Animal, your going to find that MORE states are going to pass laws like the Texas statute on property protection because the insurance companies are going to back it. If you don't want to get shot for burglury, stay out of Texas. Where I you. I'd be very carefull when you leave and reenter your house. Burglurs nowdays are shooting the homeonwners with no regard for the consequenses. Home invasions are on the rise in all states.

Zindo

I'm all for personal responsibility.

But the pendulum will swing back when some kid is killed by his father; sneeking back into his house after a nite out drinking with his friends.

Or a neighbor returning a neighbors runaway dog, mistaken as an intruder and shot dead.

or a friend kills his best friend while playing with daddy's gun.

Or a wife killing her husband and using the "bugler" defense.

or a drunk yahoo; cleaning his pistol blows off his privates and bleeds to death in minutes.


Or stoned macho highschoolers having a go at Russian roulette.

Or a just released mental patient going postal and killing a bunch of grade school kids with his Mommy's deer rifle.

or a bunch of good ole boys out huntin Javalina and drinkin Jack get into and argument over nuthin and killin each other.

How will you feel when thieves break in and steal your guns and kill a bunch of people with your guns. Thieves love gun cabinets.

There will be many more people killed unintentionally or by accidents
than criminals.

Or when a cop responding to a domestic disturbance is blown away as he gets out of his squad car.

Oh, and I'm a member of the NRA.

the pendulum swings....

I wish I was an attorney. Easy pickins....



Ps...and how about when Joe Horn and his family get ambushed and killed by the guys he killed, friends or family. These are some bad Hombres, don't kid yourselves. I'll wager Joe Horn *****bricks every time he leave the house. I'll wager Joe Horn wishes he had of listened to the 911 operator.

the pendulum swings...

and goddamn the heft and feel of cold steel makes a man feel powerful, doesn't it?













[edit on 1-7-2008 by whaaa]

[edit on 1-7-2008 by whaaa]

If you feel that way friend, then do you have a problem with me breaking into your house and taking your belongings? Pretty sure you do. If I have a weapon, which is likely, or if I'm stealing something important to you, would you try to stop me?
When it comes to robbery, you need to assume the robber is armed, and treat them as if they were. The fellow could have held up before firing, but the fellow could have been pulling a weapon.

I'd heard about this case when it first hit the news, then lost track. I am pleased with the current outcome.
We live in a world populated by the likes of Joe Horn and those individuals he shot. I am more comfortable with Mr Horn and his ethics than theirs.

Bottom line is, if they hadn't been breaking the law, they'd be alive. Forgive me if I can't muster up a few crocodile tears for 2 illegals breaking into someone's house.

The idea that we need to categorically handle these criminals with "kid gloves", comes from a type of society that I want no part of.

When you steal something that I bought with my hard earned money, you are taking also the time I spent earning said money. This is time away from my family, away from my home, and definitely not "fun-time".

Where is it listed that I have to let someone enter my home, and steal from me, and hope that the criminal justice system helps me out.

For the necessary burden or proof, I can just let my local government add cctv all over my neighborhood.

Yea, I would give up my self and property defense rights in exchange for 24 hour surveillance of all of mine and my neighbors activities.

So you believe that there is another way to deter crime than killing criminals?

Let me know, cause last I checked, the more comfortable the prisons, and more prevalent the criminal rights, the more crime goes up.

Same with murder. Ever since immediate and horrific capital punishment was removed, murder rates have skyrocketed.

Some of us here are idiots.

Firearms accidents have gone DOWN in the last 15 years. Your scenarioshave all been screamed about buy the Anti's for years and none has come to fruition. You sound more like a 'Handgun Control' plant than an NRA member. if you where a member you would already know that your statistics are wrong.

Zindo

Here is the deal.

1) If you break into someone's house, there is a good chance you will be shot.

2) If you break into someone's home in Texas, you might live through it, to be gunned down in the street by the neighbor, as you attempt to flee the scene.


Lessons to be learned.

1) Don't take stuff that isn't yours.

2) Don't mess with Texas.

Originally posted by ZindoDoone You sound more like a 'Handgun Control' plant than an NRA member. if you where a member you would already know that your statistics are wrong.

Zindo

Nope, been a member since 1975. What statistics?
I'm a responsible gun owner and I don't appreciate your insults.

[edit on 1-7-2008 by whaaa]

Well, here's my hard earned lesson and I was lucky.

Last winter, about 0100 the dogs started barking.
They're doxies and live indooors and a great early warning system.

I saw a shadow at the back door, looked out the window and thought I'd seen one of granddaughters friends.

Guy about 17-18 years old.

I went outside to see what was up and then realized he was a stranger.

I shine the light in his eyes and all the time he had his hands in his pockets.
He left and when he did I saw the about 2 year old Cadillac in the driveway.
The car was a gangbanger special and it was then that I called the cops.


Mistakes made:

I shoulda called the cops first, they're only a couple of miles away and usually have a good response time.

I was stupid not to have stuck my 44 Special in my pocket before I went outside.
Never again on that.


Imagine my surprise when the prowlers photo ended up on the front page of the local paper several months later as an "alleged" - a BS term if I ever heard one - rapist and he was noted for carrying a big knife which he used during the rape.

I was lucky not to have approached him too close.
The 3 and 4 cell Mag Lights are a reasonably good weapon, but taking a flashlight to a knife fight ain't the smartest thing in the world.

I wouldn't shoot if I could avoid the situation, but, by the same token a prowler is not going to steal from me or hurt my family.


The world is like it is because liberals are afraid to punish criminals and wrong doers....


[edit on 1-7-2008 by Desert Dawg]

Originally posted by Animal

The robbers were entering his NEIGHBORS HOME. The 911 operator told him to stay inside the police were on their way, yet he proceeded to KILL the men who were not in HIS home or threatening him in anyway.

Do you not read very well? He was asked by his neighbor to watch out for his property. In Texas, this means you keep people from doing anything, using the same force you would use for your own belongings. this kind of goes back to the days of horses and cowboys.

as well, Mr. Horn should not have to stay inside his house because of criminals. Especially in a rural area where police response can be slow.

regardless, if i tell my neighbor i will watch over his stuff, by God i will do it. It is called "honor" and "pride", something we have plenty of in Texas.

I would stand up for myself for sure, don't doubt that for one second. I am all for punishing those who do wrong as well. I am saying that the "street justice" seen in this case is insane. Burglary is not worth taking someone life PERIOD. I would be really upset if someone took all my possessions but ?I would NEVER dream of killing them over it.

This is not "street justice", it is "country justice". You obviously are not from around here. And you are not familiar with our laws. To be honest, i find it ridiculous that i cannot turn on a red light in NYC...but that is their law.

Ya and the 911 operator who told the shooter to stray inside because the police were on their way was lying…

He put himself in harms way in this instance. The burglars were not on his property. He shot them in the back, like a coward.

Another myth being perpetuated. If you want to argue, argue the facts, not your daydreams.

Mr. Horn shot them in the back because it was dark and he told them not to move. They chose to move (by turning to run), and he shot them. If they weren't dumb enough to try and call his bluff, they might be alive today.

In another instance this makes sense but in this your assertion does not apply. The shooter was not under assault. He was told to stay indoors. He went out side, saw people in his neighbor’s yard and shot them in the back.

He was told to stay inside by a 911 operator, who was not on the scene and new VERY little about what was going on. I am unsure her scripted advice really is worth following.

I will repeat: your "spin" is a lie. You are leaving out important parts of the story so that you can perpetuate your flawed logic. Your insistence on perpetuating untrue events is going to cause me to lobby to have your thread labelled a "Farce" or something, honestly.

He was safe, no one was in his home, he made a DECISION to confront and shoot these men. He chose “to make burglary a death penalty offence”.

He made a decision to confront these men, as was his obligation. THEY made the choice to get shot by refusing to listen and by breaking into homes.

On and on. First off in these instances I have replied to none of you are even looking at the fact at hand.

I believe you are not looking at any "facts" of this case, outside of those which allow you to argue your position.

Look, whether he was right or wrong, in MY state, you are likely to end up dead if you try breaking into a home. Texans carry guns in public, of course our homes are defended.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal

The robbers were entering his NEIGHBORS HOME. The 911 operator told him to stay inside the police were on their way, yet he proceeded to KILL the men who were not in HIS home or threatening him in anyway.

Do you not read very well?

Once again I will ask that people leave out insults when they respond to comments I make that hey disagree with, lets stick to the issue please.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
I would stand up for myself for sure, don't doubt that for one second. I am all for punishing those who do wrong as well. I am saying that the "street justice" seen in this case is insane. Burglary is not worth taking someone life PERIOD. I would be really upset if someone took all my possessions but ?I would NEVER dream of killing them over it.

This is not "street justice", it is "country justice". You obviously are not from around here. And you are not familiar with our laws. To be honest, i find it ridiculous that i cannot turn on a red light in NYC...but that is their law.

Yes not turning on a red light is silly, but they do it to SAVE LIVES not take them.... The comparison is rather weak IMHO.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
Ya and the 911 operator who told the shooter to stray inside because the police were on their way was lying…

He put himself in harms way in this instance. The burglars were not on his property. He shot them in the back, like a coward.

Another myth being perpetuated. If you want to argue, argue the facts, not your daydreams.

Mr. Horn shot them in the back because it was dark and he told them not to move. They chose to move (by turning to run), and he shot them. If they weren't dumb enough to try and call his bluff, they might be alive today.

You repeated basically the same thing as me, where did I stray from the facts as you assert? Personally I would appreciate sticking to the issue and avoiding personal commentary, thanks.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
In another instance this makes sense but in this your assertion does not apply. The shooter was not under assault. He was told to stay indoors. He went out side, saw people in his neighbor’s yard and shot them in the back.

He was told to stay inside by a 911 operator, who was not on the scene and new VERY little about what was going on. I am unsure her scripted advice really is worth following.

I will repeat: your "spin" is a lie. You are leaving out important parts of the story so that you can perpetuate your flawed logic. Your insistence on perpetuating untrue events is going to cause me to lobby to have your thread labelled a "Farce" or something, honestly.

One again please refrain from attacking ME, and stick with the issue at hand. What have I said that is untrue? What have I done to have my posts removed of to have some sort of post ban imposed on me? Disagreeing with your opinion is not an offense here, insulting others or sharing knowingly false information is.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
He was safe, no one was in his home, he made a DECISION to confront and shoot these men. He chose “to make burglary a death penalty offence”.

He made a decision to confront these men, as was his obligation. THEY made the choice to get shot by refusing to listen and by breaking into homes.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Animal
On and on. First off in these instances I have replied to none of you are even looking at the fact at hand.

I believe you are not looking at any "facts" of this case, outside of those which allow you to argue your position.

Look, whether he was right or wrong, in MY state, you are likely to end up dead if you try breaking into a home. Texans carry guns in public, of course our homes are defended.

I do not argue about weather or not it is LAW in your state, I argue that the LAW is a crock of bull poo. I argue that killing someone for theft is insane and the punishment does not match the crime. I am arguing that being told by 911 to stay inside and not listening, charging outside with a loaded gun, shooting people in the back who are RUNNING AWAY from you sounds more like MURDER than protection.


Edits to fix messy links...

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Animal]

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Animal]

[edit on 1-7-2008 by Animal]

I can't believe the number of people on ATS that defend criminals; from burglars to child rapists. It's sickening. I for one don't give two damns about people who feel the need to burgle upstanding citizens. To me, robbing someone of their hard earned possessions is way worse than shooting the burglar in the back.

I wish it was like that in Canada. Right now we just got to sit back and let the burglar take what he wants, or risk jail time ourselves.

I did not attack you. I asked you if you do not read very well, because you are omitting large portions of the story and ignoring my previous clarification. it is an honest question, as i would assume that being accused of having difficulty reading is more likely than the thought that you just mismanage comprehension.

I call it a lie because you leave out critical parts of the story to paint the story in a light that allows you to present your arguement. It is called a "lie by omission". Now, if you have reading difficulty, i would say it is less a "lie" and more of a "misunderstanding". Let me help alleviate the misunderstanding for you:

Mr. Horn looked outside and saw his neighbors home being burglarized. He had been asked by this neighbor to watch his property.

Mr. Horn grabs his gun (for protection) and calls 911. When he gets outside, the burglars begin to approach him. He levels his gun on them and states loudly "Don't move or i will shoot you" (rough quote, as he likely used more coarse language). The men froze momentarily, and then turned to run. Mr. Horn thought they were rushing him (as they had actually entered his yard when they approached him) so he shot them. It happened in split seconds. A shotgun doesn't have the kind of range to do what you insinuate happened. When the police showed up, there were two corpses in Mr. Horn's yard.

Now, your version includes that he shot the men, and that he shot them in the back. But there is absolutely nothing regarding the specifics of what happened. You lead people to believe that he just walked up and executed two men. That is untrue. The two men were robbing a house, entered Mr. Horns property, and were shot when they made a sudden movement in the dark.

I do not level personal attacks. Read just about every post i have ever made...that is not my style. I DO keep people honest, as the truth is what "Deny Ignorance" aspires to achieve.

[edit on 1-7-2008 by bigfatfurrytexan]

[edit on 1-7-2008 by bigfatfurrytexan]