It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Abrams: Texas jury OKs shooting burglars in the back?

page: 2
4
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 06:38 PM
link   
reply to post by Animal
 





I would much rather be pittied by people like you than to be killed at the hand of an intruder wishing to do me harm.


And I have a Benelli 12 guage sitting behind my bedroom door that says I will never die as a result of not being able to shoot back.

Sorry man, but the world is a cold and dangerous place. You wait for police to save you and you will end up dead.




posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 06:41 PM
link   
reply to post by jhill76
 


I wasn't referring to your article. I was referring to the background on the incident and discussion of the Texas law.

Didn't mean to mislead you.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 06:44 PM
link   
Animal, your going to find that MORE states are going to pass laws like the Texas statute on property protection because the insurance companies are going to back it. If you don't want to get shot for burglury, stay out of Texas. Where I you. I'd be very carefull when you leave and reenter your house. Burglurs nowdays are shooting the homeonwners with no regard for the consequenses. Home invasions are on the rise in all states.

Zindo



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 07:12 PM
link   
I'm all for personal responsibility.

But the pendulum will swing back when some kid is killed by his father; sneeking back into his house after a nite out drinking with his friends.

Or a neighbor returning a neighbors runaway dog, mistaken as an intruder and shot dead.

or a friend kills his best friend while playing with daddy's gun.

Or a wife killing her husband and using the "bugler" defense.

or a drunk yahoo; cleaning his pistol blows off his privates and bleeds to death in minutes.


Or stoned macho highschoolers having a go at Russian roulette.

Or a just released mental patient going postal and killing a bunch of grade school kids with his Mommy's deer rifle.

or a bunch of good ole boys out huntin Javalina and drinkin Jack get into and argument over nuthin and killin each other.

How will you feel when thieves break in and steal your guns and kill a bunch of people with your guns. Thieves love gun cabinets.

There will be many more people killed unintentionally or by accidents
than criminals.

Or when a cop responding to a domestic disturbance is blown away as he gets out of his squad car.

Oh, and I'm a member of the NRA.

the pendulum swings....

I wish I was an attorney. Easy pickins....



Ps...and how about when Joe Horn and his family get ambushed and killed by the guys he killed, friends or family. These are some bad Hombres, don't kid yourselves. I'll wager Joe Horn *****bricks every time he leave the house. I'll wager Joe Horn wishes he had of listened to the 911 operator.

the pendulum swings...

and goddamn the heft and feel of cold steel makes a man feel powerful, doesn't it?













[edit on 1-7-2008 by whaaa]

[edit on 1-7-2008 by whaaa]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 07:22 PM
link   
If you feel that way friend, then do you have a problem with me breaking into your house and taking your belongings? Pretty sure you do. If I have a weapon, which is likely, or if I'm stealing something important to you, would you try to stop me?
When it comes to robbery, you need to assume the robber is armed, and treat them as if they were. The fellow could have held up before firing, but the fellow could have been pulling a weapon.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 07:28 PM
link   
I'd heard about this case when it first hit the news, then lost track. I am pleased with the current outcome.
We live in a world populated by the likes of Joe Horn and those individuals he shot. I am more comfortable with Mr Horn and his ethics than theirs.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 07:40 PM
link   
Bottom line is, if they hadn't been breaking the law, they'd be alive. Forgive me if I can't muster up a few crocodile tears for 2 illegals breaking into someone's house.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 08:13 PM
link   
The idea that we need to categorically handle these criminals with "kid gloves", comes from a type of society that I want no part of.

When you steal something that I bought with my hard earned money, you are taking also the time I spent earning said money. This is time away from my family, away from my home, and definitely not "fun-time".

Where is it listed that I have to let someone enter my home, and steal from me, and hope that the criminal justice system helps me out.

For the necessary burden or proof, I can just let my local government add cctv all over my neighborhood.

Yea, I would give up my self and property defense rights in exchange for 24 hour surveillance of all of mine and my neighbors activities.


So you believe that there is another way to deter crime than killing criminals?

Let me know, cause last I checked, the more comfortable the prisons, and more prevalent the criminal rights, the more crime goes up.

Same with murder. Ever since immediate and horrific capital punishment was removed, murder rates have skyrocketed.

Some of us here are idiots.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 08:18 PM
link   
I find a few thing very entertaining in all the replies my posts have gotten.


Originally posted by slackerwire
To those of you whining candyasses who feel bad for the dead criminals:

Man up nancy.


Not only is the insult not needed, it has nothing to do with the discussion. I would appreciate it if you have an issue with what I say you talk about the issue at hand not your suggestions on how to live my life.


Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by Animal
Guns are for hunting and protecting ones life NOT ones Nintendo and stereo. Validating such behavior is barbaric.

Umm....he was protecting his life.


The robbers were entering his NEIGHBORS HOME. The 911 operator told him to stay inside the police were on their way, yet he proceeded to KILL the men who were not in HIS home or threatening him in anyway.


Originally posted by Desert Dawg

Burglary and stealing stuff is not a game.
It's darned serious and if you want to get involved with stealing stuff, be prepared to pay the consequences.

I suspect that some of the liberal leaning folks will have a change of heart when their homes are illegally entered and valuable things are taken.


I would stand up for myself for sure, don't doubt that for one second. I am all for punishing those who do wrong as well. I am saying that the "street justice" seen in this case is insane. Burglary is not worth taking someone life PERIOD. I would be really upset if someone took all my possessions but ?I would NEVER dream of killing them over it.


Originally posted by centurion1211
reply to post by slackerwire
 


I know you're only joking, but Animal seems to be laboring under the very misguided assumption that the police would protect his property from people who really do feel that way.

Earth to Animal:

The police try to investigate crimes that have already happened, they don't prevent them - in spite of the "serve and protect" stickers they always have on their cars.

So, if you don't want to ever end up as a crime victim, you will have to take care of it on your own.



Ya and the 911 operator who told the shooter to stray inside because the police were on their way was lying…

He put himself in harms way in this instance. The burglars were not on his property. He shot them in the back, like a coward.


Originally posted by slackerwire

Let me guess....

You think we should run out the house screaming like a bunch of little girls and wait for the police to show up right?

Or would you suggest just maiming them with a shotgun blast to the kneecap so that they can sue you afterwards?


In another instance this makes sense but in this your assertion does not apply. The shooter was not under assault. He was told to stay indoors. He went out side, saw people in his neighbor’s yard and shot them in the back.


Originally posted by centurion1211

OK. So, what's the other recourse when you find an unknown person with unknown weapons in your home? Surely, you aren't planning on asking the perps to sit down and sing "Kum by ya", do you?

[edit on 7/1/2008 by centurion1211]


The shooter:


shot and killed (in the back) two burglars he saw breaking into his neighbor's house, even after a 911 dispatcher warned him repeatedly against going outside with his shotgun. link


He was safe, no one was in his home, he made a DECISION to confront and shoot these men. He chose “to make burglary a death penalty offence”.


Originally posted by BlackOps719
reply to post by Animal
 


I would much rather be pittied by people like you than to be killed at the hand of an intruder wishing to do me harm.


Again, NO ONE WAS IN HIS HOME. No one was "wishing to do him harm". That is your fabrication. It has nothing to do with this case. Or the situation at hand.

On and on. First off in these instances I have replied to none of you are even looking at the fact at hand. You all argue the case but set an entirely different set of parameters. No one was under threat. The police were on their way to make arrests. But this man chose to KILL. He made a conscious choice to kill men by shooting them in the BACK. You all talk about this as if the only reasonable solution to home intrusions is a gun. You can not be that simple minded can you?

You can ‘man up’ and talk like guns and killing are a ‘mans job’ and a ‘duty’ but making it legal for people to chose when someone else lives and dies is willful disregard for life.

What is most disturbing is the zeal with which so many of you talk about this subject.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 08:32 PM
link   
reply to post by whaaa
 



But the pendulum will swing back when some kid is killed by his father; sneeking back into his house after a nite out drinking with his friends.


Communication between father and son and house rules should avoid this scenario, plus a simple “Sorry pop, busted!”


Or a neighbor returning a neighbors runaway dog, mistaken as an intruder and shot dead.


Dumb scenario!


or a friend kills his best friend while playing with daddy's gun.


If daddy locks the weapon and the ammunition away (in separate places) then the kid should not be able to get the weapon. (house rules re gun responsibility.)


Or a wife killing her husband and using the "bugler" defense.


This would be embraced by the feminists movement, plus if hubby pi$$es her off that much, then get a divorce – it’s easy enough.


or a drunk yahoo; cleaning his pistol blows off his privates.


The gene pool will be grateful!


Or stoned macho highschoolers having a go at russian roulette.


Once again the gene pool is cleansed, and the theory of evolution is a step nearer confirmation.


Or a just released mental patient going postal and killing a bunch of grade school kids with his mommys deer rifle.


If mommy has a mental son and leaves the gun around for him then she should be considered criminally insane too!


or a bunch of good ole boys out huntin Javalina and drinkin Jack get into and argument over nuthin and killin each other.


Once again, the gene pool is cleansed!


There will be many more people killed unintentionally or by accidents
than criminals.


Not if people used their weapons responsibly there wouldn’t!


Oh, and I'm a member or the NRA.


Yeah, well that was given, and your gonads are still intact? I guess you must show some responsibility in storage and handling of your guns


the pendulum swings....

I wish I was an attorney. Easy pickins....


Like fish in a barrel huh!



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 08:44 PM
link   
Firearms accidents have gone DOWN in the last 15 years. Your scenarioshave all been screamed about buy the Anti's for years and none has come to fruition. You sound more like a 'Handgun Control' plant than an NRA member. if you where a member you would already know that your statistics are wrong.

Zindo



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 08:49 PM
link   
Here is the deal.

1) If you break into someone's house, there is a good chance you will be shot.

2) If you break into someone's home in Texas, you might live through it, to be gunned down in the street by the neighbor, as you attempt to flee the scene.


Lessons to be learned.

1) Don't take stuff that isn't yours.

2) Don't mess with Texas.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 08:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by ZindoDoone You sound more like a 'Handgun Control' plant than an NRA member. if you where a member you would already know that your statistics are wrong.

Zindo


Nope, been a member since 1975. What statistics?
I'm a responsible gun owner and I don't appreciate your insults.

[edit on 1-7-2008 by whaaa]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 09:01 PM
link   
Well, here's my hard earned lesson and I was lucky.

Last winter, about 0100 the dogs started barking.
They're doxies and live indooors and a great early warning system.

I saw a shadow at the back door, looked out the window and thought I'd seen one of granddaughters friends.

Guy about 17-18 years old.

I went outside to see what was up and then realized he was a stranger.

I shine the light in his eyes and all the time he had his hands in his pockets.
He left and when he did I saw the about 2 year old Cadillac in the driveway.
The car was a gangbanger special and it was then that I called the cops.


Mistakes made:

I shoulda called the cops first, they're only a couple of miles away and usually have a good response time.

I was stupid not to have stuck my 44 Special in my pocket before I went outside.
Never again on that.


Imagine my surprise when the prowlers photo ended up on the front page of the local paper several months later as an "alleged" - a BS term if I ever heard one - rapist and he was noted for carrying a big knife which he used during the rape.

I was lucky not to have approached him too close.
The 3 and 4 cell Mag Lights are a reasonably good weapon, but taking a flashlight to a knife fight ain't the smartest thing in the world.

I wouldn't shoot if I could avoid the situation, but, by the same token a prowler is not going to steal from me or hurt my family.


The world is like it is because liberals are afraid to punish criminals and wrong doers....


[edit on 1-7-2008 by Desert Dawg]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 09:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by Animal

The robbers were entering his NEIGHBORS HOME. The 911 operator told him to stay inside the police were on their way, yet he proceeded to KILL the men who were not in HIS home or threatening him in anyway.



Do you not read very well? He was asked by his neighbor to watch out for his property. In Texas, this means you keep people from doing anything, using the same force you would use for your own belongings. this kind of goes back to the days of horses and cowboys.

as well, Mr. Horn should not have to stay inside his house because of criminals. Especially in a rural area where police response can be slow.

regardless, if i tell my neighbor i will watch over his stuff, by God i will do it. It is called "honor" and "pride", something we have plenty of in Texas.



I would stand up for myself for sure, don't doubt that for one second. I am all for punishing those who do wrong as well. I am saying that the "street justice" seen in this case is insane. Burglary is not worth taking someone life PERIOD. I would be really upset if someone took all my possessions but ?I would NEVER dream of killing them over it.



This is not "street justice", it is "country justice". You obviously are not from around here. And you are not familiar with our laws. To be honest, i find it ridiculous that i cannot turn on a red light in NYC...but that is their law.



Ya and the 911 operator who told the shooter to stray inside because the police were on their way was lying…

He put himself in harms way in this instance. The burglars were not on his property. He shot them in the back, like a coward.



Another myth being perpetuated. If you want to argue, argue the facts, not your daydreams.

Mr. Horn shot them in the back because it was dark and he told them not to move. They chose to move (by turning to run), and he shot them. If they weren't dumb enough to try and call his bluff, they might be alive today.




In another instance this makes sense but in this your assertion does not apply. The shooter was not under assault. He was told to stay indoors. He went out side, saw people in his neighbor’s yard and shot them in the back.



He was told to stay inside by a 911 operator, who was not on the scene and new VERY little about what was going on. I am unsure her scripted advice really is worth following.

I will repeat: your "spin" is a lie. You are leaving out important parts of the story so that you can perpetuate your flawed logic. Your insistence on perpetuating untrue events is going to cause me to lobby to have your thread labelled a "Farce" or something, honestly.


He was safe, no one was in his home, he made a DECISION to confront and shoot these men. He chose “to make burglary a death penalty offence”.


He made a decision to confront these men, as was his obligation. THEY made the choice to get shot by refusing to listen and by breaking into homes.




On and on. First off in these instances I have replied to none of you are even looking at the fact at hand.



I believe you are not looking at any "facts" of this case, outside of those which allow you to argue your position.

Look, whether he was right or wrong, in MY state, you are likely to end up dead if you try breaking into a home. Texans carry guns in public, of course our homes are defended.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 09:13 PM
link   
When I first heard this story I had very conflicting feelings, and to be honest I was right up there with you Horn supporters. I felt he had honestly done his community a service.

However, that was until I read the transcript of the police call. Anyone who reads that will see that Horn was a lunatic. He killed those two guys in cold blood, with shots to the back, to defend a few thousand dollars worth of stuff. The two criminals were trying to get away and were unarmed.

Read it for yourself.

Face it, the man was in no position to be owning a gun. He committed premeditated murder, against the advisement of the 911 operator. I support the second amendment as much as the next guy, but Joe Horn was no more of a responsible gun user than any other gang banger or street thug.

People here are talking about how he was defending against criminals, but what you all fail to see is that MURDER is a far worse crime than stealing. Joe Horn was not defending himself. He was imposing vigilante justice, and two men that didn't have to die did. There's no excuse for that, I don't care if they are career criminals or not.

I used to be a die hard 2nd amendment supporter, but this case and some of the reactions from some of you have actually made me think our nation needs gun control. I'd feel safer walking through the streets of Chicago at night than through a suburban neighborhood in Texas.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 09:14 PM
link   

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal

The robbers were entering his NEIGHBORS HOME. The 911 operator told him to stay inside the police were on their way, yet he proceeded to KILL the men who were not in HIS home or threatening him in anyway.



Do you not read very well?


Once again I will ask that people leave out insults when they respond to comments I make that hey disagree with, lets stick to the issue please.



Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
I would stand up for myself for sure, don't doubt that for one second. I am all for punishing those who do wrong as well. I am saying that the "street justice" seen in this case is insane. Burglary is not worth taking someone life PERIOD. I would be really upset if someone took all my possessions but ?I would NEVER dream of killing them over it.



This is not "street justice", it is "country justice". You obviously are not from around here. And you are not familiar with our laws. To be honest, i find it ridiculous that i cannot turn on a red light in NYC...but that is their law.


Yes not turning on a red light is silly, but they do it to SAVE LIVES not take them.... The comparison is rather weak IMHO.


Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
Ya and the 911 operator who told the shooter to stray inside because the police were on their way was lying…

He put himself in harms way in this instance. The burglars were not on his property. He shot them in the back, like a coward.



Another myth being perpetuated. If you want to argue, argue the facts, not your daydreams.

Mr. Horn shot them in the back because it was dark and he told them not to move. They chose to move (by turning to run), and he shot them. If they weren't dumb enough to try and call his bluff, they might be alive today.


You repeated basically the same thing as me, where did I stray from the facts as you assert? Personally I would appreciate sticking to the issue and avoiding personal commentary, thanks.


Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
In another instance this makes sense but in this your assertion does not apply. The shooter was not under assault. He was told to stay indoors. He went out side, saw people in his neighbor’s yard and shot them in the back.



He was told to stay inside by a 911 operator, who was not on the scene and new VERY little about what was going on. I am unsure her scripted advice really is worth following.

I will repeat: your "spin" is a lie. You are leaving out important parts of the story so that you can perpetuate your flawed logic. Your insistence on perpetuating untrue events is going to cause me to lobby to have your thread labelled a "Farce" or something, honestly.


One again please refrain from attacking ME, and stick with the issue at hand. What have I said that is untrue? What have I done to have my posts removed of to have some sort of post ban imposed on me? Disagreeing with your opinion is not an offense here, insulting others or sharing knowingly false information is.


Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
He was safe, no one was in his home, he made a DECISION to confront and shoot these men. He chose “to make burglary a death penalty offence”.


He made a decision to confront these men, as was his obligation. THEY made the choice to get shot by refusing to listen and by breaking into homes.


Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
On and on. First off in these instances I have replied to none of you are even looking at the fact at hand.



I believe you are not looking at any "facts" of this case, outside of those which allow you to argue your position.

Look, whether he was right or wrong, in MY state, you are likely to end up dead if you try breaking into a home. Texans carry guns in public, of course our homes are defended.




I do not argue about weather or not it is LAW in your state, I argue that the LAW is a crock of bull poo. I argue that killing someone for theft is insane and the punishment does not match the crime. I am arguing that being told by 911 to stay inside and not listening, charging outside with a loaded gun, shooting people in the back who are RUNNING AWAY from you sounds more like MURDER than protection.


Edits to fix messy links...

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Animal]

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Animal]

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Animal]



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 09:15 PM
link   
I can't believe the number of people on ATS that defend criminals; from burglars to child rapists. It's sickening. I for one don't give two damns about people who feel the need to burgle upstanding citizens. To me, robbing someone of their hard earned possessions is way worse than shooting the burglar in the back.

I wish it was like that in Canada. Right now we just got to sit back and let the burglar take what he wants, or risk jail time ourselves.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 09:21 PM
link   
reply to post by TheComte
 


I assume your referring to me as I am the only one with a dissenting opinion in this thread, wait there is one other. Regardless, I would like you to point out where either of us were DEFENDING criminals in any way shape or form.

My beef is with the use of lethal force being a legal choice in situations such as this.



posted on Jul, 1 2008 @ 09:22 PM
link   
I did not attack you. I asked you if you do not read very well, because you are omitting large portions of the story and ignoring my previous clarification. it is an honest question, as i would assume that being accused of having difficulty reading is more likely than the thought that you just mismanage comprehension.

I call it a lie because you leave out critical parts of the story to paint the story in a light that allows you to present your arguement. It is called a "lie by omission". Now, if you have reading difficulty, i would say it is less a "lie" and more of a "misunderstanding". Let me help alleviate the misunderstanding for you:

Mr. Horn looked outside and saw his neighbors home being burglarized. He had been asked by this neighbor to watch his property.

Mr. Horn grabs his gun (for protection) and calls 911. When he gets outside, the burglars begin to approach him. He levels his gun on them and states loudly "Don't move or i will shoot you" (rough quote, as he likely used more coarse language). The men froze momentarily, and then turned to run. Mr. Horn thought they were rushing him (as they had actually entered his yard when they approached him) so he shot them. It happened in split seconds. A shotgun doesn't have the kind of range to do what you insinuate happened. When the police showed up, there were two corpses in Mr. Horn's yard.

Now, your version includes that he shot the men, and that he shot them in the back. But there is absolutely nothing regarding the specifics of what happened. You lead people to believe that he just walked up and executed two men. That is untrue. The two men were robbing a house, entered Mr. Horns property, and were shot when they made a sudden movement in the dark.

I do not level personal attacks. Read just about every post i have ever made...that is not my style. I DO keep people honest, as the truth is what "Deny Ignorance" aspires to achieve.

[edit on 1-7-2008 by bigfatfurrytexan]

[edit on 1-7-2008 by bigfatfurrytexan]



new topics

top topics



 
4
<< 1    3  4  5 >>

log in

join