Abrams: Texas jury OKs shooting burglars in the back?

I do admire the American justice system, as opposed to the "human rights" (perverse interpretation of the words) liberal system we have in Europe.

In Europe, the state is the alleged purveyor of rights, permissions and safety (there is no safety), in the US the individual is rightly given more freedom.

Obviously it isnt carte blance for shooting, each case still has to be assessed individually, but Im certainly in favour of the US (in this case Texan) method

reply to post by drwizardphd And Who Are You To Say That Mr. Horn Is A Lunatic That Has No Reason To Own A Gun ? This Man Did The Right Thing . He Told These Scum To Stop Or He Would Shoot . You Can Hear Him Racking The Action On His Scattergun . I Don't Know About You , But Anyone With One Live Braincell In Their Heads recognizes THAT Sound ! Now He Orders Them More Than Once To Stop Or He Will Shoot . He Gave Fair Warning And These Iidiots Chose To Not Comply With That Command . Instead They Decide To Either Keep Running Or They Decide To Charge This Man .Being As It's Dark He Believes They Are Going To Charge Him And He Fears For His Life . He Does What Is Understandably The Right Thing . He Shoots And He Shoots To Stop The Threat . Now These Idiots Must Of Feared The Cops More Than An Armed Citizen Which Is Pretty Darn Stupid if You Ask Me . If It Would Have Been Me In Mr. Horns Shoes , I Would Have Done The Same Thing .Nobody Wants To Take Someones Life Just For The Hell Of It Except All These Scumbags That Are Plagueing our streets more and more everyday . Read The Papers , Watch The News , Criminals And Stone Cold Murdering Animals are running amok on our streets , Killing innocent people for Ipods ! , Rapeing and killing children , Mugging elderly people that cant defend their selves , Killing Savagely Just For The Hell Of It . The List Goes On And On . And You Think That The Police Are Going To Protect You ? Wake The Hell Up ! By The Time The Cops Arrive You Or Your Loved One Are Already Dead . Too Late . Criminals Have more damn rights that honest citizens do . It's About Time People Started Teaching These Mad Dogs That They Will Die If They Decide To Attempt To Harm Honest Hardworking Law abiding People . Quit Coddling these bottom feeding scum . It's Time To Take Our Streets and our safety back into our hands where it belongs . And I Will Bet Ya A Dollar That ya would'nt walk the streets of Chicago at night by yourself . Not Without A Gun Would You ? So Enough Of The Liberal Anti gun Retoric , It Dont Fly !

Originally posted by Animal
You guys are talking about KILLING as if it is the ONLY recourse. I highly doubt any of you is so simple as to assume that KILLING someone is the only way of protecting your home. And if you do, I feel sorry for you.

Oh... well I wonder what Washington Redskins safety Sean Taylor would have done. Seeing as he was killed by intruders in his home. You can't just assume that people breaking into your home are unarmed. You aren't just protecting your home, you just may also be protecting your own life.

additionally, if you have kids at home, you are always going to err on the side of caution (you may do so anyway without kids), but I dont blame anyone for dealing with such intruders

reply to post by BlackOps719

quote:
"And I have a Benelli 12 guage sitting behind my bedroom door that says I will never die as a result of not being able to shoot back."

Rest assured that you will never die as a result of not being able to shoot back. If guns have anything to say in the case of your demise, it will be the one the other guy is holding, not yours. Actually: if you are in a conflict and your opponent has a gun and you dont, he has *LESS* reasons to shoot you then if you had one. Threatening to shoot is just as effective as shooting, but only works if your opponent is *not* armed. If your opponent is armed too the only way to go is escalation. so your ability to shoot back will more likely be the reason for your demise then your inability.

Some people do not need guns, why would deadly force decisions police use be more stringent than one that a civilian can excercise that has absolutely no training beyond knowing how to aim and shoot ? I had to give this one a hard look, I believe the only right this man had to do what he did was if his life was in imminent danger or if he himself was not able to premeditate and decide to confront or avoid and keep his own self safe and removed from harm or they were actually entering or was in his home, he introduced himself into the situation after notifying police and he was in absolutely no danger, this in itself should be considered criminal.

It is pitiful to think that Mr. Horn must have at least observed these activities of breaking and entering for some time before calling the police and recognized it as such and possibly assessed if they were even armed or not, for one he saw some people that were apparently stealing which it does turn out they were doing, but to put one situation out there such as suppose these were relatives or someone simply breaking in to get their own property back or clothes after some family dispute, Mr. Horn's judgement and observations quickly arrived at they were robbers.

Mr. Horn from what I heard on the 911 tape was looking for an endorsement or atta boy of sorts for committing murder, he was in his own home, he was in contact with 911 and police were on the scene within minutes, this allows a non professional to make a professional decision in some ways is a hand off especially he was only a witness to the robbery, this leaves a huge window of error, not that police do not make mistakes.

If you listen to this idiot on the phone the 911 operator clearly explains to him the common sense approach to the situation and repeatedly warned him to stay in his house since the police have now been contacted and dispatched, to me I hope that justice is somehow served to this individual through either a higher court or legal proceeding, there is absolutely no excuse for what he did regardless of the weak, old west hang em high law that exists there.

He seems like a trigger happy individual by his responses and defiant tone that was itching for any opportunity to take advantage of the law. I like my neighbors and some I do not like, but I do not love my neighbors enough to kill someone stealing after I have notified 911 and especially do not feel I would confront them after I know full well the police are on their way and I am in my house out of harms way, these guys were fleeing the house they weren't holding the neighbor hostage, or harmed anyone, Mr. Horn actually knew the neighbor was not home also.

I am not endorsing the wrong actions of the burlars neither am I endorsing the judge juror and execution role Mr. Horn played when he chose to introduce himself to the situation and actually we really don't know the real facts of what he mentioned about them coming onto his property that could have been his excuse, for all we know did he drag them back to his property ? and why were they shot in the back? he told them don't move after the first shot, we know they were illegal immigrants, did they understand him? i do not believe his story offered to cover for himself because he already stated knowledge of the newly passed law and knew that would be the only way he could ambush the robbers and murder them.





[edit on 2-7-2008 by phinubian]

Originally posted by phinubian
If you listen to this idiot on the phone the 911 operator clearly explains to him the common sense approach to the situation since the police have now been contacted and dispatched, to me I hope that justice is somehow served to this individual through either a higher court or legal proceeding, there is absolutely no excuse for what he did regardless of the weak, old west hang em high law that exists there.

I was listening to parts of the 911 call on tv this morning, and yeah the guy is not that bright. He said a lot of things on that call that he should NOT have said.

But honestly I don't care about thieves/rapists/random criminals that prey on others getting shot. Good riddance. If one wants to lower their chance of being gunned down then don't burglarize homes.

As far as doing what the 911 operators tell you to do, realize they were advising people in the twin towers NOT to exit the building, when the people said they wanted to try and get out the operators insisted that they stay put and wait for "the authorities".

Originally posted by phinubian

but to put one situation out there such as suppose these were relatives or someone simply breaking in to get their own property back or clothes after some dispute,

That instance would still be a crime. You don't have the right to take people's property away (minus their consent) without some kind of court order. that would be, um . . . taking the law into your own hands. . . .

[/irony]

He seems like a trigger happy individual by his responses that is itching for any opportunity to take advantage of the law.

"Taking advantage of the law" is not a crime. Lawyers do it every day. So do prosecutors. Maybe the problem is when mere taxpayers "take the law into their own hands." Funny how everybody has rights and authority, from the courts to the police to the criminals themselves. . . .

I think many people who object to his actions feel like he had no "authority" to act. They asume that being a neighbor or friend has no bearing in the case, and Horn basically had no interest in the situation. In other words, that community is irrelevant.

I think part of the cultural gap here is that there are places left in community where community is the primary social relationship. I think mass society has largely replaced community in many people's minds, and they assume that Horn wasn't merely minding his business. In some places, community IS your business. your responsibility.

I am not endorsing the wrong actions of the burlars

And yet you feel that they were wronged because someone stopped them from completing their crime.

neither am I endorsing the judge juror and execution role Mr. Horn played when he chose to introduce himself to the situation

He CHOSE???

He was witnessing a crime. He had a legal duty to respond.


I'd say, it's open season on felons in the act of . . . of felonizing.


Have you ever been robbed?
.

Yes he chose, he notified the proper authorities who were on the scene in minutes possibly at the same instant he was carrying out his murdering spree, after that he has no jurisdiction to introduce himself to the crime, this was clearly the loophole and if this case gets another shot this is where the argument will be formulated from, I do believe justice will be served in this case after further adjudication. I have been burglarized, however, I was safe, no one was hurt and I would have liked to see the perpetrators prosecuted within the parameters of that crime, but would I like to see them executed ?


[edit on 2-7-2008 by phinubian]

Alright, I have to say this.

First off, Americans watching out for other Americans, is a rarity. Would I do the same for a neighbor of mine? Hrmm.....not exactly. This is definitely an odd situation, because it stirs lots of differing opinions/emotions. All I can add, is my own feelings.

First off, I wouldn't have sat on the phone with the 911 op, b/c his opinion sure as hell doesn't matter to me. I don't dial 911.

2nd off.... why are you people so adamant about the "boo hoo poor immigrant couldn't speak english didn't know to stay still".....? Jesus, is it not enough that they have committed at LEAST 2 wrongs beforehand? Burglary, and being here illegally? I mean, seriously....just let em have your house if you love them so much.

This is how I see it. I work hard. I barely get by, I don't really waste....I do the best I can, and ask no one for nothing.

If the situation was changed, and they were breaking in MY house, this is how I feel.

(if this pisses you off, I really don't care).

Some other guy said "oh a nintendo isn't worth a life...bla bla"

F### that, MY disposable razors are worth more to me than some scum who thinks he has a right to VIOLATE MY PERSONAL SPACE, MY PROPERTY< MY SANCTITY. I have no problem with saying wholeheartedly...that If I find you in my house, or sneaking out of my house with my stuff.....you are a dead man. I work too hard, for too little, to have it taken away from me by some piece of crap that has no respect, no value, no morals. If I don't shoot you, by the time I beat the holy hell out of you with whatever I can get my hands on, you are going to wish I'd have just shot you. Because you will be hurt. Permanently. I assure you. Come break in my house....see if I am lying.


Enough pity for the morons. Enough trying to witchhunt people who have balls.
Was this guy overly happy about what he did? Yes, IMO..... so what? 2 less pieces of crap to steal, rape, cause my insurance rates to raise, cause my taxes to pay for their fornication, etc....

And all that goes for all criminals, not just illegal immigrants. If you are a theif, your days are numbered in this country, u can bet on it.

I totally agree with the fact that if someone is in my home, threatening me and my safety I have the full right to utilize deadly force to protect both myself and MY property, what I do not agree with is the Texas law, actually I am not my brothers keeper, like was said it is rare that someone even would care that much to kill over their neighbors property, a lot of people in todays society would be more apt to want to actually kill their neighbors over trite disputes such as noise or other stupid things.

Lets not try and get emotional and confuse this with if these guys were breaking into Mr. Horns house, he had plenty of time to reason, instead he took the vigilante approach, after he called police, this to me is the irony.

Please lets not keep putting the right you have that is prevalent about all states if you are endangered directly and they in your house,out there and trying to tie this into his act of complete stupidity, when WAAAAY across the street he saw burglars, then inserted himself into the picture on someone elses property, suppose they shot him ? it would truly reveal the ignorance of his actions, he was lucky enough to ambush these criminals plain and simple only after he assesed they were unarmed and would have NO advantage Mr. Horn chose to take two human lives plain and simple, but lets not dehumanize them because of their crime of burglary as reprehensible as it is it would never rise to the ocassion of any court to put them to death here in America.

My point is outside of the Texas Law, he had absolutely no right to kill anyone nor insert himself into the situation to force the law, that was for law enforcement the moment he conveyed to 911 the fact that his neighbors house, NOT his had been broke into, he was in absolutely no imminent danger when he picked up the phone and yes at that time had full view of the situation outside and was holding a loaded shotgun, ample personal defense on top of being safe and sound in house own house, all of his property intact.


[edit on 2-7-2008 by phinubian]

This is my last post in this thread. I just want ot say one more time that all of you who are speaking in favor of killing over property ARE N
OT talking about it in the CONTEXT of the OP.

You all talk about protecting yourselves, and defending your home from robbers, fine I don't much care how you want to live your life in this regard, your decisions are your decision.

Trying to dismiss my points with this logic IN THIS CASE is simply faulty logic.

The KILLER in this case created the confrontation, he life was in no way threatened UNTIL he made the decision to FORCE a confrontation.

So talk all the BS you want about "protecting my family" "getting shot for burglarizing the white house" "protecting myself" "my stereos is worth more than a criminals life", it is all pointless in this situation yet 99% of you have refused to address the situation at hand.

Would have been a really cool debate but rather than sticking to the issue you all went hog wild about your Texan right to shoot each other, yee haw. I find it hysterical that you guys tout this as a reason to be proud of being Texan.

Look where it got Bush (and the USA) guys....

I agree with the guy above me 100%. Now, the question is, where IS the line drawn, about protecting ones brother/neighbor/a complete stranger. Do we have a duty, or a responsibility other than moral?

I don't know if it is truly defined or not, if anyone does, please educate myself and those who also aren't sure. What I mean is, if calling 911 wasn't an option, etc..... where is the line in the sand drawn, not personally, but legally/etc?

Originally posted by phinubiansuppose they shot him ?

If they had shot him it would have NEVER made the national news. Think about that for a while.

[edit on 2-7-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by whaaa


First of all ,where in my post did I refer to you? Do you see any name in that post? I actualy was refering to Animals picking apart another post and not even comming close to the facts. Not having a name in the beginning of the post is my fault and I am sorry that the program ATS uses sometimes does not insert properly when clicking on 'reply to'. If I wanted to insult you I would have, with your name plainly shown.
Zindo

Ok, let it be known that in Texas, burglars can be shot.

Therefore, if you don't want to be shot during a burglary... DON'T BURGLE!!!

There you go.

reply to post by Animal


So answer this, if you had to live in a neighborhood full of guys like the vigilante, or guys like the thieves, which would you prefer? Assume you have defenseless family members at home alone all day when you answer.

Yes I realize you said you have made your last post, but maybe you are just frustrated.

Horn's account of the events leading up to the shootings differs sharply in parts with what can be heard on the tape of the call he made to 911 shortly after seeing the men allegedly breaking into his neighbors' house.

He said he was upstairs in his gameroom, tinkering with a computer, when the quiet of the Village Grove East subdivision was shattered by the sound of breaking glass. He instinctively blamed the family cat, Horn said, before realizing that the noise had come from outside.

He looked out the window and saw two men, both dressed in dark green T-shirts, blue jeans and tennis shoes, breaking into his neighbors' home through a block glass window.

He called 911 on his cell phone.

He said he began to feel scared. He didn't know who the men were, nor if his neighbors were home and were in danger. Was his home the next target?

He went to his car to get a 12-gauge shotgun he kept in a leather case on the floorboard.

"All I was thinking was, 'Oh my God,' " he said. "You lose track of time. You don't ever think about that. You start thinking about all kinds of things. ... I was feeling helpless."

From his upstairs window, Horn said he saw the men leave his neighbors' home and walk around the back of the house where he couldn't see them.

While still on the phone with the 911 dispatcher, he said he went downstairs with the goal of getting a description of the men to give police.

But, according to the transcript, he provided the dispatcher a far different motive:

Operator: Mr. Horn, do not go out the house.

Horn: I'm sorry. This ain't right, buddy.

Operator: You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with that gun. I don't care what you think. Stay in the house.

Horn: You wanna make a bet? I'm gonna kill 'em.

As he was going downstairs, Horn said the fear and adrenaline rush was intense.

"I'm thinking if they go out the front door, I can't see them at all," he said. His plan was to look out the front door window to get a better view of his neighbor's house. Seeing nothing, he ventured outside.

He said he took one step off his front porch and saw nothing. "I felt great. I was so relieved that I didn't see anything. I thought, 'It's over with.' "

Then he saw the men come around the corner and head into his front yard. Horn had his cell phone in his front shirt pocket while he handled the shotgun.

'No fear in their eyes'

"It went from 'I'm glad it's all over' to instant fear," he said.

He shouted the words he now regrets: "Move, you're dead." The men — about 10 feet and 13 feet from him — stopped immediately. They looked at one another and said nothing.

"There was no fear in their eyes," Horn said.

One of the men, believed to be Torres, started to charge him, Horn said. He fired.

"There was no time to aim," Horn said. "To this day, I still don't know where I shot."

Horn said he turned slightly to the right and fired toward the second man, Ortiz, who ran at a fast pace back in the direction of his neighbor's house. Torres remained in his yard and was walking back toward Horn. He fired a third shot.

Horn didn't think his shots struck either man.

"I went inside because the guy (Ortiz) disappeared," he said. "I thought he was behind the house. ... I was desperate for the police to get there."

A police car screeched to a halt in front of his house. An officer drew his gun and ordered him "on the ground."

Horn, who still had his cell phone to his ear, dropped face-first and was handcuffed.

He was eventually allowed to sit up and saw one of the men across the street, lying prone. "I thought I scared him enough to fall to the ground."

It wasn't until he overheard one officer tell another that "there were two burglars and this man just killed them" that he realized both men were dead.

The moment was surreal.

"It was like nothing I've ever felt," Horn said. "It was like it wasn't really happening. Just numb."

www.chron.com...

According to his account, the confrontation was not forced. He went to have a look for a better description. He then went to see if they had left, feeling "relieved" that they may have.

You value human life too far above human liberty. Our founding fathers obviously agreed that we should be able to defend our property.

Animal, the problem you have is the laws of our nation. If you feel so strongly, by all means try to have them changed. It will likely be fruitless, as evidenced by the overwhelming support i have seen for Mr. Horn in this thread, as well as many others (both on this forum and on other forums).

Originally posted by Animal

Trying to dismiss my points with this logic IN THIS CASE is simply faulty logic.

You mean, like this?

I find it hysterical that you guys tout this as a reason to be proud of being Texan. . . .

Look where it got Bush (and the USA) guys....

Is this what you mean by faulty logic? Actually, it's a red herring, coupled with ad hominem and straw man attacks.

Like others have said. If Horn had been killed, it wouldn't be news. You're only outraged b/c a state exists where the government doesn't have a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.

You want to talk about the REAL statistics? Uniformed police kill innocent civilians about 11% of the time, when there's deadly gunfire in Texas. Innocent civilians are killed by civilian defenders less than 1% of the time.

This is probably due to police acting they way they are trained to in an instaneous, no-time-to-ask situation; whereas civilians, when they pull the trigger, usually hesitate, and give advance warning before doings so.

So, odds are, if you are killed by someone other than a criminal commiting capital murder here, you are ten times more likely to be killed by a cop than you are by a civilian.

-an ex-leo.

[edit on 2-7-2008 by dr_strangecraft]

reply to post by Anonymous ATS





I guess that is a risk I am willing to take chief, thanks for the concern though


You can rely on the kindness and humanity of armed criminals if you want, and pray that they don't kill you as you are forced to beg for your life. I, on the other hand, don't really have that kind of faith in human kind, especially the vermin who commit these types of crimes.

If they can make it into the house and manage to take me out before I make it to that doorway, good on them...chalk one up for the bad guys.

But may God and Allah and Jesus and the flying spaghetti monster all help them if they try and come up short.

All due respect, but my negotiating skills aren't the greatest and Im too big of a target to run away. Easier to just light the place up and let nature run it's course.



Edit to add: and in answer to your previous post, if there is someone in my house that shouldn't be there, Im not going to waste time "threatening" anyone. The only threat will be the sound of the safety clicking off.

[edit on 7/2/08 by BlackOps719]