Massive New Chinese Missile Base Uncovered

Originally posted by zarzar

We all know some of the shortcomings of the Democracy, but these can't compare to living in fear, torture, forced-labor camps and the slavery. And after all you Chinese are smart people, you could come with a system better than Democracy. I am sure you could do that if you follow your traditional philosophy systems. Why not give it a try

You made a terrific great awesome point here. Yes, why not give it a try? But what I am seeing in today's China now and trying to explain for several days, is that WE ARE TESTING A TOTALLY UNPRECEDENTED UNIQUE SYSTEM which we are continuously modifying and adjusting The Chinese people already decided to give ourselves all the required time after all, so hopefully the world understand and give us also the time



[edit on 25/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by zarzar

Thanks for pointing that. The extend in which the US and the Chinese people are deprived from their rights is quite different though. You could say things are getting worse and worse in the US, but until it gets to the human rights situation where China is now, it will take a lot of time even with the current speed.

I will add that we could actually substitute China with any government with poor human rights record, but the extend in which the abuses are happening will be less or more different. The Chinese regime together with its totalitarian pals is at the very top of the list of human rights abusers.

I don't want to go too far off topic and I won't comment any further on this, but...
The human rights issue can be quite different depending on your "class" in this so called "classless society." There has been at least 87 people who died during I.C.E. detention, many of them children. How 'bout Sean Bell and his friends? Their only crime was to be black and having a bachelor's party. (When you're colored and poor, the you're less "human.")
But I agree with you. For me, I must say it's better than what I'd imagine. At least I personally have no connection to a person who is wrongly convicted and had his or her organs sold to some "westerner" who can afford them.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan

 

Very late hour here, just a quick note:

Epoch Times is sponsored by Falun Gong, a sect that is anti-China. So I would be more skeptical in what information you get from Epoch

Just umake sure that you have other more credible sources to verify Epoch

I never thought Falun Gong as "anti-China", rather China was anti-Falun Gong. What's wrong with a bunch of quietly meditating souls? Why is that a problem with the government? Enlighten me.

Do you think Epoch Times fabricates stories? Christian Science Monitor is not a bad source. Do they make up stories, too?

I found the scientist's website and he is English born working for your country as a consultant.
His site
Looks very straight forward, nothing dubious. Looks like he's been working in the field intensively and, therefore, make sense that he'd be the one to point out the cover up of the "official" claim. No?

My point was that somewhat critical function in the Chinese Academia is done by a foreigner, a British-Jew, and if the claim is true then it can collide with HAARP theory. That's all.

Originally posted by haidian
reply to post by zarzar

 

the truth is now first time china enjoys peace ,stability and prosperity in several hundred years.most people are content with the current government.agreeing that they are doing a very good job at least so far.you always claim a lot of killing and torture in china,if that is the case,many people may have experienced that,but the truth is ,in my life so far i never had,neither had my friends.and most foreigners who'd ever been to china always amazed how safe china is,they say that is the thing impress them the most,taking a stroll at night without feeling any security concerns is the fact of life in china.we have much much less prisoners comparing to the states.people live a easy,safe life here .

...

I don't see any point of talking about the US human rights record here. All of us know very well what is going on there and additionally I am not living in US, but in Europe, where the situation is still relatively good.

I was working on different human rights project throughout the years - human rights film festivals, etc, so I am extremely interested in that area. I think through our efforts we greatly helped the local people and the people in the oppressed countries. Talking about China, I had a truly bad experience with your embassy here, which totally justifies that it is still the same aggressive and arrogant system as before. They are going way too far even outside of China. I will tell the story later.

Going back to my point, as I told before, I grew up in a Communist country and I was old enough to have a clear vision of how things were at that time. Most of the population did not know about the existence of the widespread torture at that time, and only after the political system changed, we all understood about all the concentration camps and that the Communist party killed hundreds of thousands of people. These people were killed in peaceful time and were perfectly good citizens. The situation was the same in all these post-Communist countries.

Talking about body count it is interesting that the Chinese Communist Party is the leader of killed people during peaceful time - www.digitalsurvivors.com... 73,237,000+ killed people is not a small number even for China.

However when talking about torture and killings in China we have pretty big number of different sources and evidence that this is happening right now. You cannot just say "Seeing is believing" in that case, because that sounds cynical and only justifies that the situation is truly horrible.

I remember some secretly taken pictures of Christian woman in extreme pain tortured by a Chinese policeman. That really showed me how far the Chinese authorities could go. Then we saw how the Chinese plaincloth policemen were kicking and jumping on the heads of Falun Gong followers protesting on Tienanmen square and we saw the results after being "taking care" in custody. We saw how the Chinese soldiers are killing like dogs some Tibetan people when trying to cross the border. We saw how the Chinese plaincloth policemen harass human rights activists. And additionally to that there are thousands of reports of gross human rights abuses happening in China.

You cannot just say that this does not exists because you and your family and friends have not experienced it. I was giving an example some posts ago. Ask one of your friends in China to go to the center of the city with a poster stating that the Chinese government is evil. Will they torture him? Yes, they will.

Originally posted by reibian

I never thought Falun Gong as "anti-China", rather China was anti-Falun Gong. What's wrong with a bunch of quietly meditating souls? Why is that a problem with the government? Enlighten me.

Do you think Epoch Times fabricates stories? Christian Science Monitor is not a bad source. Do they make up stories, too?

I don't expect from the pro-Communist Party users to admit something wrong with the Chinese government especially on the issue of Falun Gong.

Once one Irish friend of mine was just starting to learn Falun Gong. He said: "After I did the exercises today and read some of the teachings, I expected to feel physically better after the meditation, but what amazed me was that this day I felt unusually mentally strong and my mind became very clear and peaceful. This helped me understand why the Communist government is persecuting them. How could a dictatorship tolerate so huge number of people with strong, clear and peaceful minds - the oppressors just want everyone to be mentally enslaved."

I think the Chinese government propaganda, especially at the beginning of the persecution of Falun Gong, was extremely shameful. I remember some cases where they were trying really hard to demonize the practice. That cannot work outside of China, where we could freely access the Falun Gong books, and I think this tarnished greatly the image of the Chinese state-run media. I remember that the government manipulated some recordings where the Falun Gong teacher was telling that in his view the end of the world does not exists, but they made it sound with the opposite meaning - they wanted so much Falun Gong to look like a doomsday thing. Unfortunately that worked in China, where you cannot find easily alternative sources of information.

I remember also the case where the Chinese government told that around four thousand Falun Gong followers died because their practice "forbids" taking medicine. Falun Gong denied that, saying that the practice does not forbid taking medicine in any way and all of that can be verified in the books. The followers said also that they found many of the reported people were not practicing Falun Gong. I think these four thousand people are nothing in comparison with the total number of more that 70 million followers (or just a few millions as the government claims). I guess that usually the percentage of people dying from not taking medicine is much bigger and this government lie sounds more like an advertisement of Falun Gong

There was the staged by the government self-immolation on Tienanmen square and there are more cases. Not something I intend to investigate any further currently. There is a good independent movie about different aspects of the persecution of Falun Gong, which I watched on a film festival some weeks ago. It is called "Beyond the Red Wall".

As for Epoch Times, I don't believe they will dare to fabricate stories because of two reasons: first, they really don't want their image to be tarnished in the eyes of the Western world, and second, from what I observed, the Falun Gong people try to be quite strict in following the principles in their teachings - the first one is Truthfulness and obviously not fabricating stories fits perfectly with that. Being a bit biased towards Falun Gong is acceptable; after all every media is biased towards one thing or another. They have some pretty good articles, they react quickly and I find them a good alternative news source on Chinese issues. The analogy with Christian Science Monitor is quite good.

reply to post by zarzar

the link you provided dosent seem formal and reliable,sinece you claimed all those things were hold secret,how could you get that guesstimate?based on what?as for going to city center to hold up a anti government banner.i previously reply to that post,you can go back and check that post again,we never did say china is a democracy,but said this system is good for china at least at present stage.

what i am talking about is china now is not china 30 years ago,just spend some time talking with people who had been to china recently,and you may that easily or you can go to websites to see their comments on tour in china.there are tons of them online.

you will never understand china than chinese people do,if you claim you do, that is pathetic.people here know what we really need.you dont stand there and point to things and say,hey.look ,you need this,you need that.that can only annoy people.

people in china now is busy with getting rich and living a comfortable life,that' is almost everybody's top priority now .and now it is the perfect time to do so,since the nation first time in several hundred years can enjoy peace and stability.the economy is so good and development is so fast.china now has the most internet users . cellphone users,No.3 private cars in the world,all those things just happened in just a few years.people give this government the credit for this amazing economic development ,and in most chinese people's mind than counts the most.

you still have the old col war mentality,china is not the one you believed 30 years ago,we never denied there were great tragedies happened in early communist rule in china.but come to china today,you may find communism is just a name to give the present leaders legitimacy to rule.the government adopted a unique way to manage the country and successful put the country on fast track developing the economy,and most people are content with it.

in really life i m not a person like to argue,i have many western friends here in beijing,my best friend is an american from Minnesota，they all speak very highly of this government and system.happy with the life in china.if you have chance to come to china,to beijing,i would like to show you around.you will change your opinions on china.

as for falungong, one funny thing is lihongzhi,the cult leader,when being asked for how long through practice people can reach nirvana.he replied that would need many light years.most people with basic education know that light year is a unit to measure distance,not time.

reply to post by FedtStensDyr

here is a cool web site If you dig straight down .So if you shot HAARP down it you could see where it will come out www.ubasics.com...

Originally posted by haidian
as for falungong, one funny thing is lihongzhi,the cult leader,when being asked for how long through practice people can reach nirvana.he replied that would need many light years.most people with basic education know that light year is a unit to measure distance,not time.

Can you show me where the Falun Gong teacher said that exactly or this is just another piece of the Communist party propaganda? I am pretty sure that he did not said that, since he is quite an intelligent person. Even if that is the case, looking at the broader perspective of their teachings, this is really nothing. Even less that could justify some kind of persecution, slander and lies towards them. And looking again at the broader perspective, the Communist party's hate propaganda aimed at Falun Gong is really disgusting.

Originally posted by reibian

I never thought Falun Gong as "anti-China", rather China was anti-Falun Gong. What's wrong with a bunch of quietly meditating souls? Why is that a problem with the government? Enlighten me.

Admittedly, there is always certain political and power play involved, we have to be able to see through this. And ironically it was the CCP herself that wanted more people to practice "qigong" & "meditation", this is also why Falun Gong received more and more supporters especially in the beginning.

My opinion, it's a sect, a sect that is dangerous to the followers themselves and the stability of a society.

I was in Holland, when the Falun Gong was labelled as one and they were enlisted as one of the "terrorist" groups. Honestly, back then, I was too young to even care too much about it. But then the "harassing to be anti-China/CCP" by these quite extreme viewed "peaceful meditating souls" started in Dutch Chinatowns, and when I personally saw a high-educated "friend" becoming obsessed of this "religion", then I started to get interested and tried to see what is maybe more behind the so-called "innocents, being suppressed".

I will get more supporting references later on, when I have more time.

Do you think Epoch Times fabricates stories? Christian Science Monitor is not a bad source. Do they make up stories, too?

Yes.

At least one time two months ago they have fabricated the story that China has ordered PLA soldiers to wear Tibetan clothes. The picture and story was posted as the ultimate evidence that China created the Lahsa riot by themselves. However, this story and picture were debunked EVEN by pro-Tibetan website as false. The sad thing is that even in ATS, you will see numerous people still posting that picture as "ulimate truth" that evil China created the riot.

I found the scientist's website and he is English born working for your country as a consultant.
His site
Looks very straight forward, nothing dubious. Looks like he's been working in the field intensively and, therefore, make sense that he'd be the one to point out the cover up of the "official" claim. No?

My point was that somewhat critical function in the Chinese Academia is done by a foreigner, a British-Jew, and if the claim is true then it can collide with HAARP theory. That's all.

Point taken, and I will for sure look into this case more deeply. I am visitting ATS mainly for the Alien & UFO/Conspiracy sections one year ago, I only became active posting about China related stuff when I saw too much ignorance. So yeah, I am following the conspiracy theories one by one too, have my opinion on it, which is also continuously changing. So new information to shed lights or connect dots would always be welcome. Again, I am not ruling anything out.

But don't be surprised if there are more foreigners involved in policy making or researches of all kinds at governmental institutions and levels.

Originally posted by zarzar

I don't expect from the pro-Communist Party users to admit something wrong with the Chinese government especially on the issue of Falun Gong.

Zarzar, and you claim that you have read more of my posts? Then especially this statement will be very stunning for me to see, which is implying that I am a pro-CCP cuddler believing that our Beloved Party, Adorable Government and Magnificent Leaders are all perfect and flawless.

Once one Irish friend of mine was just starting to learn Falun Gong. He said: "After I did the exercises today and read some of the teachings, I expected to feel physically better after the meditation, but what amazed me was that this day I felt unusually mentally strong and my mind became very clear and peaceful. This helped me understand why the Communist government is persecuting them. How could a dictatorship tolerate so huge number of people with strong, clear and peaceful minds - the oppressors just want everyone to be mentally enslaved."

Your Irish friend is confused with the "QiGong" teachings and what Falun Gong really is, QiGong teachings and practices are in the Chinese culture for literally thousands of years. The Falun Gong is simply a sect marketing this "qigong" in another nicer and more appealing packaging to people who are not aware of it. As of today, you will still see people practicing "qigong", "taichi" and so on.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan

Originally posted by zarzar

I don't expect from the pro-Communist Party users to admit something wrong with the Chinese government especially on the issue of Falun Gong.

Zarzar, and you claim that you have read more of my posts? Then especially this statement will be very stunning for me to see, which is implying that I am a pro-CCP cuddler believing that our Beloved Party, Adorable Government and Magnificent Leaders are all perfect and flawless.

Once one Irish friend of mine was just starting to learn Falun Gong. He said: "After I did the exercises today and read some of the teachings, I expected to feel physically better after the meditation, but what amazed me was that this day I felt unusually mentally strong and my mind became very clear and peaceful. This helped me understand why the Communist government is persecuting them. How could a dictatorship tolerate so huge number of people with strong, clear and peaceful minds - the oppressors just want everyone to be mentally enslaved."

Your Irish friend is confused with the "QiGong" teachings and what Falun Gong really is, QiGong teachings and practices are in the Chinese culture for literally thousands of years. The Falun Gong is simply a sect marketing this "qigong" in another nicer and more appealing packaging to people who are not aware of it. As of today, you will still see people practicing "qigong", "taichi" and so on.

My Irish friend is a highly educated person and he can't get confused so easily with what Falun Gong really is. Moreover the Falun Gong followers outside of China are usually highly educated people and respected in their social environment - the once I knew are certainly of this kind. Actually I don't think either Falun Gong is simply a bunch of exercises. I perceive it as a system for self-improving - to be a better and nice person, to elevate your character, and so on. How could that be labeled dangerous to the followers and dangerous to the so called "stability of society"? At the least they are around for so many years and they have not been involved in something illegal or dangerous outside of China. Moreover I have looked at the Falun Gong books and you can't fool me so easily. I think you are simply repeating your government propaganda. Of course we could find negative comments about Falun Gong, but that is perfectly normal and if you pick whatever subject in this world you will find both negative and positive comments. That does not justify calling these people with names, nor justifies persecuting them in the horrible way your government is doing that. That is truly a shame for the Chinese Communist party.

falungong is publicly denounced in china,and you said most followers outside china are very educated,that must be a lie,cause everybody knows most followers are old people.if you really appreciate their cause why not just join them,i m in beijing and i talk with chinese people everyday ,i never met any young people believe falungong make any sense.that is insulting people's intelligence.practice and you will create falun?i hope you know what it means,that's so absurd.refusing medical care when you are sick.that amounts to murder.

you ideas are helpless,anything that chinese government supports is evil,anything that chinese government opposes is good.tell you the truth,as a chinese i know the overwhelming majority of the people here supporting this government.wether you like it or not desnt matter at all,china is rising fast and on the way to reach its greatness,that trend is unstoppable.

we have the fastest growing economy in the world,people's living standard is being improved every single year.people enjoy a peaceful and very safe society...,all of those give us great confidence that we never had before.sense of national pride is overflowing nowaday.this period of great chinese restoration must be down in china's 5000 years history and become a very important chapter.

reply to post by zarzar

you always claim you have many chinese friends,there are quite a few chinese people here ,i can see their posts.does any of them support you even a little bit?if the anwser is no,you should realize by now how little you know china and its people.you vicious attack can only make chinese people more united,what you are doing is to shoot yourself in the foot.

reply to post by zarzar


One piece of humble advice: Tachi, Shaolin, and many other teachings, practices and so on would be much more interesting if one only want to "self-improve" with a Chinese way

Further more not much to discuss, because I do have a feeling you will discard it as propaganda anyhow.

reply to post by haidian


Not neccesary a "lie", but Yuppies in the West tend to be rebellious and be fashionable. So if a sect is being forbidden in the "evil China", then this sect must be somehing good and benevolent for human beings. It's the "underdog"-culture of the West and even in our culture, they and we tend to have a weak heart for the underdog, and will act less rational. Look at Stephen Chow's movies, he was always the "underdog" and we loved those roles and laughed till our tears are coming out

Originally posted by haidian
falungong is publicly denounced in china,and you said most followers outside china are very educated,that must be a lie,cause everybody knows most followers are old people.if you really appreciate their cause why not just join them,i m in beijing and i talk with chinese people everyday ,i never met any young people believe falungong make any sense.that is insulting people's intelligence.practice and you will create falun?i hope you know what it means,that's so absurd.refusing medical care when you are sick.that amounts to murder.

you ideas are helpless,anything that chinese government supports is evil,anything that chinese government opposes is good.tell you the truth,as a chinese i know the overwhelming majority of the people here supporting this government.wether you like it or not desnt matter at all,china is rising fast and on the way to reach its greatness,that trend is unstoppable.

we have the fastest growing economy in the world,people's living standard is being improved every single year.people enjoy a peaceful and very safe society...,all of those give us great confidence that we never had before.sense of national pride is overflowing nowaday.this period of great chinese restoration must be down in china's 5000 years history and become a very important chapter.

I am talking about the Falun Gong followers from the white race. The ones here are not old people and the majority of them are from the white race. As far as I know most of them have University degree. As I said I am living in Europe.

Normally people are getting seriously ill once in five years. Sometimes even more often. Not to talk about what happens when you don't go to dentist. If Falun Gong followers refused medical care when they are sick, in that case a huge percentage of them would be dead by now. And I have not heard about any Falun Gong person that died from not taking medicine outside of China.

As for what a person believes in, you would find that I believe in even stranger things. And you would find that many people here believe in even stranger things than me. There is also something called freedom of believe and something called freedom of thought. You could believe in anything you like. Of course everyone have to be law abiding citizen. If the Falun Gong teachings were evil as your "great" government states, we could easily find that out by reading the books, and moreover the followers would violate the law or impose some kind of danger in the countries they are living. We have never heard something like that happening here in the Western world.

I not against the prosperity of China in recent years, but that has nothing to do with the suppression of different groups on the basis of political, religious, etc. difference. What I am talking about is that the Chinese government tortures and kills innocent people - you can't deny that. This has to stop immediately and unconditionally.

Moreover the Communist party ruined the moral standard of your nation. Nowadays Chinese have really twisted and immoral way of thinking and behavior, and that is even more so for the younger ones. You can't compare to the Western people in this respect and that is pretty obvious. Unfortunately things were different some hundreds of years ago in this regard.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
reply to post by zarzar

 

One piece of humble advice: Tachi, Shaolin, and many other teachings, practices and so on would be much more interesting if one only want to "self-improve" with a Chinese way

Further more not much to discuss, because I do have a feeling you will discard it as propaganda anyhow.

If Falun Gong is an "evil cult" like the Communist party is trying to convince us for so many years, why not give me a few examples of Falun Gong followers breaking the law in their respective countries or imposing a danger to themselves or other people (but without citing Communist party media sources and only foreign countries)?

You can't, you know that?

Additionally to Falun Gong your government also persecutes Tibetan Buddhists, Christians and Muslims. The government banned other popular qigong practices with millions of followers as well. Nothing new under the sun.

Originally posted by zarzar

Additionally to Falun Gong your government also persecutes Tibetan Buddhists, Christians and Muslims. The government banned other popular qigong practices with millions of followers as well. Nothing new under the sun.

And I thought I was the one being brainwashed No, but seriously, I think I discussed enough with you about this topic, it would not matter too much anymore, because new information provided will be waived off as propaganda anyhow. You can read my post in that other thread about SS.

reply to post by IchiNiSan


If Falun Gong is an "evil cult" like the Communist party is trying to convince us for so many years, why not give me a few examples of Falun Gong followers breaking the law in their respective countries or imposing a danger to themselves or other people (but without citing Communist party media sources and only foreign countries)?