Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

 

Which assumptions of MasonicLight's post are false? That Weishaupt joined Masonry to recruit for the Illuminati or that it was a failure?

"In large part this proved to be a failure. " For one.

It's a false statement.

Failure? The Lodge he joined in 1777, 'Zur Behutsamkeit,' eventually was under complete control of the Illuminati, as was the other large Lodge in Munich, 'Theodor zum guten Rat.' The latter Royal York Lodge was so much under the control of the Illuminati that their insignia was even tampered with: the owl of Minerva was placed squarely on the old seal of the Lodge, amongst the already familiar masonic symbols.

Masonic Munich was a complete tool of the Order, in every respect. That's what alarmed the Bavarian Elector the most.

These things alone have nothing about them that says "failure."

[edit on 25-5-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
However, other Illuminati members (Von Knigge, Goethe, etc.) were already Masons before the Illuminati even existed, and remained Masons long after the Illuminati ended, having always held profound respect for the Craft.

Indeed, Goethe's last words were "More Light!"

Okay, I see what you're getting at. Yes. Knigge and Goethe, J. J. C. Bode, and Herder, and Reinhold and Hufeland - all Illuminati - all highly respectful of Masonry. All reformers - the reason why they joined the Illuminati in the first place.

But ...

The Areopagites of the Illuminati, those who controlled the direction of the Order (Weishaupt and Zwack the most prominent), whose letters were confiscated by the Bavarian Elector; they are the one's who are recorded as laughing at Masonry, holding the organization in contempt, duping them, and encouraging the initiates to steal from the Lodges.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
The Areopagites of the Illuminati, those who controlled the direction of the Order (Weishaupt and Zwack the most prominent), whose letters were confiscated by the Bavarian Elector; they are the one's who are recorded as laughing at Masonry, holding the organization in contempt, duping them, and encouraging the initiates to steal from the Lodges.

So, if Weishaupt was the founder was it his intention that the Illuminati villify Freemasonry in this way or was it borne out of resentment at some sense of competition.

I learnt a new word today too, always a pleasure in itself, but if Weishaupt was the founder how could he be described as an Aeropagite? Am I missing a subtlety here?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
The Areopagites of the Illuminati, those who controlled the direction of the Order (Weishaupt and Zwack the most prominent), whose letters were confiscated by the Bavarian Elector; they are the one's who are recorded as laughing at Masonry, holding the organization in contempt, duping them, and encouraging the initiates to steal from the Lodges.

So, if Weishaupt was the founder was it his intention that the Illuminati villify Freemasonry in this way or was it borne out of resentment at some sense of competition.

I learnt a new word today too, always a pleasure in itself, but if Weishaupt was the founder how could he be described as an Aeropagite? Am I missing a subtlety here?

Question one: both. But in general he wasn't impressed with Freemasonry as whole, and especially its mumbo-jumbo nomenclature. Freemasonry, to Weishaupt, was always the butt of the joke. But he had even more contempt for the Rosicrucians and their mystical, alchemical credulousness. The Illuminati and the Rosicrucians were mortal enemies and were constantly battling. The latter (along with ex-Jesuits) won the war.

Question two: Weishaupt was the founder. His self-created title as ruler and dictator was the "General" - in homage to the Jesuits. Management of the Order was done through a council of 12 disciples, called the Areopagus. He was part of it, yet above it.

Here, take a gander:

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Question one: both. But in general he wasn't impressed with Freemasonry as whole, and especially its mumbo-jumbo nomenclature. Freemasonry, to Weishaupt, was always the butt of the joke. But he had even more contempt for the Rosicrucians and their mystical, alchemical credulousness. The Illuminati and the Rosicrucians were mortal enemies and were constantly battling. The latter (along with ex-Jesuits) won the war.

Just wishing to clarify, by ex-Jesuits do you mean, those who had left the order (through their own free will) or those who were made 'ex' by a banishment of the order (by state or vatican)?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Question two: Weishaupt was the founder. His self-created title as ruler and dictator was the "General" - in homage to the Jesuits. Management of the Order was done through a council of 12 disciples, called the Areopagus. He was part of it, yet above it.

Here, take a gander:

Highly hierarchal isn't it? Quite different to the more democratic/meritocratic elitism of the freemasons. As General, would it not have been entirely up to Weishaupt who succeeded him (if indeed anyone did), an 'apostical succession' perhaps? Is there any evidence that Weishaupt made any effort to pass the baton?

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


By ex-Jesuits I mean those who were without an Order after the Papal decree , in 1773, that the Society of Jesus be dissolved.

Weishaupt went into hiding in 1785, at the court of Illuminatus Ernst II, Duke von Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg. He lived out the remainder of his life under this family's protection.

J. J. C. Bode assumed the leadership, and continued to recruit for the Order until his death in December, 1793. After this, the Illuminati ceased to be anything resembling its initial form. After Bode's death, the mantle was passed on to the philosopher Karl Leonhard Reinhold. The latter totally dropped the ball, and managed to "declaw" the Order, until it resembled nothing of its former glory.

As far as any identifiable organization, the trail goes cold at this point.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

By ex-Jesuits I mean those who were without an Order after the Papal decree , in 1773, that the Society of Jesus be dissolved.

Very interesting, thank you for clarifying that.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Weishaupt went into hiding in 1785, at the court of Illuminatus Ernst II, Duke von Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg. He lived out the remainder of his life under this family's protection.

J. J. C. Bode assumed the leadership, and continued to recruit for the Order until his death in December, 1793. After this, the Illuminati ceased to be anything resembling its initial form. After Bode's death, the mantle was passed on to the philosopher Karl Leonhard Reinhold. The latter totally dropped the ball, and managed to "declaw" the Order, until it resembled nothing of its former glory.

As far as any identifiable organization, the trail goes cold at this point.

If JJC Bode 'assumed' leadership, can I presume that Weishaupt did not pass the mantel to him, rather Bode was 'elected' or 'selected' by means of popularity or some other device? And that this took place after Weishaupt was 'exiled'? Is there complete certainty that Weishaupt DID NOT resurrect his version of the Illuminati in even more elite circles and perhaps pass the Generalship to someone within the Saxe-Gotha-Althenburg enclave?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

If JJC Bode 'assumed' leadership, can I presume that Weishaupt did not pass the mantel to him, rather Bode was 'elected' or 'selected' by means of popularity or some other device? And that this took place after Weishaupt was 'exiled'? Is there complete certainty that Weishaupt DID NOT resurrect his version of the Illuminati in even more elite circles and perhaps pass the Generalship to someone within the Saxe-Gotha-Althenburg enclave?

Bode was basically the second-in-command in 1785 anyway, and Bode's sensibilities - vis-à-vis the centrality of reason and rationalism as the only means to oppose obscurantism and mysticism - were in complete agreement with Weishaupt's. But it is not entirely clear if Weishaupt had blessed the arrangement, and gave him as much power as he was to subsequently wield.

As far as Weishaupt colluding in some way at the court of Saxe-Gotha, all there is is a lack of evidence. We only know that he managed to ostensibly keep quiet and not cause a stir.

One thing is certain though, the Saxe-Gotha family are the sole heirs of the final secrets of both Bode and Weishaupt. When Bode died in 1793, his private papers concerning his Illuminati activities were given to Duke Ernst II. They were duly suppressed and shipped off to Sweden. From there they passed into history and into various hands, the Nazis and the Russians among them, until the remainder of them are finally accessible to scholars.

But Ernst also inherited Weishaupt's secrets. His wife and brother too, were quite intimate friends with Weishaupt. They probably had some sort of unique initiate circle which centered around the Saxe-Gotha royal family - the direct ancestors of the British royal family (Queen Victoria married a descendant of Ernst II). Weishaupt spent 45 years! at that court, he had to have been up to something more substantial than polemics against Kantian philosophy.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
One thing is certain though, the Saxe-Gotha family are the sole heirs of the final secrets of both Bode and Weishaupt. When Bode died in 1793, his private papers concerning his Illuminati activities were given to Duke Ernst II. They were duly suppressed and shipped off to Sweden. From there they passed into history and into various hands, the Nazis and the Russians among them, until the remainder of them are finally accessible to scholars.

Can you elaborate on any of this at all, any names?? I would be particularly interested in how they fell into the hands of the Nazis. One would suspect that such things would be guarded and protected, it could have been no accident if they were 'captured'. Were the documents and papers pursued, if so doesn't this imply 'insider' knowledge?

I am as interested in your learned opinion as much as in documented fact.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
But Ernst also inherited Weishaupt's secrets. His wife and brother too, were quite intimate friends with Weishaupt. They probably had some sort of unique initiate circle which centered around the Saxe-Gotha royal family - the direct ancestors of the British royal family (Queen Victoria married a descendant of Ernst II). Weishaupt spent 45 years! at that court, he had to have been up to something more substantial than polemics against Kantian philosophy.

As the relations of Edward the VII demonstrate Queen Victoria's line was pretty far reaching.

Edward, mainly through his mother and his father-in-law, was related to nearly every other European monarch and came to be known as the "uncle of Europe".[2] The German Emperor Wilhelm II, Tsar Nicholas II of Russia, Grand Duke Ernest Louis of Hesse and Duke Charles Edward of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha were Edward's nephews; Queen Victoria Eugenia of Spain, Crown Princess Margaret of Sweden, Crown Princess Marie of Romania, Crown Princess Sophia of Greece and Empress Alexandra Feodorovna of Russia were his nieces; King Haakon VII of Norway was both his nephew by marriage and his son-in-law; King George I of Greece and King Frederick VIII of Denmark were his brothers-in-law; and King Albert I of Belgium, King Charles I and King Manuel II of Portugal, Tsar Ferdinand of Bulgaria, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands, and Prince Ernst August, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, were his cousins. Edward doted on his grandchildren, and indulged them, to the consternation of their governesses.[57] However, there was one relation whom Edward did not like and his difficult relationship with his nephew, Wilhelm II, exacerbated the tensions between Germany and Britain.[58]

en.wikipedia.org...

Both the current Queen of Engand and her consort Prince Philip are direct descendents of Queen Victoria. She attempted to control Eurasia through progeny. She obviously did not succeed, entirely, but whose to say this plan has not passed through to other hands since then. Who is to say she originated the plan. It is noteworthy that certain european titles though obselete are still retained, if in name only. If only?

What I wonder is, what exactly, the Illuminati considered themselves to be illuminated in? Were they enlightened or informed?

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


About the Illuminati papers of Bode; it's called the Schwedenkiste (Swedish crate/box). The most complete account of it (in print or otherwise) can be read here:

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

[...]

The history of the ‘Schwedenkiste’ is quite an adventurous one for archival material. The leading Illuminate Bode of Weimar died in December 1793. His estate included the most important part of the correspondence of the Order of the Illuminati of Gotha and Weimar. These papers became the property of the other leading Illuminate Herzog Ernst v. Gotha, where they were kept safely. After his death in 1804 his own estate together with Bode’s documents was handed over to the archive of the Grand National Lodge of Sweden, because Herzog Ernst was convinced that his heritage was not safe from publication in any of the German lodges. Under the supervision of the Swedish king Karl XIII. though, it was guaranteed that no information would ever reach the public. Some years later, in 1880, Herzog Ernst II. of Saxony Coburg Gotha (great-grandchild of the Illuminate Herzog of Saxony Coburg Gotha and Altenburg) asked for the documents to be returned, and three years later, in 1883, the stock became property of the lodge “Ernst zum Kompaß” in Gotha. Following the order of the Herzog, the material was put in order in 20 volumes. Later, in 1909, Reverend Carl Lepp added quite useful registers and lists of documents; the material was then named Schwedenkiste. Also in the freemason archive in Gotha the files were strictly kept under lock and key since the Herzog ordered the lodge not to allow any publication whatsoever. This obligation was solely taken seriously in the 1920’s and 1930’s, the time of the idea of total conspiracy. Until before World War I, a number of researchers, mainly freemasons, were allowed to work with the content of the Schwedenkiste. Among them were the restorer of the Order of the Illuminati, Leopold Engel, and the French author of the early, exhaustive work on the Illuminati, Rene Le Forrestier (who was not a freemason). (..) On March 20th, 1936, the documents were confiscated within the framework of the national socialist persecution of the freemasons. (...) In 1945 they were then transported to the Soviet Union.

well this thread certainly took an unexpected and very appreciated turn for the better...

reply to post by scientist


Happy to oblige!

I could talk about the Bavarian Illuminati 24-7- 52-365.

They are the most fascinating secret society that has ever existed, and the most mythologized, with the exception of the Templars and Freemasonry.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

About the Illuminati papers of Bode; it's called the Schwedenkiste (Swedish crate/box).

I find the article that you posted somewhat vague, for example the reference to 'various castles in Silesia'. The Russians it seems have since 2002 returned 'most' of the masonic material that they acquired from the Nazis. I am not sure what was omitted or why...do you? Stalin wasn't a big fan of archiving, so I doubt a list would have been made at the time, therefore it cannot be known whether some items were liberated earlier.

This purports to be the RSHA list of all the items plundered from lodges in Germany and the occupied territories, it lists a number of 18th century documents, though nothing more specific...

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

Why would the Nazis protect these documents unless they meant something to them? Superficially, the main reason of course for taking them was to enable them to compile a list of members so they could track down every single freemason. The SS were nothing if not thorough, but surely once this was done they had no need to send it all off to Silesia to be protected from air raids. If this material was such a danger to Germandom, wouldn't it be better destroyed, it wasn't and that must mean someone ordered that it should not be.

I also think that the Bavarian connection of Himmler and that he was god son of Prince Heinrich of Hesse, may be indicative that Himmler would have realised the significance of the Schwedenkiste, if it or some of its contents were to fall into his hands. Unlike Hitler, Himmler did have a strong interest in the esoteric, perhaps a misguided one, but still enough to know gold-dust when he saw it. Perhaps it was his job to reunite the contents????

When you examine the execution of the persecution by the Nazis, or rather the SS, against Freemasonry you notice that there is a pattern, it is not simply systemised as the Jewish persecution was - could they have been looking for something? If the objective was to 'destroy' the influence of Zionism (their terminology not mine) why didn't they destroy all the material that they plundered?

I have an interesting quote from Reinhard Heydrich (not handy mind) that goes on about why the Freemasons were targeted, it is something about the 'holy of holies' behind the curtain at the back of each lodge and how they rule the world etc. In general it is not unlike arguments aired on these boards, what is more interesting though is that Heydrich's much adored father himself was a freemason...but in Germany of course there were different types of freemasons.

I do not think that the documents would have much significance to the Russians - would they? If they had then I cannot see them retaining them...some, as the article says may turn up on the antiquarian market but I wonder what remained tucked away in bank vaults, safe from the Nazis or now returned to those that they belong to???

What I would most like to know though is if there were twenty volumes in the chest, and book X (ten I presume) was found in the archives, how many of the other 19 have since been found? Have the registers compiled by Lepp been recovered so that it is known what is missing?

All the best
KT

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

But in general he wasn't impressed with Freemasonry as whole, and especially its mumbo-jumbo nomenclature. Freemasonry, to Weishaupt, was always the butt of the joke.

If that was true, why did Weishaupt plagiarize the Craft degrees, making them part of his own Illuminati structure? The first three degrees of Masonry became the (if memory serves) 5th, 6th, and 7th degrees of the Illuminati under Weishaupt's leadership.

Also, I have never read anything by Weishaupt in which he derided Freemasonry. Do you have a link to those documents?

Finally, I've never seen any evidence that Illuminati controlled any Masonic Lodges at all. In fact, I've read over and over that the reason that Weishaupt included the Masonic degrees in his own system was because the Illuminati was unable to gain any control of the legitimate Masonic bodies. Do you have evidence otherwise?

reply to post by Masonic Light


"If that was true, why did Weishaupt plagiarize the Craft degrees, making them part of his own Illuminati structure?"

Because he made up an Order from scratch and Masonry was one of the only games in town; basically.

"The first three degrees of Masonry became the (if memory serves) 5th, 6th, and 7th degrees of the Illuminati under Weishaupt's leadership."

Sort of. There were three classes eventually and, yes, in the second class they were required to take the first three masonic degrees.

All kinds of things Masonic became Illuministic. They were, after all, parasitic.

"Also, I have never read anything by Weishaupt in which he derided Freemasonry. Do you have a link to those documents?"

Some letters in the Original Writings; no links. Will post soon. First time ever.

A little more accessible, I see here in the notes I had accrued for the writing of my book (under the title "Duping the Masons") I have recorded both Barruel's and Robison's citations of some of the relevant passages in the Original Writings: Augustin Barruel, Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism [1798], Real-View-Books Classics Reprint, 2002, pp. 466, 490-1; John Robison, Proofs of a Conspiracy, Kessinger Publishing, 2003, p. 102. No matter what the above author's "politics" were, they never, ever, lied about a passage from the primary documents - that would be intellectual suicide.

Nesta Webster records Weishaupt's disdain for Freemasonry as well (Secret Societies & Subversive Movements, A & B Publishers Group, 1998, pp. 209-12); and so does Mournier. And, yes, I am aware of the (anti-semitic) reputation of Webster; however, again, despite her own "politics," she also did not misquote the Original Writings; in fact, through my own comparison, she translated them more faithfully than either Barruel, Robison, or Le Forestier.

Also, Weishaupt and the discourses for the Grades themselves tauted Freemasonry as the sole repository for the ancient mysteries, gnosticism and the "true christianity" as he put it. Contradictory, at first glance. But Weishaupt's private feelings were much different from what he indoctrinated his initiates with.

"Finally, I've never seen any evidence that Illuminati controlled any Masonic Lodges at all. In fact, I've read over and over that the reason that Weishaupt included the Masonic degrees in his own system was because the Illuminati was unable to gain any control of the legitimate Masonic bodies. Do you have evidence otherwise?"

All kinds of evidence. My book for one. But René Le Forestier, Les Illuminés de Bavière et la Franc-Maçonnerie Allemande [Paris: 1914], Archè reprint, 2001, has massive amounts of information on Lodge-control and -inflitration as well. For a wide range of statistics on the matter, see Professor Hermann Schüttler, Die Mitglieder des Illuminatenordens 1776-1787/93 (Munich: ars una 1991); truly indispensable, and amazing; close to 2000 confirmed members analyzed.

One example of one Lodge takeover (Weishaupt's), is more accessibly confirmed for the layman, in Vernon Stauffer, New England and the Bavarian Illuminati [1918], The Invisible College Press, 2005, p. 144.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


I'd mentioned a few of those texts, but forgotten a few others (and wasn't aware of some) in the thread Starting a Collection of Books (on Secret Societies).

Any additions you'd like to make to that thread would be welcomed.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Thanks for the heads up. Yes, I could indeed add substantially to that thread.

I'll pop by when time permits.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


What is the estimated publish date for your book? I would very much like to peruse its contents as this topic interests me greatly.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

 

What is the estimated publish date for your book? I would very much like to peruse its contents as this topic interests me greatly.

It is still on scheduled for its August 2008 release. It is slated for production (editing, graphics, index, etc.) in a week or so. Trine Day is pretty busy these days, what with the success of a few of their authors of late. You can pre-order it right now, in pretty much every bookstore in North America. They may be an independent publisher but their distribution contract is major league.

If you like anal-retentive detective work, academic (and primary source) citations in the thousands, and a no-BS approach to scholarship (yes, I have no qualms about qualifying it as such), then you'll love it!

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
If you like anal-retentive detective work, academic (and primary source) citations in the thousands, and a no-BS approach to scholarship (yes, I have no qualms about qualifying it as such), then you'll love it!

This, for the most part, is exactly how I like my history delivered.