Abrams: Texas jury OKs shooting burglars in the back?

I live in washington and am proud to be one of few "stand your ground" states.

"Washington is a "Stand Your Ground" state, in which there is no duty to retreat in the face of what would be perceived by an ordinary person to be a threat to themselves or others by another person that is likely to cause serious injury or death."

en.wikipedia.org...-your-ground

Arguing the use of deadly force here is silly IMHO.
Though not all robbers bear arms, enough do, and use them for it to be legimate to use deadly force on robbers in cases like this. Your saying this man should have given the robbers the chance to come over to his home, discover him and possibly use deadly force first? **** that **** . Robbers are already showing that they are of weak morals and not to be trusted. If it were me I would have done the same. Only I wouldn't have asked them to freeze once I saw them stealing. I would have started shooting right off the bat and never given them the chance to open fire on me if they had guns.

Sorry to be bold but you are damn ignorant to think a person doesn't have this right. If you want to not do anything, so be it. Take that chance and live your life how you want. But don't tell other people to lay down and die when threatened. You envade, you take risk. Don't want to die? Don't envade. Nuff said!

P.S. I fully support corporate theift. Stealing from huge greedy companys is OK by me. Run them out of buisness and let small buisness come back in its stead. But taking from fellow hard working men, not ok.

[edit on 3-7-2008 by Ciphor]

America has a morbid fascination with guns and violence and has yet again sunk to a new low. Back shot killing is flippantly applauded as an appropriate sentence simply for stealing. I wonder if you should now shoot current thieves sitting in your over crowded prisons, there for similar offenses . What is the current value of live in America? a TV and broken window. In America life has become cheap reminded me of a third world country with vigilantes justices
America tells the rest of the world how to be democratic and to trust in honest justice, yet killing people with a shot in the back is concidered fair punishment for minor property theft, even if you do not own the property in peril.

Who said? "Let the punishment fit the crime."

Shame on America!

reply to post by Animal

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The problem with your arguement is that the founding fathers already had some history with the Crown of England in that they were never allowed to own weapons or protect their property and families. The 2nd Amendment is a RIGHT given by GOD and PROTECTED by MAN's SELF GOVERNANCE.

For those of YOU who don't agree in defending one's self and property, DON'T bother calling 911 when your home is broken in to, your wife or kids are raped or killed and you're sniveling like a 2 yr old under the stairs.

Those of us who would protect ourselves and our families and our property have the RIGHT to do so. Suggest you do the same and BE A MAN !!!

The first 2 lines of this were good . The 2nd paragraph is kinda dumb. Cause if you don't call you cant claim on your insurance whatever got taken.

Btw those rights were given to us by our founding fathers. If they were given by "god" no one would have had to leave Briton to escape the persecution. And they would have had guns already.


[edit on 3-7-2008 by d11_m_na_c05]

Mr. Horn is a true Hero... Some of you say he "forced the confrontation"... I disagree, he had every right to walk into his front yard, it is after all HIS front yard. We should not be expected to cower in our homes while criminals walk the streets outside. I wish Mr. Horn was my neighbor because I would ask him to watch my home during my frequent travels.

when this happened they were playing the 911 call on all the radio stations around here. the guy DID give them every opportunity to drop the stolen items. they did not and even came at him.

i know this will be an unpopular stance, but i actually found the 911 call to be quite amusing as did the majority of even liberal radio hosts here in tx.

the ppl know here in tx that if you go into someone else's house uninvited, you are taking your life into your own hands. i fault the thieves, not the man who was protecting the property. if they had been doing their own thing and keeping their hands to themselves, they would not be six feet under.

you go mr. texan! (i really wish tx would just break away from all the twisted thinkers in the rest of the country..... not all, but the majority do not understand the concept of personal protection)

it's called personal accountability and tx probably is one of the last states in most, but not all regards that understands the concept.

Well I dont kow where you are posting from , but your obviously not in America.

We are simply FED UP with Crime here, and tired of working our asses off to get something that we have to GUARD like HAWKS every time we go to the 7-11. We have all had enough, and its time for a change.

Yes.. someone breaks MY window, or takes MY property ,
they get shot. That includes breaking into my truck as well.

Its really simple, dont F with me or my neighbors.

If you F with me, I F you back. Or my Neighbors will.

Whats so hard to understand about that?

My Family has lived on this street since 1958.

We have the RIGHT to defend our property, our neighbors property, and our community. We MADE this Community what it is, and now we are getting a LOT of ILLEGALS, CRIMINALS, and Katrina "failure to evacuatees" moving in that think this IS the 3rd world, and that they can act and do anything that they please. They are the ones setting the 'standard' that they die by. Otherwise its a pretty nice place to be frankly. Just the crime that needs to be addresses in a special and extremely effective way.

You cross those lines, and YES you will get shot...

ANY Problem understanding the rules ?

Are you ready to play now? We can have fun and get along great.. We can probably make a lot of money together as well...just done disrespect those lines.

If you do , DONT expect ANY respect back, including a well placed SHOT.

If I blew kneeecaps off, or wounded a Burgular ID GET SUED, so I'll take the BACK SHOT anyday, and I'll make sure its a done deal.

I wont lose a wink over it either.

They Plan and Sneak against ME behind MY back, to screw me over. Why do they not deserve a shot in the back?

I'm not using a flamethrower on them, or torturting them, or skinning them alive. They are lucky as far as I'm concerned. Id really like to make an example out of the next SOB that I catch stealing, but I'll just have to shoot to kill and be done with it. Whats the problem with that? I'm still being Nice. Wasnt all that common in ENGLAND when we LEFT... something about the Catholic CHURCH doing that? hummm... a CHURCH torturing people...... Hell I'm just defending my property with a modern weapon, that is rather merciful in reality.

I'm glad we Left Mother England to start our own Country. There are obvious reasons that we did that are becoming even more obvious as this thread progresses.

Happy 4th of July all you Americans Out There!

Here is another reason to celebrate Leaving Jolly Ol' England.

I'll light a 'Rocket with Red Glare' for you tonight My Anninnymmouous friend.

And I'll be smiling thinking of you!


Blitzkreigen



[edit on 4-7-2008 by Blitzkreigen]

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

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IMHO you should read the thread and the article. It was in the dark and they were told to freeze. they did not and got shot. He could not tell if they were turning or pulling a gun. Just shadows in the night doing things they know are a risk to there lives. L2R Annymous.

reply to post by Blitzkreigen

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Mr. or Ms Blitzkreigen;
In reply

I think your frustration with crime has colored your acceptance for what constitutes proper justice.
I have in no way suggest criminals should be spoon fed or allowed to escape justice but because I do not agree with shooting someone in the back at the home of a friend is no reason to suggest I do not agree with punishment. Should shop owners shoot kids stealing candy, should we alow other shoppers to do for them if they do not see it? I envision an America where 12 years old get shot in the back for home invasions or stealing toys from WalMart by the guy next door or employees and this is considered fair justice. How about cutting off of some limbs like in the Middle East, how does that sound to you?. Sorry your attitude is tainted to the point that you could live with the shame and guilt of shooting another human being for minor property theft. I am not religious but “Thou Shalt not kill” ring a bell or even “Eye for an Eye” but death for a broken window and consumer goods is outrageously lopsided.

Letting that man off with killing was shocking an based on emotional perceptions with crime an frustration with the elected authorities who cant keep them safe or the boarder secure, it had little to do with the law. Reminded me of OJ some how it turned around that OJ was not on trial but racism was.

Crime should fit the punishment if not what does that suggest for the future of a country that values replaceable property over a human life or the legal system.

Some people are more protective than others in their mindset. Men, by nature are protectors. A good man, that is, is a protector by nature. It's simply in their genetic makeup.

When women have to use deadly force, it's done with more restraint unless her natural instincts to nurture are destroyed by abuse, drugs or alcohol. Abrams did what came natural to a good man. He protected his neighbor and himself.

Even in the Word of God, the Holy Bible, it is stated that we live side by side as neighbors to protect each other. I think it is in the book of Proverbs. When I had a neighbor I thought I could trust use my rural property to cook meth on, I felt very betrayed because I remembered this piece of scripture. He is now banned for life from stepping foot on my property. Forgive him? Yes. Trust him after his mom tells me he has had a hidden drug problem for nearly twenty years? No.

God expects us to look out for one another. In this case, Abrams did. A thief that comes by night pays with his life. That's OT scripture, too.

The correct Hebrew translation is "Thou shalt not murder." Killing and murdering are two different ideas. I can kill a human breaking into my home because here in Mississippi we have the Castle Doctrine law. I won't be charged with homicide and the doofus' family can't sue me for wrongful death. But, if I shoot and wound him and he crawls off and I track him down and then kill him when it is obvious I am not in danger anymore, well, that's murder. With this new Castle Doctrine law, I don't have to run away when my life is in danger anymore, but I am not allowed to track down an outlaw and kill him later. Do you understand the difference between killing and murder now?

One thing about killing a human being and even an outlaw scumbag raping border jumping beast that has it coming, that person will be with you for the rest of your life. Abrams is going to learn this, too.

I've talked to guys who have killed outlaws in defense of home and the women they loved and they are haunted by the memories of the event. Something about the taking of a human life for any reason grays the quality of the life of the person who does the killing, if they have a conscience. I'd kill if thoroughly convinced there was no way out of the situation (carjacking or someone in the same White Ford truck trying to run me off the road on several different occasions) and I'd be praying like crazy for God to get me out of the situation I was in, but if He decides not to then I'm going to tap the outlaw twice in the chest and once in the head and live with it as best as I can. There are worst memories. Just ask a rape survivor that was mutilated or the child who has to live with the memory of someone murdering (not lawful, self-defense killing) of their beloved parent or sibling in front of them.


[edit on 4-7-2008 by Bowcatz001]

I cannot imagine what some of you are thinking here.

Do some of you humaintarian types who think life is prescious ever understand the concept of RISK?? By the emotions and nonsense some of you are spouting it is obvious that your grasp of RISK is very limited.

What so many humanitarian feel good types totally ingnore is the RISK taken by many peoples in thier jobs/occupations to earn the moneys to make the purchases for themselves and their familys. RISK never enters into any of the scenerios you people post here. RISK never enters into the "FEEL GOOD" Politicians while putting limits on the people who take RISK in thier lives and earning their livings.

A taxi driver is a dangerous occupation, so is tractor trailer driver, So is farming, So in a convenience store operator.
Nursing can be very dangerous. Nurses often dont know what sickness to which they are exposed until a diagnosis/prognosis is made. They are often around patients for days before disgnosis is made.

All these people take RISKS for their moneys ..for the property earned by thier RISKS. You do not describe yourself as a moral person by putting these people in a position to take RISKS again for thier propertys....against a criminal element who would have them earn said propertys over again and again. You do not put these people second and third place down the line in priority while they are earning first place with their labors and the propertys earned with their labors. This is just plain immoral.
You have to go to public school to get this naturally stupid...ordinary thinking people are not this ignorant and just plain dumb. This includes politicians attempting to pass more dumb laws which protect low lifes.

Many of us take real first class RISKS with our lives and safety to earn our propertys. Dont ever try to put us second and third place when we work for first place with our propertys, moneys, time and then call it moral, ethical,...or the moral high ground. IT is obvious when you folks ignore the RISKS taken by many of us in our occupations that ..you dont consider our lives precious...by the RISKS we take. You would have us take RISKS ...with our lives in replacing stolen propertys..over and over to put ointment on your sentiments. Im telling some of you that you have to be educated in public schools to get this naturally dumb. Ordinary people who take RISKS for thier livings/moneys are not this dumb.

As a shipbuilder and also a nuclear fueler I have to stow my emotions to get my job done. I dont live for my emotions. Many others out here do the same in earning thier moneys at great RISKS. I know what RISK is in earning my moneys as well as do other posters on this thread.

None of us wants to hurt of kill anyone. We are prerpared to do it in order not to have to take RISKS over and over again to replace propertys taken.

You do also know that there is a growing trend around here in home break ins where the owners are in fact home. Homes around here are being broken into with the owners often hurt or killed in the process. This is becoming more and more common over the last three years.
What do you think people are going to do verses wait for the constabulary to come around and gather data to justify more constabulary??

None of you humanitarians seem to be wont to explain the concept of RISKS taken by ordinary people in earning thier moneys. In doing this you make these people expendable and disposable..more so than the low lifes taking these propertys. In the abscence of this view I am given to question your actual morality. It is not that far removed from the criminal element doing the stealing.
Think on this concept rather than emoting, labeling, or implying that people who take risks for their moneys/propertys and are wont to protect the same, as criminal or immoral.

Thanks,
Orangetom


[edit on 4-7-2008 by orangetom1999]

No offense but you people who do not think this guy was justified are morons. What would of happened if they turned to run and ran right to their car to grab guns themselves. There needs to be the fear that when you break into another persons house you risk being shot. I see ALL to often down here in Florida people break into peoples houses and the homeowners end up dead because they werent armed or prepared. Its sickening and the murderers never get caught. Im sorry but if it takes a case like this to make people think twice about breaking into other peoples houses then this guy is a freaking hero as far as Im concerned. The police are worthless. They are to busy nailing people for speeding tickets to help people who are getting properties raided or to help people from getting shot from thugs like these guys. You dont know HOW many houses these people have broken into or how many people they may have killed. Karma nailed them though. Good Riddance.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

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Shame on you anonymous poster.

America has been ravaged by criminals too long and the pendulum has swung far enough in that direction.

This is what's called a backlash.

Since you live in paradise, try not to concern yourself with out troubles.

We'll work them out. Thanks.

reply to post by Ciphor

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Reply to Mr or Ms Cliphor

Thank you for suggesting I read the whole thread and believe me I did as well as listing to the Whole! tape and “yes” I heard him say freeze long after he left the safety of his home and against the direct orders of the police who told him Not to go out and Not to shoot! Perhaps you may want to balance your emotional opinion with some fact and try to see the reality. Let me step out on limb and suggest something controversial I think that immigrant used in ugly reference was suggested more than once and wonder if America feels that these are not humans so have no feelings or families who love them. So for some it is about as moral as stepping on a bug today or shotting a Black or Chinese person the 1800s. Suppose it was high school kids from that town out doing something on a dare or young girls, now is the back shooting over property not your own just as expectable for replaceable consumer goods.
Fact, not his goods.
Fact, he is not in danger.
Fact, he was ordered by police not to go out.
Fact, he was ordered not to shoot living people.

The truth is he should have done what he was told some families would have their loved ones and the justice system would not be misused to cover a killing because people are emotionality afraid of crime immigrants, and the inability of your elected officials to keep you feeling safe.

Eyes Open

reply to post by GradyPhilpott

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reply to Mr GradyPhilpott

America as you say is being “ravaged by criminals” so you say that's reason enough to shoot people in the back for stealing consumer good that belong to another ? It's ok to flip off the police when they tell you to mind your own business stay safe in your own home and do not kill people. It ok to filp off Jesus who ordered “Thou Shalt not Kill” ( myth) and all because “Your mad as hell and are not going to take it anymore.” I am sorry you feel your society has let you down but killing a human posing no threat to you is not the answer and is this case absolutely not justifiable by any reason, logic, justice and possibly even your own law. I feel sorry for the man who did the shotting he will have to live with the fact that what he did the wrong thing and back shot someones child, dad. son. father, or husband.

Anonymous poster,

Thank you for confiriming my point about minimizing/ignoring the presciousness/value in the lives of thoses who earn the moneys to acquire the propertys taken/stolen..often at great RISK.

I watched the videos of those protesting this shooting. Many of the posters had nothing but race and race issues on their minds in order to support their points and like you they imply by taking people back in a time warp to make thier points.

Nowhere in any of these posts/videos..including the one featuring the wife of one of the people shot...nowhere did any of them mention the RISKS taken by the people who had property stolen...in earning the moneys to acquire these propertys stolen. No where was it ever put into question what was the morality of these men ...in takng the propertys of others. This issue or question never came up. It was glaringly absent from the video. It was obvious to me that this was a one way video with a one way issue and cause.

I will put emphasis on this point by quoting the very one way posting in which you and others are wont to view this.



Fact of the matter is that these people were immigrants. As to the non human point...Notice that the people from whom the propertys are stolen..are hardlhy mentioned..nor what risks are taken in earning these propertys. Are these people less than human too?? I am not for certain and may be mistaken..but were not these people whos home was broken into and propertys stolen....immigrants..from Vietnam?? This singular point makes the immigrant argument very thin. What morality or moral high ground is there in dismissing the RISKS of these people who's propertys had been stolen. How can people claim morality when ignoring totally the RISKS of these people to earn moneys to purchase these propertys??

Fact of the matter is that in Texas..in this city ..the people have had enough. They know what is going on in the big citys in Texas as well as all over this nation..and dont want a repeat of this nonsense. This is the Right of Texans serving on a Jury and for whatever reasons they think is proper and appropriate. Not us as outsiders. In case you havent noticed...these people are also voting "no confidence" in the politicial/judiciary system. This includes the local constabulary.
Now I will grant you ..that this is a very rough way of doing buisness...I would rather it be different ..but it is not. These people have spoken..who are we to question this or claim another moral high ground??

By the way...as a sidelight to this kind of thing..I dont know if it is still in effect...but a number of years ago...car jacking was becoming very popular here in the States. Many people were injured, even killed in the stealing of their automobiles..or left to walk long distances in questionable/dangerous territorys.

One state even went so far at to pass a law that you could kill someone who attempts to steal/carjack your automobile or transportation. The precident comes from horse and buggy days..to leave someone afoot is to subject them to tremendous lifethreatening RISK...even DEATH.

Once again it gels down to RISK.

Many of us take real life threatening RISK in earning our moneys. Dont sell us short to put ointment on your sentiments.
When the Law does not work or is ineffective..there are provisions for handling this in American Jurisprudence. Provisions are made for this reality. THe Grand Jury has spoken here. This is the reality..not your sentiments or feelings nor mine for that matter.

If people want to engage in questionable activity...be ready to suffer the RISKS. Not just inflict RISKS on others and claim moral high ground. Among thinking Americans ..this will not anymore wash.

Thanks,
Orangetom


[edit on 5-7-2008 by orangetom1999]

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

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Yeah Im sure the police would probably order the robbers not to rob but they did it anyways didnt they? How do you know that certain irreplaceable items passed down were not being taken also. This is this persons stuff. I understand your point are items worth someones life and I would say it depends on the scenario. If its you protecting YOUR stuff you worked hard for then yes know that when you break in MY home you risk a bullet from either me or my neighbors if Im not home. Where it is NOT right is if you are the one breaking into someones house to STEAL someones items why kill the person you are stealing FROM. Its bad enough your taking their stuff they worked hard for but now you will kill them?

Sorry, but I don't think that is the answer. Burglars should do what they're told. They should do what the law says, namely, not burglarize hard working people's houses because they are too lazy to work for their own possessions.