"Jesus is a liar"

reply to post by OldThinker


First of all, it is an established fact that the gospels and other NT books were not written for decades after any event, especially the life of Jesus.

#2. Every word was transferred by mouth countless times over and would never stand a chance of being 100% accurate at any given time.

#3. Biblical scholars are just now in the last decade or so discovering and supporting their discoveries with the new knowledge that the gospels were not even written by said authors: Matt. Mark & Luke. They are known as the Synoptic Gospels.

#4. There is not one, hear me, not even one original text from the NT books! There are only copies of each book and each copy varies between each translation to varying a great deal between them!

#5. As Christianity developed through the centuries, religion adopted many theories based on what was happening politically at the time, and who was in control. Many theories came in with the Gnostic and the Hellenistic religions and did not originate with Jesus.

#6. And this is perhaps one of the most important points: how words were translated from one group to the other within that first - third centuries could vary astronomically! And it also depended on who had hold of texts and what they did with that information!

Before anyone assumes that what is being taught is correct, or that a theory is a fact (such as Jesus calling himself God, which is not supported by fact), it is wise to do research! There is a lot of new information coming out since the 80's that squashes many of these so called facts.

If anyone is interested in looking into what other Biblical scholars are finding out, here are some books worth reading:

"Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman
"The Lost Gospel - The Quest for the Gospel of Judas Iscariot" by Herbert Krosney with Bart D. Ehrman (Forward)
"The Jesus Papers" by Michael Baigent

I know that when I used to be religious we were told to stay away from books that could sway us. Well, there is reason why they told us that...a person may discover the truth!

[edit on 24-7-2008 by MatrixProphet]

12...12 followers...not huge.

CNN and the internet were not around then...

Many wrote of him...Matthew, Mark, Dr. Luke, John, etc...

Originally posted by For(Home)Country
And Jesus was not an apocalyptic preacher, he simply preached that we must be read for the end, weather it comes now, in a million years, or fifty years ago.

This has been one of my biggest 'issues' with many religions... this constant pushing of 'the end of times'

It seems every year some religion or other group is saying 'The End is Near' A while back it was 2000, now its 2012...

What is this fascination religion has with death? Should we not be celebrating life and living that to the fullest? It's short enough, why obsess over ending it?

A while back there was a religious group that canvased the streets in my area... Normal I just politely say "Thanks but I am not interested" but this time the message was 'The Lord is going to end it soon... you need to be saved..."

Okay long story short... I asked her why would I want to join a church that is telling me that their god is about to wipe out all life on Earth? It seems like its not a great selling point...

And what do I need to be saved from? Especially considering at that first moment she had no idea what my beliefs were?

Gloom and Doom preaching sounds to me like it should be the department of the 'other' guy... not the God of Light...

"The Lord is thy Shepard.. Thou shall not want..." The church like mindless sheep in their "Flock"

Seems the flood happened because the 'God of Light and Forgiveness' got miffed at His creations and wiped them all out save for a few 'criiters'

Obey me... Worship me... or I will wipe you off the face of Creation...

This is not the workings of a benevolent loving god...

Some thing is wrong here... and has been for 2000 years... and that is why there is so much confusion... people are starting to wake up and take notice...

This 'awakening' would be the death of organized religions... so they MUST tell us its the works of the 'other guy'

Then along comes Jesus... a poor carpenter with an 'interesting' birth record... and says no more eye for an eye... you must all love each other...

It is no wonder the world is confused...

MatrixProphet


Good response...please give me some time once I get back home to respond to your points....hopefully later tonight...

OT

PS: I'm not religious anymore either...just thrilled to know Him. Appreciate the debate my brother!

Originally posted by AgnosticX
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Number 7 on your list josephus, has known to be a forgery for hundreds of years. And all the others on the list refer to christus or chrestus which is a title it means the anointed. None of them refer to "jesus" christ. And there were historians that lived "during" the life of christ, around the same areas he was supposed to have been. Such as:

1.Philo Judaeus 20bc-50ad
2.Phaedrus 15bc-50ad
3.Livy 59bc-17ad
4.Seneca 4bc-65 ad

If someone had such a huge following and was performing miracles, don't you think someone would write about him during his "Life"? Someone that caused so much trouble during his time would have been written about during his life. And 14 years is a long time.

(The misspelling of Christ as “Christus” was a common error made by pagan writers). It is interesting that Pilate is not mentioned in any other pagan document which has survived. It is an irony of history that the only surviving reference to him in a pagan document mentions him because of the sentence of death he passed on Jesus the Messiah.

(First Paragraph)

You didn't even finish reading the first paragraph. What is the point of presenting evidence if you only look at the first 5% of it?

reply to post by zorgon

Adam and Eve had two sons... Cain killed Able... was banished and married a woman an became ruler of her people... where did this woman and her people come from?

Like you, I have been researching the Bible for over 40 years. And like you have extensively read many books including other holy writings, and also lost books or lost gospels of the Bible. Religion no matter how hard they try, can answer to satisfaction these questions. Questions I have always asked.
Generally speaking they won't even go there!

What about Lilith? What about another tribe or nation besides Adam and Eve? The Bible is not complete nor IMO was it meant to be. There are a lot of intentional loop holes inscribed in the Bible.

What is this fascination religion has with death? Should we not be celebrating life and living that to the fullest? It's short enough, why obsess over ending it?

Because to me, a Christian, life on Earth is as close to hell as I'll experience. Those destined to hell value life so much because it is as near to heaven as they'll ever experience.

My .02

Adam and Eve had two sons... Cain killed Able... was banished and married a woman an became ruler of her people... where did this woman and her people come from?

Doctors say with the original DNA strands that incest would have produced no deformities. The "purity" of the strand.

God forbade man to sleep with his relatives in Exodus, after Moses delivered the Jews from slavery in Egypt. Before then it must have been common practice amongst God's people. But also, not against the Law of God for it had yet to be given to Moses. Therefore, when one considers that Adam lived for HUNDREDS of years we can easily see where these "people" came from. Hundreds of years of human reproduction.

Just because we are in our 20's when we first marry doesn't mean Cain was himself. He might have been 300 years old at that time.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


No, i read it, but as i said, christus or chrestus is a title "The anointed". I don't find it to be a "pagan misspelling". And once again all this was after his life, once the religion had been started. But we don't see eye to eye and I don't think we can change each others mind. I already knew about some of the people that were on the list-josephus, tacitus, pliny the younger. Yes they do mention "christus or chrestus", but no more than a few sentences and not enough for me to believe he existed. Even if you look at they way they refer to him they refer to him based on the the religion not based on any type of actual life this man may have lived. But if you can find some other "non-biblical" reference I'll keep an open mind.

reply to post by zorgon



No, Jesus DID say He was God.

Study John 8 (ALL of it) where Jesus expounds some rather amazing things.

In particular:

John 8:58

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

**--I AM-**

There is NO getting around this.

Don't be confused by what Son of Man and Son of God means. Our minds are not capable of getting around the God Head so He came in a form that we could get our Minds around. He shed His infinite Self and came in a way taht we could understand. This does not make Him ANY less God.


Hope you get this.

Whether or not the man knew he was lying outright, or perhaps just mistaken, either way we have some glaring 'false prophecies' attributed to R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (BC 12 to AD 36) aka 'Jesus' via some very ungrammatical Greek words which were placed into his (originally Galilean Aramic) mouth in the 4 canonical ('Nicene Council approved') gospels e.g.

"Amen, Amen I say unto you that there are some standing here who will not taste of Death until they see the Son of Man (Aram. Bar-Enasha) entering into his Kingdom of his Fa[ther Dav]id sitting at the right hand of the Mighty On[e of Israe]l, even upon clouds of glory, with his holy ones with him in order to judge the sons of men each according to his deeds..."

See the socalled Gospel of 'Matthew' (whoever he was, his 'gospel' circulated for at least 250 years without a title) chapter 16:27-28 & 'Matthew' 26:64 and the synoptic parallels ('Luke' 9:27, 'Mark' 9:1, whoever these persons were).

As others have rightly pointed out on this thread the canoncially approved gospels (copies made post Nicene Council of 325) were written in Koine (common) Greek, and not Galilean Aramaic, and not by 'eye-witnesses'. If Mathathias bar-Halfa was the '13th' disciple chosen by lots to replace 'Yehudah bar Shimeon, ish-Keriotha' ('Judas son of Simon the man who handed-over') who apparently left the earliest Christian Community after the arrest of the Teacher on the hill for armed sedition in Passover of c. AD 36--this Matathiah ("Matthew") may have collected as Papias believed the 'logia of the Lord' (whatever they were) after the crucifixion in order to study the 'words he was not able to hear live' while the teacher was still alive, as the other disciples were able to do

The LOGIA ('oracles') of 'the Lord' (i.e. Iesous, i.e. Rabbi Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean)may have formed the basis for some of the sayings in the canonical Gospel of 'Matthew' especially as so many of the Greek Words placed in to the mouth of "Jesus' quote the Hebrew Old Testament in very loose Aramaic Targum fashion (and often do not follow the Greek Old Testament, aka the LXX, compiled around 250BC and well known to the early Greek Christians who could not speak Hebrew out in the Diaspora cities of Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, Tarsus etc.)

I would probably lean towards thinking that the man was deranged in his own religious-zealousness enough to actually believe in his own mind (in the end quite wrongly) that he was literally going to 'come in glory upon clouds into his kingdom' while his followers still lived, just as he apparently believed that 12 legions of angels were going to save him from execution on Ha-GolGol-tha (lit. 'place of the Golgol' or 'skull')--but alas, none of this ever took place 'as advertized'.

One imagines the socalled 'Transfiguration pericopes' on the hill were a lame attempt by early Christians to make the prophecy of his glory and clouds to in some way come true--other wise he would be just another 'false prophet who got what he deserved for leading Israel astray...' as outlined in the 'Torah of Moses' in Deut. 18:17-20

Thus sayeth YHWH: I will raise up for them a prophet like [Moses] from among their brothers;

I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.' "

also: see Deuteronomy 13:1-5 "If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, shall appear before your faces and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken does not take place or he tells you to stray after other clan gods, you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer.' etc.

So Liar or False prophet....kind of a hard choice !

Great thread, lots to digest.

One thing I want to clear up though, anyone here who thinks Jesus didn't claim to be God based on Scripture is light years off.

Read ALL of John 8.

In particular, John 8:58 Jesus answer the Jews when they question how He -knew- Abraham when He was not even 50 years old:

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

BEFORE ABRAHAM... **I AM**.. Get it? There is NO way out of this. Based on scripture that is NOT debatable.


I think many people are confused about what "Son of Man" really means.



[edit on 24-7-2008 by ViewFromTheStars]

reply to post by AgnosticX

In addition, there is not a single contemporary (ie secular) piece of documentation that mentions Jesus. All documents regarding Jesus were written well after (AFTER) the alleged life of Jesus by either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.

All reliable evidence for the historical actuality of Jesus Christ are purely hearsay.

I take it you have not read any of the books I mentioned above? I also take it that you have not read the "alleged" letters of Pontius Pilate?

!. "The Epistle of Pontius Pilate" Which he wrote to the Roman Emperor concerning "Jesus."

2. Or the letter he wrote to Tiberius Caesar the Emperor.

It is not a fact that everyone had heard of this miracle man. Many had never known him or had even heard of Jesus. Some had only heard of him later (as you said). There were not any known historians or "reporter's" at Christ's death.

It does not preclude the existence of Jesus, but that not everyone was privy to his friendship or acquaintance. The same can be said of many other holy men, or even other historical characters. Often what happens is that archaeology will discover facts pertaining to an individual or circumstance and at some point it gets revealed...later.

Some of the historians that lived during that day were not in Jerusalem but were in Greece, Rome or elsewhere. Remember, they did not have satellite communication, TV's or radio or telegraph. Everything was virtually reported or exchanged verbally, as most could not read or write, nor could they afford the precious writing materials.

I personally think that you give man too much credit. I think most of mankind can barely tie their shoe laces; eat, sleep and defecate, and so cannot maintain a fairy dust story for too long without it turning into just another legend or folklore. The existence of Jesus is too hard to repudiate!

I recommend the books I stated earlier as good educational books and to broaden ones perspective. Take what you want and leave the rest, but we cannot do that if we don't read or do research!



[edit on 24-7-2008 by MatrixProphet]

reply to post by ViewFromTheStars


Again, where you are off: there is no proof that these are the actual words as originally recorded or said.

This is a fact: There are no original texts of any NT books! Everything is a copy translated 100's if not thousands of times . Tremendous room for error.

And...I might add; it was God's will for it to be so!

Matrix, unfortunately I don't have time to debate this with you. If you re read my last post I was stating quite clearly 'based on Scripture'. The validity of Scripture is another debate all together.

But I will say as much:

How do YOU know what God's will is?

Furthermore, when you say

"This is a fact: There are no original texts of any NT books! Everything is a copy translated 100's if not thousands of times . Tremendous room for error."

Not when God (The REAL One) is involved.



[edit on 24-7-2008 by ViewFromTheStars]

Originally posted by OldThinker
It's not very probable they would allow this for a mere man, but quite logical if he were God, and they knew it, fair?

At those times it was not uncommon for men to be worshiped as gods even in their lifetime. Alexander the Great was worshiped as a god, Apollonius of Tyana was worshiped like a god even though he always told people he was a mere mortal. There are a lot of examples if you look into it.

-Know Thyself

From what I can tell Jesus was a Buddha like figure, someone who preached something he believed in and it got edited into a religion, and he became edited as the son of God. He may not have been a liar; it is the ways others have portrayed him that make him appear to be one. Far as I’ve gathered, you may disagree but I think your three separate ideas of how people can interpret the man and the religion are wrong.

this is not a new notion here, it has been plagiarised from lewis' trilemma where he contemplates liar lunatic or lord. Google it. I am assuming the poster is having faith issues and wants some reaffirmation on ats!

this is not a new notion here, it has been plagiarised from lewis' trilemma where he contemplates liar lunatic or lord. Google it. I am assuming the poster is having faith issues and wants some reaffirmation on ats!