same thing, mystiq. What if 60% of the people voted for Ron Paul (for example)? If they put up Obama or McCain as the "winner", there would be demands of recounts, exit poll data, demonstrations, articles, hanging chads... It would be 2004 all over again. Maybe worse.

And inevitably (I believe), Obama or McCain will take the office. And it will give "them" the information they need to make sure it doesn't happen again. It will help them course correct.

Originally posted by mystiq
Perhaps its all been set, though I really believe not as set as they imply, as their are groups fighting within this den of vipers, so not quite without hope.

I'm so glad to see this, because I firmly believe this! There are human beings in there somewhere. Not many and not strong enough to make any difference on their own but if only they would get together...

Their handling of us, would have to change, because people would be alot more aggressive themselves in showing they want their democracy back.

Another compelling thought. I just think their handling of us would change. They would become more outwardly aggressive to meet our aggression.

Eventually, I guess the numbers would rule. When I think of the small number of people who are in control compared to the vast numbers of people who simply want their country back, it's pretty overwhelming... That we let this continue, right?

The vote should not be a "either/or" scenario. you should vote your conscience. And with single digit approval ratings for both parties, in all three branches, it is not hard to understand where the average Americans conscience is.

So, we are left with only one logical option: elect someone who is NOT from the two parties, and see if the system really is a sham. It will happen very soon (within my lifetime) if something doesn't change drastically.

There is a thread here called "Everyone is tired and no one knows why". I think i know why....but it is a different kind of tired.

But the point isn't really how "their" handling would change. They would truly be shocked to find that many people awake. Germany extended itself too far in its takeover, and collapsed during WW2. This is a small elite group who have held power for too long. If their handling was pronounced, the revolution would be on, and it would spread throughout all free countries. Preferable to maintaining the semi-visible fourth reicht that underlies our surface democracy. I'd do it just to see the looks on their face!!!

Originally posted by LLoyd45
Voting is important whether we think so or not. It's a right of every American citizen paid for with the blood of thousands of American patriots. To not vote is to minimize their sacrifices.

Does vote tampering and election rigging occur, you bet! But that shouldn't discourage you from doing your duty as an American, and casting your ballot. Every vote counts, and if a Third Party candidate is your personal choice, then vote your mind. Don't be mislead by those who would have you believe that you're vote is wasted by doing so.

There are more than two choice available, but so many people seem to not be aware of the fact. If you choose not to vote, that's your right as well, but I'd ask that you think about what your vote really stands for.

It's your chance to speak your mind regarding the course you'd like for our country to take over the next four years.

Right on Lloyd

I agree whole heartedly with all of your points.

Well coming from someone in Ohio where the 2004 presidential election was stolen, I will say that I now have more confidence in our voting system than before. The reaction from the last presidential election was a higher price to pay than "they" imagined. Ohio has been traditionally a republican state for a long time, but in 2006 because of what happened, almost every local republican lost in the election, including republican Secretary of State, who was responsible for the distribution of the new voting machines. He ran for governor and only got 30% of the vote. This showed me that we still have a voice. This radical shift would not have happened if "they" controlled it all.

The new democratic Secretary of State, has recalled all the touchscreen voting machines and they were replaced by paper ballot readers across the state. We now have more oversight in voting than ever before, and no one is going to be able to get away with anything. Of course not every state has solved all the voting problems, but I'm sure changes have been made to improve things.

Even if you don't want to vote for one of the two major candidates for president, I would still say you should vote for all the other offices and issues, because they are also important. If you are like me and not happy with Congress, then vote out the incumbents.

I'm with BH on the thought that I don't want to accept that the country is so far gone that we don't count. If that were true, the politicians wouldn't be working so hard to get our vote and they would never screw up. It is somewhat of a circus, but it's not just a show, because if it were, then that means politicians are incapable of following a script.