Massive New Chinese Missile Base Uncovered, page 5

reply to post by IchiNiSan

reply to post by haidian

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China also has a constitution and has signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. As a member of the international community the Chinese government should respect and obey these.

There is a huge evidence of widespread torture and killings by the Chinese communist government. That is in blatant contradiction with the ratified covenants and agreements and with the Chinese constitution. You could see that almost every article in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is trampled.

IchiNiSan and haidian, you cannot speak from the name of all Chinese people, because there are millions of them with a different view when it comes to what the government is really doing. We hear those voices and we are really worried.

A good example of what I am talking about: "Voices of Dissent"

Having said that, I would state that the Chinese government should immediately and unconditionally stops oppressing the groups of people it is viciously persecuting even at this very moment.

reply to post by zarzar

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I think in my reply to Haidan I have acknowledged that even though he and me share the same opinion, but there are still many millions Chinese not sharing the same idea. However, I do have a feeling the general consensus is what we both have said, this is based on my observations and experiences in China. And also as stated before, this is also that the foreign countries are starting to observe and experience. And bare in mind that millions is in proportion not the majority in a 1.4billion populace country.

As for the point of the "human rights" "violations". As said, for example there are basic issues that we do share and can agree on. Hmmm, let me give a more extreme right opinion, to tingle some brains. However, would you agree on that for example the organs of a convicted death penalty criminal are being sold? Well I am one of those who will vote for yes if I am allowed to have a say in it, WITH the conditions that the criminal was convicted in an open and transparant system ruled by the law AND that the selling of these organs will help people in need, save lifes of good people and not merely another tool to enrich some corrupted oficial. I believe I have shared enough opinion about what we do need to tackle on, corruption, introduction rule by law etc.

Is this contradicting with my buddhistic belief? At least not with my way of living I do believe. Maybe tomorrow I will form a different opinion and a different version of the truth. But today I will do what I believe is the right thing to do. Eventually you can say I am more a realist and try to balance the bad karma with more good karma. Yes, I am acknowledging that taking someone's life who comitted a bad deed is bad karma, but equally I do believe by having this death penalty system in place it is eventually creating more good karma for the Chinese society and the majority of China is benefitting from a stable, orderly society.

And by the way, not to waive off or dismiss the "voices of dissidents", but I always am skeptical. Skeptical for anything, even it is only a statement made by Hu Jintao, Donald Tsang or Ma Ying-Jeou. This make me also as skeptical for any anti-China "evidence". Too often I have seen so-called "ultimate evidence to show the evilness of China", but more often I do see how skewed and biased certain reports are.

And by having presented those articles before, I tried to let you know that there might b more behind certain claims. One article that comes in mind when talking about this: From the “Tiananmen Massacre” to the "Lhasa Protests”

I began to see the wisdom in my parents’ warning. True, in any political confrontation, the opposing sides would be tempted to use lies to win justice, and naïve participants would be caught in between. To blindly believe in either side would be dangerous.
....
It is not too late for the media to report on Tibet issues with a critical eye, which will ultimately benefit the Tibetans, the Han Chinese, the Olympics and the world.

I could not have said it better, and share this author's opinion. After all, I was like him back in '89....



[edit on 23/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

reply to post by IchiNiSan

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123, thanks for reply!
I guess you're right that it is a Taiwanese site looking at the characters. They are not simplified, but I still can't read them.

As for the seismologist, what I stated was that he is a grand son of a secretary and that secretary worked for Sun Yat-sen. Also, the secretary was an English born Jew as well as the grand son who was also born n England and a Jew. His name is

陳一文 (UTF-8)

Do you think you can dig a picture of him?

Thanks.

reply to post by zarzar

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nobody here can represent every individual of a nation,but my ideas can certainly represent the majority of the chinese people's thinking.and i want to know how well you know china and its people ,how long had you lived in china,hopefully you could read chinese and you can go any chinese bbs to find the overwhelming majority of chinese people's opinions,it is so easy to find it out.

reply to post by IchiNiSan

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I found it! Stupid me! The Japanese source is a part of multi-lingual website, called Epoc Times. It had English version as well as Traditional Chinese version.

Here it is!

It even has picture of him. He can be English Jew or Chinese, I guess... Anyway, it strongly suggests that Chinese officials had known what was coming. That does not exclude the possibility of the use of HAARP since the "mechanism" of earthquake generation is not out in open. (I think it is a black op, myself.)

Can you view it?

reply to post by jetxnet

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Yeah, it is actually part of the Communist mainland's "Strategic Moderization Objective" to get Democratic Taiwan back by force before the end of 2008.

It will be a surprise attack, when least expect. Mao's Art of War concepts.

It is antithetical to the concept of a surprise attack to announce it. Mao did not write the Art of War.

reply to post by reibian

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Very late hour here, just a quick note:

Epoch Times is sponsored by Falun Gong, a sect that is anti-China. So I would be more skeptical in what information you get from Epoch Just make sure that you have other more credible sources to verify Epoch

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
reply to post by reibian

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Very late hour here, just a quick note:

Epoch Times is sponsored by Falun Gong, a sect that is anti-China. So I would be more skeptical in what information you get from Epoch Just make sure that you have other more credible sources to verify Epoch

Stating that Falun Gong is anti-China sounds like a pure hatred instilled by the Chinese Communist Party. I would like to hear what arguments would you provide to justify such a claim without the Communist party propaganda sources. Sorry to say that, but this is the kind of twisted mentality used by the Communist party to attack whatever group of people don't fall under their control, be they Falun Gong, Tibetan people, democracy activists, Christians, etc, etc.

I would say that failing to justify such serious claim, or addmiting that such statements are groundless, will expose you as a person with bad and ulterior motives.

Originally posted by haidian
reply to post by zarzar

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nobody here can represent every individual of a nation,but my ideas can certainly represent the majority of the chinese people's thinking.and i want to know how well you know china and its people ,how long had you lived in china,hopefully you could read chinese and you can go any chinese bbs to find the overwhelming majority of chinese people's opinions,it is so easy to find it out.

Yeah, you are right that a lot of people in China think the same way you do, but that is still not enough to justify in any way so huge human rights abuses. Otherwise we are truly behaving like morality lacking animals. We should be tolerant to those who are different from us and always treat them with goodness. Your past culture and history has proven that this is possible. Gradually your nation have to return to its roots. Unfortunately one could easily observe that under the despotic rule of Communism that just can't happen.

I do not want to disclose how much time I have been in China, but I have many good friends at the both ends - those with the kind of thinking you have and those with the opposite one. It is very hard to talk about human rights with the first type - they debate irrationally or just get frustrated or angry. You and IchiNiSan are some of the few with that kind of thinking that you could talk in kinda sensible way, although I still think that your way of thinking is a bit irrational which is due to living so much time under the rule of Communism. That is not an offense, but I understand this very well, since I myself was living under Communism when I was young, and it took me a lot of time to develop more civilized and rational manner of thinking.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
reply to post by zarzar

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And by the way, not to waive off or dismiss the "voices of dissidents", but I always am skeptical. Skeptical for anything, even it is only a statement made by Hu Jintao, Donald Tsang or Ma Ying-Jeou. This make me also as skeptical for any anti-China "evidence". Too often I have seen so-called "ultimate evidence to show the evilness of China", but more often I do see how skewed and biased certain reports are.

[edit on 23/5/08 by IchiNiSan]

Well, I would agree that media coverage on this topic is usually biased towards one of the sides, but this is how media is on every topic. Yeah, we are humans after all. There is a line there though - it is always a moral one. Someone could exaggerate and overstate something, which is not a big deal, but also could blatantly lie to achieve his goals. And when lying is mixed with torture and killing like in the case of every dictatorship, that is evil and that is something we have to stand up against.

reply to post by zarzar

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This is my personal experience. One of the many examples. You walk down the main street of MongKok in Hong Kong on Sunday, and you can be guaranteed to encounter some Falun Gong members trying to "enlight" the public how evil is with their "ultimate evidence". Or just pick up an official Falun Gong sponsored weekly/monthly news paper in the local Chinatown, ask a Chinese friend what the articles are about. These will tell you that instilling hate is not only done by only one party.

reply to post by zarzar

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I mostly agree, but "standing up against" something can be done in many different ways. In Europe the Europeans have a saying that all roads lead to Rome. However, if it comes down to certain problems, then I believe certain roads will not lead to Rome at all, and it might only backfire and push you further than ever from your final destination.

reply to post by zarzar

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if you have many chinese friends you should know which side the mojorty of chinese people are on,and it is not difficult to figure it out,just go to any chinese websites and check it out.i lived in the states for some years and i m not easy to be brainwashed,actually from my several years life in the states i found we chinese people are more informed than americans on international issues and what is going on around the world.and people here eager to learn issues around the world.world news coverage is a big part of china's news report,not like america,only focus on domestic news.and people in the states also simply dont really care about anything outside the us.

the truth is now first time china enjoys peace ,stability and prosperity in several hundred years.most people are content with the current government.agreeing that they are doing a very good job at least so far.you always claim a lot of killing and torture in china,if that is the case,many people may have experienced that,but the truth is ,in my life so far i never had,neither had my friends.and most foreigners who'd ever been to china always amazed how safe china is,they say that is the thing impress them the most,taking a stroll at night without feeling any security concerns is the fact of life in china.we have much much less prisoners comparing to the states.people live a easy,safe life here .

so talking about killing,that should be american concerns.school shooting,eve n random shooting by a father and his son.road rage led to gun fight.unabomb...the list is endless.how many people are killed by guns every year in the us?speaking of tortue.there are many footage show how american soldier treat those pows and when i was in the states.police brutality was a big everyday topic,i forgot those poor immigrants names.they were treated worse than a dog.

each country has its own problems,a lot of things need to be done to correct them,but assuming a moral high ground and arrogantly scolding others is not the right way to have problems solved,dont turned a blind eye to your own problems,accusing others while the situation back home is a worse senario.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by haidian]

[edit on 25-5-2008 by haidian]

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
reply to post by zarzar

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I mostly agree, but "standing up against" something can be done in many different ways. In Europe the Europeans have a saying that all roads lead to Rome. However, if it comes down to certain problems, then I believe certain roads will not lead to Rome at all, and it might only backfire and push you further than ever from your final destination.

I agree here. By standing up against, I do mean using legal and moral means to deal with the hard situation. If you just fight back in a similar way to the dictators you are no different by them, and the outcome could be even worse.

I know that one of the major concern of the Chinese today is what will happen, if the Communist party is no more. In the Eastern European countries we have some examples of the good outcome of reforming the political system. Maybe just Russia is a bit backwards, but the Russian society was heavily deformed by the long-term Communist rule and let's not forget that the ruling oligarchy is formed by ex-KGB officials. In some other places like Bulgaria we could see in power people from the ex-Communist party, but the difference is huge comparing to the days of Communism.

We all know some of the shortcomings of the Democracy, but these can't compare to living in fear, torture, forced-labor camps and the slavery. And after all you Chinese are smart people, you could come with a system better than Democracy. I am sure you could do that if you follow your traditional philosophy systems. Why not give it a try

reply to post by zarzar

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but these can't compare to living in fear, torture, forced-labor camps and the slavery.

you dont know what you are talking about ,now i really doubt have you ever lived in china before.people living in china have less fear than people in the states.every foreigner i talked with in china agreed on this point.

in china people never live in constant fear of being attacked or shot.school kids dont have to worry lunatics may come in and start spraying.

we have much less people are being locked up than those in the states.isnt being confined in small space a kinda torture?talking about slavery,that's a very important part of american history.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by haidian]

reply to post by zarzar

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see the commenets:

I have lived in China for almost ten years now, some things you read and hear about are very far fetched, but for Americans and Brits China is a very safe place to visit and live.I walk down the streets at 11 - 12 at night with no fears

In 2 years the only crime I saw where people fighting in the streets after a car accident or 2 men for the same woman. Otherwise it was a fellow French friend creating the ruckus. China is safe, at least safer than most of the western countries.

US Has the Most Prisoners in the World
by James Vicini


WASHINGTON - Tough sentencing laws, record numbers of drug offenders and high crime rates have contributed to the United States having the largest prison population and the highest rate of incarceration in the world, according to criminal justice experts.


Tough sentencing laws, record numbers of drug offenders and high crime rates have contributed to the United States having the largest prison population and the highest rate of incarceration in the world, according to criminal justice experts. REUTERS/Shannon Stapleton
A U.S. Justice Department report released on November 30 showed that a record 7 million people -- or one in every 32 American adults -- were behind bars, on probation or on parole at the end of last year. Of the total, 2.2 million were in prison or jail.

---------------------------------
and see this,Torture In America's Brutal Prisons
mathaba.net...

they herded these many people into jails and still cant make the country safe,very confusing.



[edit on 25-5-2008 by haidian]

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