Japanese invent car that runs on water

Originally posted by mikellmikell

Originally posted by yahn goodey
i wonder how well these fuel cells or any water powered car will work in a cold climate say like in canada or russia in winter temperatures that can be -30 fahrenheit for weeks sometimes ?

perhaps water powered/fuel cell cars are just for hot climates only?
put up on blocks for winter and drive in summer ?

And now you see why lawyers will never let them happen. People driving around dumping water on the roads in January in Chicago just won't get it.

mikell

You're joking right?!

You are thinking this will be shelved because of water being dumped on the road??? You've heard of rain/snow/hail/frost/dew i suppose?

Next to the earth being poisoned every day, those slippery roads are gonna be a huge headache eh?

Get real mate.

spikey

Why would you dump the water on the road when you can collect it and put it back in the fuel tank?

Also, all those arguments of frozen water in cold weather... I recall Stanely Meyers saying he can run his car off of snow. Also, pretty much any form of electrolysis, or water separation will involve heat that could melt the ice.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by ALLis0NE]

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke

Originally posted by ALLis0NE

The energy needed to separate hydrogen from oxygen is far less then the energy that hydrogen makes when combusted. Over-unity.

Prove it.

I could make HHO gas with a 12 volt car battery. I can burn that HHO and it could melt through almost any metal. With a 12 volt car battery alone, I could NOT melt any metal. This means the water has more power than the battery.

When I burn the HHO, it turns back into water, which can be looped back into my fuel tank. Over-unity.

reply to post by Macrotus


Mate,

I suggest you go elsewhere for your jollies.

You only seem to want to insult peoples posts and the ideas contained within.

As pointed out repeatedly to you, there are numerous pressidents for water power, or more accurately, the energy inherrent in the H2o, namely Hydrogen and Oxygen.

We have been 'splitting' or 'fracturing' water by electrolysis for decades, in order to extract the energy rich Hydrogen.

The drawback traditionally, as you would already know had you bothered to actually research some of the posts people make here, is that it has been more expensive in terms of energy (electricity) to fracture the H2o, and liberate the Hydrogen, than the extracted Hydrogen provides in terms of energy.

This and other methods of a similar ilk, work principly on new methods of achieving the same fracturing, the same liberating of the Hydrogen gas, only at a fraction of the energy needed to fracture the molecule previously.

Hence a real breakthrough in cheap, clean energy production. Not only for cars, but globally in industry, in homes etc.

The impact to the worlds economy could easilly be reduced to negligable amounts by simply charging an annual 'service fee'. Probably better to keep the existing 'enegy transmission infrastructure', and house these new h2o units on an indutrial scale inside 'power stations', and pay these a service fee for the upkeep of the utilities, and buildings, power lines, substations, and the jobs that go along with them.

A portion of this fee could be used to supliment or subsidise the oil/fossil fuels industry, thereby negating any negative economic problems associated by clean, cheap energy technology.

I've said it many times and i'll say it again, if you just want an argument, and you rubbish any ideas without doing any research yourself, all you are doing is being part of our planets' problems, and not part of the solutions to those problems.

If you are arguing because you are simply an idiot with low understanding of anything requiring even a modest amount of brain energy, please accept my apologies, as you cannot help it.

If you are not a window licker, then i suggest you grow up and do your reasearch before posting illogical replies.

spikey.

[edit on 19-6-2008 by spikey]

Originally posted by ALLis0NE

I could make HHO gas with a 12 volt car battery. I can burn that HHO and it could melt through almost any metal. With a 12 volt car battery alone, I could NOT melt any metal. This means the water has more power than the battery.

That's not proof. For start you have mixed up the concepts of power and energy. Energy is the ability to do work, while power is the rate at which work is done. Water cannot be said to have more "power" than something.

You have mearly created hydrogen using the energy from the battery (losing some to heat etc in the process) and then burnt the hydrogen. This is extremely well established science and is certainly not over-unity.

When I burn the HHO, it turns back into water, which can be looped back into my fuel tank. Over-unity.

Expect you can't can you? Which is why you aren't driving around in a water powered car, and neither is anyone else.

Originally posted by spikey
The drawback traditionally, as you would already know had you bothered to actually research some of the posts people make here, is that it has been more expensive in terms of energy (electricity) to fracture the H2o, and liberate the Hydrogen, than the extracted Hydrogen provides in terms of energy.

That is still the case I'm afraid. Hydrogen is at a higher energy state than water - you will always have to add energy.

This and other methods of a similar ilk, work principly on new methods of achieving the same fracturing, the same liberating of the Hydrogen gas, only at a fraction of the energy needed to fracture the molecule previously.

Unless the process is >100% effecient, which is clearly impossible then hydrogen is not the answer to the world's energy problems. It might be useful as an energy storage medium, but that's it.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
That's not proof. For start you have mixed up the concepts of power and energy. Energy is the ability to do work, while power is the rate at which work is done. Water cannot be said to have more "power" than something.

Can I please ask you to not post any more? You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, and you are spreading disinformation. Do you know anything about physics?? Obviously not.

I have not mixed up the concepts of "power and energy". LOL!!! They are both the same thing! Water can be said to have more "power" than something, actually, I can prove water has more power. Oh wait, I already did!

Yes, water has more power than a 12 volt battery.

I can create electricity with water alone, and I can use that electricity to make HHO, and I can burn that HHO to boil water, to create steam, to turn a steam engine. Yes, I can do this with ONLY WATER.

It's obvious you haven't seen this:

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke

When I burn the HHO, it turns back into water, which can be looped back into my fuel tank. Over-unity.

Expect you can't can you? Which is why you aren't driving around in a water powered car, and neither is anyone else.

Are you sure about that? Because you are actually posting this on a thread about Japanese people who run their cars off of water. Also, I have done extensive research with Stanley Meyers patents that were released at the end of 2007, and have made my own HHO cells.

It's quite obvious you are a fraud and have no clue what you are talking about. You should remove yourself from this thread for lack of knowledge.

I think we can say that this thread, given the quality of the posts by the side that support water as fuel compared to the inane ramblings and mule stubborness of the serial debunkers, has resulted in us firmly establishing that water is indeed a viable fuel on which a hydrogen (or HHO) economy can, and should, be built.

It saddens me that people are so ignorant or so economically biased as to try and sandbag the better future of mankind. Some people, and you know who you are, really need to grow up and see the big picture. Times are changing and you guys need to get used to being dragged into the light.

This thought just hit me like a ton of bricks. All the "really smart" people who know that it costs too much to produce hydrogen and there for we should continue using gas, think for a second. Does it cost anything to get the oil out of the ground? After it gets out of the ground, does it cost anything to refine it? How is this magical process done? If hydrogen costs the same as gas to produce, which I believe it is close if not a little bit more, wouldn't it get cheaper with mass production efforts? Forgetting all about those loony folks trying to use science to create a better tomorrow, if hydrogen could be bought for the same ammount and have 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 emmisions, wouldn't that be better than the road we are on now? And since we can never deplete our water supply, (scientificly impossible) we sould never run out. To help you make a decision, try this expiriment. Go start your car, now go to the back and take a big drag off the exhaust pipe. Now go to a hydrogen only car and do the same thing. Tell me which one tastes better. Oh, I for got, water isn't fuel.

Originally posted by ALLis0NE
I have not mixed up the concepts of "power and energy". LOL!!! They are both the same thing!

Nonsense. Defining energy vs power is a classic school level physics question - must have passed you by?

Energy
Physicists define the word energy as the amount of work a physical system is capable of performing. Energy, according to the definition of physicists, can neither be created nor consumed or destroyed.
...
Power
Electrical power is usually measured in watt (W), kilowatt (kW), megawatt (MW), etc. Power is energy transfer per unit of time.
Power may be measured at any point in time, whereas energy has to be measured during a certain period, e.g. a second, an hour, or a year

source: www.windpower.org...

Yes, water has more power than a 12 volt battery.

OK Einstein, you tell me, in exact figures, how much power water has and how much power a 12v battery has? Please state your figures in kW.

I can create electricity with water alone, and I can use that electricity to make HHO, and I can burn that HHO to boil water, to create steam, to turn a steam engine. Yes, I can do this with ONLY WATER.

So what?

Are you sure about that? Because you are actually posting this on a thread about Japanese people who run their cars off of water. .

So they claim, or it might well be a mis-translation. I don't see any water powered cars from Japan for sale. Looks like a hoax or con to me.

Perhaps you could make me one? I'll pay you $100,000 for one. Or maybe you don't need the cash?

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Nonsense. Defining energy vs power is a classic school level physics question - must have passed you by?

Actually no, nothing passed me. I am on a totally different level of knowledge then you. I know your physics, but I also know the physics that you haven't learned yet.

Did you read this part? "Power is energy transfer per unit of time."

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
OK Einstein, you tell me, in exact figures, how much power water has and how much power a 12v battery has? Please state your figures in kW.

Well how much water are we talking about? Because I am pretty sure I can count the electrons that a 12v battery can supply, and I can also count how many electrons water can supply, but I need to know how much water you are talking about. If you are talking about the ocean, then, I really don't even have to prove that the ocean has nearly an unlimited amount of electrons...

Do you understand?

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Perhaps you could make me one? I'll pay you $100,000 for one. Or maybe you don't need the cash?

Make it $200,000 and I will make you an anti-gravity vehicle that runs on water, and all you have to do is fly through clouds to refuel. How about that? Of course, I could just set you up with unlimited electronic energy from the ether...

[edit on 19-6-2008 by ALLis0NE]

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
That is still the case I'm afraid. Hydrogen is at a higher energy state than water - you will always have to add energy.

You forget one thing... oil dependency and shelling out at the pumps so the Saudi's can all drive a Mercedes and not pay one dime of income tax... thanks to us...

You CAN however make a deal with Canada and stick a couple of dams on a few rivers in the north... and build your hydrogen electrolysis plant right next to it..

You get tons of water... loads of FREE electricity one the initial cost of the dam is covered and can export electricity into the grid as well

There is one dam in Northern Quebec that zaps have of its generated power into the ground due to lack of costumers...

So why don't we do that and tell them Oil Sheiks where they can put their oil?

And don't try to tell me electricity 'generated' at a dam isn't free energy... The water is flowing downhill regardless of what we do... if we stick a waterwheel into it that sucks electrons out of the ether in the process so much the better

I mean just where did you think those electrons come from, Hmmm?

So once you build the plant and the dam... exported power will cover maintenance... Canada already offered to build THREE such dams on the same river... Quebec needs the revenue and the jobs... they already did the environmental study.... the creation of three new reservoirs in that region would not have a major negative impact, and would in fact provide more fishing grounds

But for some reason the deal fell through

And what are we talking now? More oil drilling in the arctic although we already stopped it three times to protect the Arctic Wildlife Refuge...

But now Herr Bush wants to drill again...because he says the Russians plan to tap into it from their side...

China wants to keep Tibet... because they found billions of barrels of oil and Exxon is already helping them build a pipeline...

If it wasn't for Shell Oil we wouldn't ever see Hydrogen at the pumps


You people want to see a price drop? Its very simple really...

BOYCOTT GASOLINE

Yeah yeah I know Americans will never do without their cars... BUT If you BOYCOTT EXXON and their partners and bought only Shell or other non Exxon affiliate...

Now THAT would have power... How long do you think Exxon's Shareholders will put up with that?

Why Exxon? Well for one they recorded recorded EVER quarter profits right after we went to 'war' with Iraq...

But I know Americans have become DOCILE SHEEP these days... no one will make this happen...

Why support Shell? Because THEY ARE GIVING US HYDROGEN

Stay tuned and I will show ya... because I know y'awl are to lazy to look it up

I have heard a lot of talk saying we will NEVER have Hydrogen at the pumps... and have seen many similar posts here at ATS...


The reasons given...
A) Too expensive to produce
B) To dangerous to carry in the tank
C) To dangerous for self serve stations (you do NOT want a static spark near this stuff and forget about smoking)
D) The Oil Companies won't let it happen...

I am sure there are more... but I think that is enough..

Well seeing that we are here to Deny Ignorance... let me see if I can make you all a little less 'ignorant'. And please to those saying 'it will never happen..." have you ever heard of GOOGLE?

Now I made a thread on this right after I saw the new Hydrogen pump released here in Vegas.. posted on 26-6-2006 @ 12:38 AM Got TWO responses... go figure... and now the Japanese are doing it, its front page news? HA America deserves it's OIL BARONS

Well I will try again... as Shell has been busy since...




Shell opened the first public H Station in Washington DC TWO YEARS AGO...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am going to print a letter from Duncan Macleod
Vice President Shell Hydrogen

About Shell Hydrogen
September 25, 2007

The development of hydrogen from its discovery as a chemical element to taking up a position as the most important source of energy of the future is a journey through the past and the future. A journey with ups and downs, with both loyal and lapsed fellow travellers, and in constantly changing circumstances.

Along this journey, Shell Hydrogen wishes to play a leading role and champion the realisation of a hydrogen-based economy. By actively collaborating with other market parties in creating an infrastructure for hydrogen that will enable this source of energy to become globally accessible for the everyday consumer. With this in mind, Shell has developed a clear strategy; a strategy that takes account of technical, economic and political developments, but at the same time is based on the company’s own ideas and its acquired expertise.

Who we are

Shell Hydrogen is a global business of the Shell Group with headquarters in The Hague, the Netherlands, and regional bases in Houston and Tokyo. Shell Hydrogen was set up in 1999 to pursue and develop business opportunities related to hydrogen and fuel cells.

Our goal

Our goal is to bring hydrogen into a retail setting. Shell already has a hydrogen platform of production nodes all over the world. Over 50 million tonnes are produced and consumed every year. Through existing and planned demonstration projects Shell Hydrogen is currently building up our experience in connecting these production nodes with our retail infrastructure. Bringing hydrogen out of its industrial settings into the everyday lives of people, to places where consumers can access it as a fuel for their vehicles.

Our strategy

We foresee the global hydrogen economy as a new structure in which hydrogen represents an important component of the portfolio of energy sources and fuels, and as a realistic alternative to the world's present wide-scale use of hydrocarbon fuels. The broad-based application of hydrogen offers a solution to current problems such as the dependency on finite fuels and uncertainty concerning energy supplies and air pollution Hydrogen could be a clean and abundant source of energy, to meet the world’s increasing demand. To actually be able to market hydrogen within the foreseeable future, Shell is operating along two channels. Firstly, Shell wishes to broaden its expertise, make the public more aware of the application and use of hydrogen by initiating and encouraging hydrogen-based projects. Secondly, Shell is actively supporting technological development essential for rendering hydrogen accessible to a broader market.

What we do

We work with partners to promote and support the development of the infrastructure and technical solutions that the world needs to make hydrogen a practical, safe and efficient fuel. We are actively involved in demonstration projects around the world. We are the only major energy company involved in fuel cell vehicle demonstrations in all three major hydrogen markets – Japan, North America and Europe. We are building new fuelling stations for hydrogen, or are adapting existing locations for that purpose. We are partners in two investment funds, supplying venture capital to early and latter stage companies in the hydrogen sector, to help develop the hydrogen economy.

Part of the Shell Group

Shell Hydrogen’s strength lies in being a key business of the Shell Group - an organisation that shares the hydrogen vision at its most senior levels. At the same time we are able to draw from the Group’s international experience in introducing new fuels. For more information, please visit projects.

www.thelivingmoon.com...

Okay so they are based in The Hague, the Netherlands, which means more than likely they have strong Bilderberg Club ties... but at least they are offering us an alternative.. so perhaps the lesser evil....

continued...

Benning Road Station Washington DC

This was the first station I reported on two years ago... Here is Herr Bush filling up... (only problem is he forgot the nozzle I think he seriously needs new PR people )



Now when I present this it was ALREADY OVER ONE YEAR IN OPERATION

First hydrogen pump operates in public/private fuel program
(NOVEMBER 2004)

Shell Oil's projects to reduce carbon emissions include a hydrogen refueling station in Washington, D.C. President Bush visited the station on May 25, 2005, posing with a fuel cell vehicle prototype that runs on hydrogen.

Houston Business Journal
by Monica Perin Houston Business Journal
Friday, November 19, 2004

Last week, Shell Hydrogen opened the first-ever hydrogen pump at a retail service station in Washington, D.C.

The event marked a milestone in an ongoing collaboration between Shell Oil Co., General Motors and the U.S. Department of Energy. The public/private coalition was created to demonstrate the viability of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and the refueling infrastructure that will be necessary to support them.

The retail station will service a fleet of GM minivans operating in the nation's capital, giving legislators and policymakers opportunities to ride in and drive the alternative-fuel vehicles.

www.bizjournals.com...

www.thelivingmoon.com...

Bush Touts Hydrogen, Pushes for Energy Bill


The president gets a tutorial on fueling a hydrogen-powered car by Shell's Rick Scott.
(Photo by Paul Morse courtesy White House)

Environment News Service
By J.R. Pegg
May 26, 2005

WASHINGTON, DC, May 26, 2005 (ENS) - Hydrogen is "the wave of the future," President George W. Bush said Wednesday during a visit to a hydrogen fueling station in Washington, D.C.

The clean fuel offers the United States a road away from its increasing dependence on foreign oil, said Bush, who again called on Congress to pass a comprehensive energy bill.

"Congress has been talking too long about the energy bill," Bush said. "I'm getting a little tired of waiting … for the sake of energy independence, they've got to get me a bill."

www.thelivingmoon.com...

The car you ask?

HydoGen3 from General Motors

Here is a peek under the hood...



continued....

Shell Retail Hydrogen Station Reykjavik, Iceland Opened April 2003

The first Shell-branded hydrogen station at a Shell retail site anywhere in the world, was opened in Reykjavik, Iceland on 24th April 2003.



Hydrogen fueled bus Iceland...



www.thelivingmoon.com...

Showa Shell Seikyu KK Tokyo, Japan June 2003

Showa Shell Seikyu KK opened the first liquid hydrogen refueling station in Tokyo, constructed in partnership with Iwatani Corporation and the Tokyo Metropolitan Government in June 2003



www.thelivingmoon.com...

Tokyo Hydrogen Bus...




Wake up America or get left behind at the pumps...




continued...




[edit on 19-6-2008 by zorgon]

Hydrogen Buses Amsterdam, Netherlands

The Amsterdam transport company (GVB) will be testing three fuel cell buses in Amsterdam, The Netherlands as part of the Clean Urban Transport for Europe Project (CUTE).



Buses at refueling station in Amsterdam... well it IS their home port afterall



www.thelivingmoon.com...

Hydrogen Buses Luxembourg

Commercial only filling station... Luxembourg



www.thelivingmoon.com...







First hydrogen refueling station opens in Shanghai
November 15, 2007
Shell Oil Press Release

Shanghai, 15 November, 2007: China Ministry of Science and Technology, Shanghai government, Tongji University and Shell Hydrogen today announced the opening of the first hydrogen refueling station in Shanghai for fuel cell vehicles.

The Anting Hydrogen refueling station, located at the International Automotive City in Anting, Shanghai, will dispense compressed gaseous hydrogen for a fleet of fuel cell cars and buses operating in the Shanghai region.

The Shanghai government has already helped to deliver dozens of fuel cell vehicles operating in Shanghai, and this is planned to grow exponentially by 2010, including fuel cell buses sponsored by the Global Environmental Facility (GEF) through the United Nations Development Programme.

Tongji University is responsible for the development and operation of the new hydrogen station, with Shell contributing technical advice and part of the funding. The station also features an information centre on the hydrogen economy.

www.thelivingmoon.com...

www.shell.com...


SHANGHAI???

Well at least they haven't forgotten about US


White Plains Dedication, New York
November 13, 2007
Shell Oil Press Release

City of White Plains, New York
SHELL HYDROGEN AND CITY OF WHITE PLAINS DEDICATE HYDROGEN FUELING FACILITY

Shell will provide fuel for City of White Plains and GM vehicles

Houston, Texas - Shell Hydrogen LLC and the City of White Plains, New York, today dedicated a hydrogen vehicle fueling facility located in the city's department of public works yard in downtown White Plains.

The Shell Hydrogen facility will produce hydrogen from electricity generated from renewable energy provided through the New York Power Authority. "The City of White Plains has shown real leadership in cooperating on this project with Shell. White Plains' successful track record in introducing alternate fuels for city vehicles are a great fit with Shell Hydrogen's efforts to develop solutions to transportation and energy challenges," said Phillip Baxley, President of Shell

www.thelivingmoon.com...

www.shell.com...

BMW Hydrogen 7

BMW, the German car manufacturer, wants you to know that they believe hydrogen is the fuel source of the future. In order to do this, they have created the BMW Hydrogen 7, an all hydrogen powered luxury sedan that produces zero emissions. It’s serious business, or so says BMW, which is why they have enlisted the help of comedian and well known car enthusiast Jay Leno.

Text

Honda Hydrogen Car FCX-Clarity


You can lease one on a three year lease for only 600 per month



automobiles.honda.com...

Now then All you guys out there screaming HOAX I want you to go to the tail pipe of your favorite gas guzzler and suck in a deep lung full of exhaust... It will be good for you as you are obviously hooked

The rest of you go out an BOYCOTT EXXON/IMPERIAL OIL/CHEVRON that used to be STANDARD OIL and is the bread and butter.... errrmmm caviar and champagne of the Bush Family and the Rockefellars...

And go and support SHELL

If not your all hypocrites and deserve the OIL BARONS cutting your purse strings

Originally posted by network dude If hydrogen costs the same as gas to produce, which I believe it is close if not a little bit more, wouldn't it get cheaper with mass production efforts? Forgetting all about those loony folks trying to use science to create a better tomorrow,

Its not about cost... its about taking control of our own energy needs... how smart is it for America to be shelling out extortionist prices at the pumps to support the Oil Nations, many of whom are our sworn enemy?

Rommel walked away from his Panzers because he ran out of oil.... what if OPEC choses to sell ALL their oil to China instead? Then where will we be?

Back in Toronto in 1969 the University of Toronto offere a do-it-yourself converstion kit to convert ANY gasoline car to run on Hydrogen...

All you needed was a new carburetor, a hydrogen tank, and heavy duty shocks to support the tank..

Hydrogen was and is available at any medical or welding gas supplier.

THIS IS NOT NEW TECHNOLOGY

The main issues have been safety (mostly dispensing by self serve means I am sure you all know one or two bozos who would blow themselves up while lighting up ) and DISTRIBUTION

You need an existing infrastructure... it would be too expensive to start a chain from scratch and have only Hydrogen before all cars are switched over...

So it would take a company like SHELL to add a pump to their existing network

Originally posted by zorgon
Yeah yeah I know Americans will never do without their cars... BUT If you BOYCOTT EXXON and their partners and bought only Shell or other non Exxon affiliate...

Now THAT would have power... How long do you think Exxon's Shareholders will put up with that?

A boycott of one company would do nothing. Why? Demand at the other companies would suddenly skyrocket, limiting supply. That would cause prices to go up as supplies go down. And where are they going to get all the gas to meet the increased demand? From Exxon. Shell will just buy the gas Exxon isn't selling, and they'll pay a pretty penny for it.

The only way a boycott would work is if you boycotted all gas, and actually reduced your consumption. If you just shift consumption around to different companies, or merely postpone consumption for a brief period, it would do nothing.

Originally posted by nataylor
The only way a boycott would work is if you boycotted all gas, and actually reduced your consumption.

That will never happen... most of us need the car or truck for work, and we need to eat and pay our bills so there is no way anyone will support a total boycott...

Originally posted by nataylorAnd where are they going to get all the gas to meet the increased demand? From Exxon. Shell will just buy the gas Exxon isn't selling, and they'll pay a pretty penny for it.

Ummm no Shell will not buy from Exxon I have the word of their execs

Well okay so Shell is one of our clients for conventions and I do manage to get a few ummm freebies at the end of the show... but they do not have any love for EXXON Though they may buy from others, most likely an increase in demand will force them to build more refineries

Did you know that worldwide Shell is the biggest?

But there is NO SHORTAGE OF OIL... there is a GLUT of Oil we need more refineries pure and simple

And a boycott of one company won't work? How do you know? Have we tried? At least it will send a message that we aren't SHEEP anymore...

Nothing personal nat... but if we do nothing we are doomed to pay even higher... nost likely 7 or 8 dollars by the end of the tear or sooner...

When I came to America I was listening to the truckers on the CB across the country planning to encircle the White House because of a measly (now) 6 cent per gallon increase in diesel fuel..

Anyone here remember that? I said to my family, not THAT is the country I want to call home... (Canadians were complacent about sheeling out several cents per LITRE in those days every weekend just because more people traveled on weekends so they could raise the price... you had to plan to fill up on wed to get the break)

So what happened to that America?


REMEMBER THE EXXON VALDEZ!!!!


[edit on 19-6-2008 by zorgon]