“Jesus was a liar!!!!!”

That really is a logical option…please read on…

First of all, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know. Life is a bit more complicated than I thought it would be when I was in my 20/30's. I am a Christian, by that I mean I have chosen to believe that I am imperfect and needed His intervention.

I have come to this conclusion primarily upon LOGIC, not faith. Faith is one of those enigma's in today's vocabulary that has lost its meaning or has been interpreted differently by so many. My journey to this conclusion has a few factors that I will share with the forum/thread.



Point 1 ---- Again before I go on I will try and be LOGIC-based and not bring in a bunch of Christian-eze mumbo jumbo.

Remember Back to the Future and the Delorian (sp?) Imagine if you were Micheal J Fox and someone asked you to go to five (only 5) different time zones/geographical areas and meet one person in each time zone/area and ask them, "please write a book about God, I'll be back in 5 years to collect it."

Five years later you went and picked up the five books. Logically speaking what are the chances those five books would agree? What are the chances those five books would build upon one another? What are the chances you could make any semblance out of them...to live by or the like? Snowballs in your know where, right?

Different people! Different cultures! Difference Time frames! Different Premises! Different World view! etc...

Logically speaking you would have five unconnected books with five different perspectives, right?

Well, the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but 66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line...authors were of every occupation and financial status........yet......the Bible is a one-themed, continuing story.

Doesn't prove it God's Word yet though...just something that might warrant another look.

Point 2 ---- Here's an undisputable fact (I believe at least after examining) Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God. Doesn't appear here to be different agendas going on. He said it, His followers said He said it, third parties said He said it and even his enemies said He said it (Sanhedrin, Pharisees, etc)

SO...with all that said...we have only two LOGICAL outcomes. No religious double-talk here) Either you BELIEVE or you REJECT. Really no other options right? If you believe, then to you HE IS LORD. If you REJECT there are really only two options for you.

1) JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR

2) JC didn't know he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LUNATIC.

That's the only three logical outcomes...LIAR, LUNATIC of LORD. There is no room for him being a good guy and all, no room for him being a prophet as every other religion on the face of the earth calls him.

Because prophets don't lie and they are not usually in psych wards.

Point 3 ---- Most direct followers were killed for believing in JC. If they had stole his body and the Romans excused, at least one of them would have squilled just before their execution right? I would have...

but NO-All these ordinary folks were willing to die for what they saw…

You thoughts ATS-ers?

Originally posted by OldThinker
“Jesus was a liar!!!!!”

1) JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR

2) JC didn't know he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LUNATIC.

OR

3) He was telling the truth.

Liar, lunatic, or truth. The choice is yours.

Originally posted by OldThinker
Well, the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but 66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line...authors were of every occupation and financial status........yet......the Bible is a one-themed, continuing story.

One flaw I see in the logic... The bible is a collected works..

I could go all around the world to day and find a hundred books on Alien visitations from many lands, many cultures and many languages and assemble a great work based on the "Gospel of Alien Visits"

Even into the 1400's there was still editing going on as church elders decided which books should be excluded because they didn't quite have the story right.

It wasn't a problem before because people couldn't read so story tellers spread the story far and wide and most of the books were not even written down for a long time after the events occurred

Also at the time peoples thoughts were more focused especially on religion so it is logical that any writer would reflect this...

There was also a select group of people who had a purpose to hang onto these books while many other writings suffered fates like the Library of Alexandria. The library at Alexandria actually competed with that at Pergamum in amassing the most complete collection of books in the world. This went on in the 200's B. C., and it is interesting to note that there were already so many works in existence that obtaining a copy of each would have been an impossible undertaking even then. The destruction of this priceless treasure was a stroke of the most unimaginable bad luck.

Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God,

No he claimed to be the SON of God... as you and I are the sons of God...

I don't think Jesus is a liar... just misinterpreted...

I think Religion is the liar... and have kept mankind on the bring of war for over 2000 years based on which 'interpretation' of God is the correct one...

The God of the Christians, Jews and the Muslim is the same God... the only difference is in the interpretation... yet look through history and the daily news and see how much hatred and death there is because of this

Maybe we are cheering for the wrong side...

Maybe Lucifer the "Light-Bringer" is a name for the "Morning Star" and the "Fallen Angels" have been getting a bad rap...

And I don't mean the view of Satan and Hell that Dante created under paid contract for the church to scare people into believing...

I think there was a battle between two forces... and the 'good guys' lost and we are paying the price

I think the battle is still going on... 'out there' and it just may come close to home real soon...

THAT is what I think is the LIE

[edit on 24-7-2008 by zorgon]

If those hypothetical books about the alien visits had ongoing prophesies being fulfilled over and over and there was a connection over centruies, I would read it because it warrants a second look...know one could pull that hypothetical argument or collection of books together, because they don't exist...

What we have in our hands has been touched by human hands...but the consistency is uncanny...just look at the DEAD SEA SCROLLS version of the old testament, and pick up that Gideon bible printed last year in the hotel room...THEY ARE EXACT! Again, this piece by itself doesn't prove JC is who he said he was/is...but coupled with the other peices in my thread...I think he lends itself to further investigation...

Thx for replying!

[edit on 23-7-2008 by OldThinker]

Please forgive the ignorance, but you left the evidence for your key point out.

Please provide the specific statement, by Christ that he is God.

It is really critical to a coherant discussion.

My understanding is that he is the son of God. Not God proper.
In my understanding he has divinity, which is to say powers appearing God Like.

In the Catholic system he is regarded as one third of God part of a triumverate. Three persons in one.

I think we need to clear up whome we are speaking of before we can get down to business. I would wager he did not lie. It is more likely that others misconstrued.

Take for instance the statement "Jesus is Lord!" Or "I am Lord!"

That can have quite a different meaning from "I am the one and only Lord God Creator of Heaven and Earth." Which is quite explicit.

Which is different from "I am the Lord of my castle."

It has always struck me as odd, just how few quotes there are of Jesus Christ in the new testiment. I get the feeling that he did not speak much. He must have been a very quiet man.

[edit on 23-7-2008 by Cyberbian]

Fair question...here's a quick response...I would encourage you to read the gospels and the new testament, there's alot more there.

"Through Jesus Christ all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:3). This includes all the stars, all the original animals and plants, and even the angels (Colossians 1:15-17).

JC said I and the Father are ONE

JC answered those who questioned him with the answer "I AM...." the way, the truth the life, the resuurection, the bread...etc, etc.

The Apostle Paul, who hated Christians, but turned, said that JC "holds all matter together."

He answered the ones who were putting him to death when they asked him are you devine? He said IAM THAT I AM...the continual state of being...well that's it for now...enjoy the journey!

Philippians 1:3
Old Thinker

I will throw another option into the mix:

Jesus was a political activist, using his knowledge of Jewish prophecy to enlist the support of Jews against the Romans.

Originally posted by OldThinker
Fair question...here's a quick response...I would encourage you to read the gospels and the new testament, there's alot more there.

"Through Jesus Christ all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:3). This includes all the stars, all the original animals and plants, and even the angels (Colossians 1:15-17).

JC said I and the Father are ONE

JC answered those who questioned him with the answer "I AM...." the way, the truth the life, the resuurection, the bread...etc, etc.

The Apostle Paul, who hated Christians, but turned, said that JC "holds all matter together."
He answered the ones who were putting him to death when they asked him are you devine? He said IAM THAT I AM...the continual state of being...well that's it for now...enjoy the journey!


Philippians 1:3
Old Thinker

You are a slippery old thinker, but you ain't getting away with the old bait and switch this time.
_________________
First quote, excluded: No evidence he spoke about himself in first person.
_________________
Second quote, Father and I are one. Dosen't make you your own father. Just a sign of unity. A sharing of what? Unspecified higher power / insight / authority.
_________________
JC answered those who questioned him with the answer "I AM...." the way, the truth the life, the resuurection, the bread...etc, etc.

These as I understand them are signs of leadership in the various world religions. None have the word "God" in them, even if you disagree.
__________________

The Apostle Paul, who hated Christians, but turned, said that JC "holds all matter together."

Again, not Christs words, not the word God.
__________________

He answered the ones who were putting him to death when they asked him are you devine? He said IAM THAT I AM

Again, not the word God.

____________________

You sir are dishonest, Not Jesus Christ.

Thx! If that was all he was, and you were his follower, would you have allowed yourself to be killed for him? A large portion of his direct followers were killed....because they would not deny, that had seen him after the ressurection, and knew they would ultimately be safe and see him again....

It's not very probable they would allow this for a mere man, but quite logical if he were God, and they knew it, fair?

Cyberbian, Hi!

Slippery? No, Flesh and bones maybe...

Dishonest? No, just open my brother...


Here's some more points to chew on...

=======

Yes, you are right Cyberbian, Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.”

That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!" Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior - Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, "But about the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected - proving His victory over sin and death.

Originally posted by Cyberbian
...Please provide the specific statement, by Christ that he is God. ...

Why do you think the Sanhedrin put him to death? You think because he was misunderstood?

Exodus 3:13-14

13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now, let's look at this passage:

John 8:52-59

52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The phrase "I AM" meant a very specific thing to the jews at that time. They knew EXACTLY what he was claiming. If some guy said to them, "Hey, I lived before Abraham", they would think him a kook. So why do they take up stones to cast at him? Look at the previous quote about Moses.

Here's another one.

Mark 14:61-64.

60And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

64Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Why do you think they said he blasphemed? He was claiming to be God. His enemies knew EXACTLY what he was claiming, and it was for this that they put him to death.

And as to how "little" Jesus did or said, John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

(All quotes from KJV)

[edit on 23-7-2008 by sir_chancealot]

Statistically I can not dismiss the overwhelming evidence he existed...BC and AD for starters...and many other points I mentioned in the original thoughts posted here...

Religion is man's attempt to get to God, probably a bad thing, I agree...with your points there...

JC is God's way of reaching to man...two differnet things here...

True followers of him are a force of good in this world...hundreds of hospitals, universitites and third world relief agencies, over the years...thank you for the response...

OT

PS: Cyberbian, u out there?

Originally posted by OldThinker
Either you BELIEVE or you REJECT. Really no other options right? If you believe, then to you HE IS LORD. If you REJECT there are really only two options for you.

1) JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR

2) JC didn't know he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LUNATIC.

Well, first of all, I have to disagree that there can be only two choices, reject or believe. I think there is a third choice;

3) Accept that Jesus made the statement, but that there is a mystery, an allegory, concealed within it.

All of his statements about his relationship to the Divine, or God, could also be taken in a more "Eastern" fashion. That he is One with God, that God dwells within him, that he is full of God. He also says;

"Become like unto me", says our Lord Jesus Christ. Be Holy as I am Holy. (Leviticus 11:44)

He seems to be holding out, as in the Eastern tradition, the possibility that ANYONE has the capacity for this holiness.

There is dispute as to whether Jesus was the physical son of God, or if he was filled with God and so became his son at his baptism.

From Wikipedia;

Adoptionism

Adoptionism, the belief that the man Jesus was adopted as the Son of God, was one of two popular Christologies in the 2nd century. One type of adoptionism, such as that held by the Jewish Christian Ebionites, held that Jesus became the Son of God at his baptism. The other type held that Jesus became the Son of God at his resurrection.

[edit] Cerinthus

The first-century proto-Gnostic Cerinthus taught that the Christ (a spirit) came to the man Jesus at his baptism, remained distinct from him (while guiding and teaching him), and then left him at the crucifixion.

What is held to be dogma today is merely currently the most popular of several competing theories from shortly after Jesus' death. "Most popular" does not necessarily mean "correct." (Though it also doesnt mean incorrect, either)

Dude, seek some help, I don't think you were hugged enough as a kid.
Don't be bothering Jesus with that stuff.

Originally posted by OldThinker

Yes, you are right Cyberbian, Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.”

Title of thread "Jesus is a liar" Justification" Jesus said he is God.

Nuff said!

You play the same game as those who killed him. Pity after all these years and your claim to be a follower. Don't read the bible, it's not what you need. Buy a mirror.

Cyberbian, If I have offended you...for trying to spark some interest in a very important topic, for both our souls/lives/eternity...in a creative way in my title, I apologize my brother...sincerely! But I do believe the LIAR option could be acceptable by some...just not me

Let's leave the emotion out of the thread ok? If you want to continue the dialog please respond to my and sir_chancealot's response to your question...his point by point answer to you was quite impressive...

WOOSAAA! Can we stay focused on the content, and not personal attack?

OT