Originally posted by zarzar

We all know some of the shortcomings of the Democracy, but these can't compare to living in fear, torture, forced-labor camps and the slavery. And after all you Chinese are smart people, you could come with a system better than Democracy. I am sure you could do that if you follow your traditional philosophy systems. Why not give it a try

You made a terrific great awesome point here. Yes, why not give it a try? But what I am seeing in today's China now and trying to explain for several days, is that WE ARE TESTING A TOTALLY UNPRECEDENTED UNIQUE SYSTEM which we are continuously modifying and adjusting The Chinese people already decided to give ourselves all the required time after all, so hopefully the world understand and give us also the time



[edit on 25/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by zarzar

Thanks for pointing that. The extend in which the US and the Chinese people are deprived from their rights is quite different though. You could say things are getting worse and worse in the US, but until it gets to the human rights situation where China is now, it will take a lot of time even with the current speed.

I will add that we could actually substitute China with any government with poor human rights record, but the extend in which the abuses are happening will be less or more different. The Chinese regime together with its totalitarian pals is at the very top of the list of human rights abusers.

I don't want to go too far off topic and I won't comment any further on this, but...
The human rights issue can be quite different depending on your "class" in this so called "classless society." There has been at least 87 people who died during I.C.E. detention, many of them children. How 'bout Sean Bell and his friends? Their only crime was to be black and having a bachelor's party. (When you're colored and poor, the you're less "human.")
But I agree with you. For me, I must say it's better than what I'd imagine. At least I personally have no connection to a person who is wrongly convicted and had his or her organs sold to some "westerner" who can afford them.

Originally posted by reibian

I never thought Falun Gong as "anti-China", rather China was anti-Falun Gong. What's wrong with a bunch of quietly meditating souls? Why is that a problem with the government? Enlighten me.

Do you think Epoch Times fabricates stories? Christian Science Monitor is not a bad source. Do they make up stories, too?

I don't expect from the pro-Communist Party users to admit something wrong with the Chinese government especially on the issue of Falun Gong.

Once one Irish friend of mine was just starting to learn Falun Gong. He said: "After I did the exercises today and read some of the teachings, I expected to feel physically better after the meditation, but what amazed me was that this day I felt unusually mentally strong and my mind became very clear and peaceful. This helped me understand why the Communist government is persecuting them. How could a dictatorship tolerate so huge number of people with strong, clear and peaceful minds - the oppressors just want everyone to be mentally enslaved."

I think the Chinese government propaganda, especially at the beginning of the persecution of Falun Gong, was extremely shameful. I remember some cases where they were trying really hard to demonize the practice. That cannot work outside of China, where we could freely access the Falun Gong books, and I think this tarnished greatly the image of the Chinese state-run media. I remember that the government manipulated some recordings where the Falun Gong teacher was telling that in his view the end of the world does not exists, but they made it sound with the opposite meaning - they wanted so much Falun Gong to look like a doomsday thing. Unfortunately that worked in China, where you cannot find easily alternative sources of information.

I remember also the case where the Chinese government told that around four thousand Falun Gong followers died because their practice "forbids" taking medicine. Falun Gong denied that, saying that the practice does not forbid taking medicine in any way and all of that can be verified in the books. The followers said also that they found many of the reported people were not practicing Falun Gong. I think these four thousand people are nothing in comparison with the total number of more that 70 million followers (or just a few millions as the government claims). I guess that usually the percentage of people dying from not taking medicine is much bigger and this government lie sounds more like an advertisement of Falun Gong

There was the staged by the government self-immolation on Tienanmen square and there are more cases. Not something I intend to investigate any further currently. There is a good independent movie about different aspects of the persecution of Falun Gong, which I watched on a film festival some weeks ago. It is called "Beyond the Red Wall".

As for Epoch Times, I don't believe they will dare to fabricate stories because of two reasons: first, they really don't want their image to be tarnished in the eyes of the Western world, and second, from what I observed, the Falun Gong people try to be quite strict in following the principles in their teachings - the first one is Truthfulness and obviously not fabricating stories fits perfectly with that. Being a bit biased towards Falun Gong is acceptable; after all every media is biased towards one thing or another. They have some pretty good articles, they react quickly and I find them a good alternative news source on Chinese issues. The analogy with Christian Science Monitor is quite good.

as for falungong, one funny thing is lihongzhi,the cult leader,when being asked for how long through practice people can reach nirvana.he replied that would need many light years.most people with basic education know that light year is a unit to measure distance,not time.

Originally posted by haidian
as for falungong, one funny thing is lihongzhi,the cult leader,when being asked for how long through practice people can reach nirvana.he replied that would need many light years.most people with basic education know that light year is a unit to measure distance,not time.

Can you show me where the Falun Gong teacher said that exactly or this is just another piece of the Communist party propaganda? I am pretty sure that he did not said that, since he is quite an intelligent person. Even if that is the case, looking at the broader perspective of their teachings, this is really nothing. Even less that could justify some kind of persecution, slander and lies towards them. And looking again at the broader perspective, the Communist party's hate propaganda aimed at Falun Gong is really disgusting.

Originally posted by zarzar

I don't expect from the pro-Communist Party users to admit something wrong with the Chinese government especially on the issue of Falun Gong.

Zarzar, and you claim that you have read more of my posts? Then especially this statement will be very stunning for me to see, which is implying that I am a pro-CCP cuddler believing that our Beloved Party, Adorable Government and Magnificent Leaders are all perfect and flawless.

Once one Irish friend of mine was just starting to learn Falun Gong. He said: "After I did the exercises today and read some of the teachings, I expected to feel physically better after the meditation, but what amazed me was that this day I felt unusually mentally strong and my mind became very clear and peaceful. This helped me understand why the Communist government is persecuting them. How could a dictatorship tolerate so huge number of people with strong, clear and peaceful minds - the oppressors just want everyone to be mentally enslaved."

Your Irish friend is confused with the "QiGong" teachings and what Falun Gong really is, QiGong teachings and practices are in the Chinese culture for literally thousands of years. The Falun Gong is simply a sect marketing this "qigong" in another nicer and more appealing packaging to people who are not aware of it. As of today, you will still see people practicing "qigong", "taichi" and so on.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan

Originally posted by zarzar

I don't expect from the pro-Communist Party users to admit something wrong with the Chinese government especially on the issue of Falun Gong.

Zarzar, and you claim that you have read more of my posts? Then especially this statement will be very stunning for me to see, which is implying that I am a pro-CCP cuddler believing that our Beloved Party, Adorable Government and Magnificent Leaders are all perfect and flawless.

Once one Irish friend of mine was just starting to learn Falun Gong. He said: "After I did the exercises today and read some of the teachings, I expected to feel physically better after the meditation, but what amazed me was that this day I felt unusually mentally strong and my mind became very clear and peaceful. This helped me understand why the Communist government is persecuting them. How could a dictatorship tolerate so huge number of people with strong, clear and peaceful minds - the oppressors just want everyone to be mentally enslaved."

Your Irish friend is confused with the "QiGong" teachings and what Falun Gong really is, QiGong teachings and practices are in the Chinese culture for literally thousands of years. The Falun Gong is simply a sect marketing this "qigong" in another nicer and more appealing packaging to people who are not aware of it. As of today, you will still see people practicing "qigong", "taichi" and so on.

My Irish friend is a highly educated person and he can't get confused so easily with what Falun Gong really is. Moreover the Falun Gong followers outside of China are usually highly educated people and respected in their social environment - the once I knew are certainly of this kind. Actually I don't think either Falun Gong is simply a bunch of exercises. I perceive it as a system for self-improving - to be a better and nice person, to elevate your character, and so on. How could that be labeled dangerous to the followers and dangerous to the so called "stability of society"? At the least they are around for so many years and they have not been involved in something illegal or dangerous outside of China. Moreover I have looked at the Falun Gong books and you can't fool me so easily. I think you are simply repeating your government propaganda. Of course we could find negative comments about Falun Gong, but that is perfectly normal and if you pick whatever subject in this world you will find both negative and positive comments. That does not justify calling these people with names, nor justifies persecuting them in the horrible way your government is doing that. That is truly a shame for the Chinese Communist party.

falungong is publicly denounced in china,and you said most followers outside china are very educated,that must be a lie,cause everybody knows most followers are old people.if you really appreciate their cause why not just join them,i m in beijing and i talk with chinese people everyday ,i never met any young people believe falungong make any sense.that is insulting people's intelligence.practice and you will create falun?i hope you know what it means,that's so absurd.refusing medical care when you are sick.that amounts to murder.

you ideas are helpless,anything that chinese government supports is evil,anything that chinese government opposes is good.tell you the truth,as a chinese i know the overwhelming majority of the people here supporting this government.wether you like it or not desnt matter at all,china is rising fast and on the way to reach its greatness,that trend is unstoppable.

we have the fastest growing economy in the world,people's living standard is being improved every single year.people enjoy a peaceful and very safe society...,all of those give us great confidence that we never had before.sense of national pride is overflowing nowaday.this period of great chinese restoration must be down in china's 5000 years history and become a very important chapter.

Originally posted by haidian
falungong is publicly denounced in china,and you said most followers outside china are very educated,that must be a lie,cause everybody knows most followers are old people.if you really appreciate their cause why not just join them,i m in beijing and i talk with chinese people everyday ,i never met any young people believe falungong make any sense.that is insulting people's intelligence.practice and you will create falun?i hope you know what it means,that's so absurd.refusing medical care when you are sick.that amounts to murder.

you ideas are helpless,anything that chinese government supports is evil,anything that chinese government opposes is good.tell you the truth,as a chinese i know the overwhelming majority of the people here supporting this government.wether you like it or not desnt matter at all,china is rising fast and on the way to reach its greatness,that trend is unstoppable.

we have the fastest growing economy in the world,people's living standard is being improved every single year.people enjoy a peaceful and very safe society...,all of those give us great confidence that we never had before.sense of national pride is overflowing nowaday.this period of great chinese restoration must be down in china's 5000 years history and become a very important chapter.

I am talking about the Falun Gong followers from the white race. The ones here are not old people and the majority of them are from the white race. As far as I know most of them have University degree. As I said I am living in Europe.

Normally people are getting seriously ill once in five years. Sometimes even more often. Not to talk about what happens when you don't go to dentist. If Falun Gong followers refused medical care when they are sick, in that case a huge percentage of them would be dead by now. And I have not heard about any Falun Gong person that died from not taking medicine outside of China.

As for what a person believes in, you would find that I believe in even stranger things. And you would find that many people here believe in even stranger things than me. There is also something called freedom of believe and something called freedom of thought. You could believe in anything you like. Of course everyone have to be law abiding citizen. If the Falun Gong teachings were evil as your "great" government states, we could easily find that out by reading the books, and moreover the followers would violate the law or impose some kind of danger in the countries they are living. We have never heard something like that happening here in the Western world.

I not against the prosperity of China in recent years, but that has nothing to do with the suppression of different groups on the basis of political, religious, etc. difference. What I am talking about is that the Chinese government tortures and kills innocent people - you can't deny that. This has to stop immediately and unconditionally.

Moreover the Communist party ruined the moral standard of your nation. Nowadays Chinese have really twisted and immoral way of thinking and behavior, and that is even more so for the younger ones. You can't compare to the Western people in this respect and that is pretty obvious. Unfortunately things were different some hundreds of years ago in this regard.

Originally posted by zarzar

Additionally to Falun Gong your government also persecutes Tibetan Buddhists, Christians and Muslims. The government banned other popular qigong practices with millions of followers as well. Nothing new under the sun.

And I thought I was the one being brainwashed No, but seriously, I think I discussed enough with you about this topic, it would not matter too much anymore, because new information provided will be waived off as propaganda anyhow. You can read my post in that other thread about SS.