Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?

Originally posted by 12.21.12
Aren't their many parrellels in the 1st initiation that would imply selling your soul, or subjecting it to vulnerability to uphold the masonic secrets?

No.

Do you not learn in you persuit of becoming a 33rd degree mason alternate teachings than the Bible or Torah or what have you?

Don't know what you mean by alternate teachings. If you mean like algebra teaches alternate teachings than English lit., then yes.

When does Luciferianism come into play?

It doesn't.

Do you all study the work of Aleister Crowley??

No.

Are you guys very familiar with Thelema and other teachings??

Any individual is free to study that, but it's not something that has anything to do with Masonry.

reply to post by JoshNorton

Originally posted by 12.21.12
Aren't their many parrellels in the 1st initiation that would imply selling your soul, or subjecting it to vulnerability to uphold the masonic secrets?

No.

Could you please ellaborate any further on that, or tell us more about the sole purpose of 1st degree initiation? Other than becoming a mason and swearing to uphold masonic secrets.

Isn't it called being "born again" isn't that the theme of the 1st degree initiation?

reply to post by 12.21.12


not not really in Southern California we are under Southern Jursidiction of cottish Rite and we are not in the bible belt, SocAl is clled the land of your own religion we have so many different religions here, but to answer your question, the answer is no.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

Originally posted by 12.21.12
Aren't their many parrellels in the 1st initiation that would imply selling your soul, or subjecting it to vulnerability to uphold the masonic secrets?

No.

Could you please ellaborate any further on that, or tell us more about the sole purpose of 1st degree initiation? Other than becoming a mason and swearing to uphold masonic secrets.

Isn't it called being "born again" isn't that the theme of the 1st degree initiation?

No, there are no symbolic deaths or rebirths in the 1st degree initiation. I don't know where you're getting that there are, but it simply isn't true. (And as has often been mentioned, the rituals are out there for anyone to find via Google if you doubt me...)

reply to post by JoshNorton


Well cause I read about the first degree initiation and it said that during anytime if you are uncomfortable you can stop at any time, however I also heard that it takes a person with a very strong will, to actually stop, during an initiation.

So as for somebody who might be interested in Freemasonry, count me in. However I would never join or take the 1st degree initiation rights because I am flat out convinced that masonry is evil.

You can't prove me wrong either, because in doing so you would confess masonic secrets. The only way I can find out is to get initiated. Then I would try to convince myself that I did the right thing, whether I believed it or not.

Freemasonry only survives because the veil it works under, if it were a public matter, it would be the equivelent in todays society as satanism wether it is or not, there are way to many things about freemasonry that are not the teachings of god, but quite the opposite.

It's like the story of Adam and Eve. You ate the apple, I didn't.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
So as for somebody who might be interested in Freemasonry, count me in. However I would never join or take the 1st degree initiation rights because I am flat out convinced that masonry is evil.

I think its rather broad of you to paint the entire fraternity as evil. What facts or evidence do you have for this claim?

Originally posted by 12.21.12
You can't prove me wrong either, because in doing so you would confess masonic secrets. The only way I can find out is to get initiated. Then I would try to convince myself that I did the right thing, whether I believed it or not.

Actually I think its quite easy to prove masonry is not evil, although if you are looking for scapegoats I know it would be difficult to convince you. Essentially what will happen is that you'll "move the goal posts" of what defines "evil" until it matches some description that some mason has done somewhere (even though one mason doesn't represent the fraternity, this is the easiest way to paint large groups of people as evil - hasty generalization). But, I'll give it a go anyways - what is it that defines "evil" for you - and how does that description fit masonry?

Originally posted by 12.21.12
Freemasonry only survives because the veil it works under, if it were a public matter, it would be the equivelent in todays society as satanism wether it is or not, there are way to many things about freemasonry that are not the teachings of god, but quite the opposite.

This presumes that there is some sort of veil. But there is not. You want to know about masonry? Its on google, its in your library. The minutes of your local lodge for countless years are most likely archived at your local university, and you can view them. There is no veil. Masonry is a public institution, and its financial records and meeting records are public when the lodge is tax exempt.

I do not get this continual comparison to satanism. I know satanism is something that the media ran with in the 1990s to stir up sensationalism, and its become synonymous with "devil worshiping child eaters" or some other slanderous terms, but in reality masonry has nothing in common with the dogma of actual satanism (nor does it participate in the slanderous things for which the term "satanism" is thrown around and uses a synonym for). Again and again I see these accusations that somehow masonry doesn't fit with someones conception of religion or God - but no one ever explains what they mean by this.

The reason why masonry still operates is because it is a fraternal organization, and our society has many of them. To college fraternities and sororities to the boy scouts, many types of people meet for the purposes of friendship, morality, and brotherly (or sisterly) love. Do you also find fault with all these organizations? They all have "secret" rituals - even the boy scouts has a branch with their own secret ritual. Where is the outrage over that?

Originally posted by 12.21.12
It's like the story of Adam and Eve. You ate the apple, I didn't.

So you are saying all masons are fallen from the grace of God? I find that rather insulting. What evidence do you have for that sort of claim?

I am not condemning freemasonry or generalizing it or comparing it to satanism. All I am saying is that as far as I can tell, from what I have learned and the nature of this orginization to me; is evil.

I am just saying that I am not convinced that the practice of Freemasonry itself is all good. A lot of it doesn't jive well with me.

In society, if freemasonry made itself public, it would be condemned and compared to witchcraft or satanism. Not my opinion, just reality.

No hard evidence, no sources, no references.

This whole thread is kind of silly, trying to expose an orginization shrouded in secrecy.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
I am not condemning freemasonry or generalizing it or comparing it to satanism. All I am saying is that as far as I can tell, from what I have learned and the nature of this orginization to me; is evil.

OK then - what is evil about it?

Originally posted by 12.21.12
In society, if freemasonry made itself public, it would be condemned and compared to witchcraft or satanism. Not my opinion, just reality.

No, not reality at all - just your opinion. It may be what you want to believe and hope society would do, but I would argue reality is that freemasonry is VERY public. If your going to sustain this type of argument, your going to need to explain exactly how masonry related to witchcraft or satanism.

Originally posted by 12.21.12
No hard evidence, no sources, no references.

This whole thread is kind of silly, trying to expose an orginization shrouded in secrecy.

It seems to me that your just slandering the organization, but at least you admit that you don't have any evidence, sources, or references. As for being "shrounded in secrecy" - if that was true, why exactly do masons identify themselves? Why do we plaster our logos everywhere? Why is it you can read about our ritual on line, in your library, etc.? If we're trying to be shrouded in secrecy, we are failing miserably.

You want to see secret? Look at the fraternity threads here - we have college fraternity "brothers" coming on and threatening people who reveal their secrets, and using lawyers to stop their ritual from being published on ATS. Where is the outrage over that? Why isn't everyone who is so concerned over freemasonry in that thread expressing outrage?

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


No I am aware that Freemasons do very good things for the community and son on. Many of the masons or suspected masons I have known have been very good people. Actually, both my grandfathers were masons.

I believe though that in the upper ranks of freemasonry are some corrupt individuals, and at the bottom of freemasonry are some looosely worded statements that are appealing to the ear, but not so nice under the microsope. So yeah, I don't have any hard evidence that masons are all conspirators, nor do I believe that.

I do believe that our president is doing a very fine job at destroying our government, they sure did their homework on that one. Those folks in the early 1900's never saw that federal Reserve Scam coming, neither did I becasue it was already here when I was born.

But man oh man, the thought that went into it is astonishing. The mere fact that somebody could derail the US constitution and work displace people all over the world with numerolgy is just enough to make my head spin.

So know I don't think all masons are evil. I think that there are hidden meanings in freemasonry that are.

reply to post by 12.21.12


I might be misunderstanding you but are you likening or somehow relating the Federal Reserve, The Bush Presidency and Numerology to Masonry?

I find it odd that you think Masonry is and evil orginization without ever being a part of the Insitutution. You mentioned that both your grandfathers were Masons. Did you know either of them? If so did they seem 'evil' to you? If it is possible you might want to ask their spouses about how they felt regarding their husband's Masonic affiliations.

It might also behoove you to visit your local lodge and speak with some of the Bretheren, you may find them to be thoroughly enjoyable people. I think you have been listening to too many negative sterotypes concerning Masonry, explore for yourself and make your own determination.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

your response to blood oaths...


Why not? They have to do with culture instead of religious beliefs. Our current culture would find them unsettling. But the culture of medieval England considered them normal. All Christian knights took such oaths in the middle ages, and Jews also have a long history of it. Consider Jepthah, in the biblical book of Judges, who offered his daughter up as human sacrifice to Jehovah in order to fulfill an aoth.

Yikes!!!

Well, I think the human sacrifice and oath to God is a different best than taking a blood oath to protect your fraternity and brothers above all, even breaking the law. is this correct? You see, the whole thing is problematic because you guys aren't allowed to talk about your all of your blood oaths and so the only info out there is from ex masons, which could be lies or the truth. I did read somewhere that you must protect the fraternity and your brothers no matter what, with the only exceptions being murder or treason I believe. Is any of this true? I just don't know what to believe is all and I like to hear all sides of the story and form an opinion from there.

They were probably introduced into Masonry during times of persecution. At that point, to be known as a Mason meant torture and execution, so utmost secrecy was stressed.

An alternative theory is that Freemasonry derives from the Knights Templar. Therefore, the inclusion of a military oath in the ceremonies of a craft guild was supposed to be "hint" toward the fraternity's true origins.

I hear you on this. No problems. Of course, these are just theories as well, so there's nothing really solid to say any of the above is the truth or falsehood or something in between. Sorry it has taken me a little while to respond. I don't always have the time. Also, I see this thread is getting ignorant also. Not to bash someone questioning masons, but the guy going by whatever 12.21.12 or whatever is saying all sorts of dumb stuff and then says he has no proof of any of it. I honestly feel that somewhere deep down there is something sinister going on with the masons, but I'm not about to say a bunch of nonsense and accusations because I have no proof at all. The only thing I can keep coming back to is the secrecy. You all say that all the info is available online so there are no real secrets, but as I asked before, are these official mason documents or just rumors that may or may not be true? Could you provide any type of links to the ceremony rituals or texts? I know google is my friend and all, but if you want me to put all the stuff out there that google has found for me, I would mainly have a bunch of bad things to say about you guys. I don't need unsubstantiated rumors. I did do some searching and found mainly bad things said about the masons. Not to say they wer true or false, but the overwhelming stuff out there is from ex-masons who claim stuff that the current masons say is untrue. The other stuff written by guys like 12.21.12 I don't read too much into it because it's almost like they take one thing, like say a blood oath and turn it into some fiction novel and go off on tangents left and right that are most likely false. Thanks again for all the responses from masons and non-masons alike.


JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
I did read somewhere that you must protect the fraternity and your brothers no matter what, with the only exceptions being murder or treason I believe. Is any of this true? I just don't know what to believe is all and I like to hear all sides of the story and form an opinion from there.

I think the wording of the oath depends on the state (in the US) or jurisdiction, but for NC the wording is very carefully laid out. Basically, the thing you are referring to is the oath that a mason will protect the secrets of another master mason. However, the wording is very particular that the obligation is true only if the secrets are told to me and received by me as such, AND I find the brother worthy. I, and every mason I know, would never find any brother worthy if he breaks any law - because such conduct is unmasonic. Its a bit circular, but the oath is stated that way in NC for a reason - basically it means I will keep secrets from a brother I find worthy, but I will find any immoral or illegal conduct unworthy because it would be unmasonic. What other secrets could there be? Nothing other than the completely benign type of "secrets" you might tell a good friend.

In NC, you can still take the oath quite literally and your still not under the obligation to cover up someone else's crimes or immoral activity.

Regarding "masonic documents" - again, at least for NC, the Grand Lodge have *several* books that go into fantastic description about the ritual for which anyone may read. It includes the charges for each degree, a description of it, even has little pictures. Anyone can purchase it from the grand lodge too. It's an official masonic document that goes into a fair amount of detail about the ritual. No, you will not find a verbatim copy of the ritual sold by the grand lodge except a book that is in cipher form (which is easy to figure out, you could buy it and figure it out easily if you wanted to). Nor will you find it for any fraternity, the elks, or the Knights of Columbus. This is not because its heinous, but because - again - ritual is kept secret as a demonstration of fidelity. In this day and age people forget that it is an important trait that people be able to keep a secret - few people can. It doesn't mean the secret is evil, but simply that there is innate value in being able to keep something confidential.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness

I think the wording of the oath depends on the state (in the US) or jurisdiction, but for NC the wording is very carefully laid out. Basically, the thing you are referring to is the oath that a mason will protect the secrets of another master mason. However, the wording is very particular that the obligation is true only if the secrets are told to me and received by me as such, AND I find the brother worthy. I, and every mason I know, would never find any brother worthy if he breaks any law - because such conduct is unmasonic. Its a bit circular, but the oath is stated that way in NC for a reason - basically it means I will keep secrets from a brother I find worthy, but I will find any immoral or illegal conduct unworthy because it would be unmasonic. What other secrets could there be? Nothing other than the completely benign type of "secrets" you might tell a good friend.

In NC, you can still take the oath quite literally and your still not under the obligation to cover up someone else's crimes or immoral activity.

I understand what you are saying and I think any person with morals would do the same, meaning not cover anyone else's butt who breaks the law. The problem is that it IS in there and it's left up to the individual if he feels the master mason is worthy or his brother is worthy. To me, in an ideal world, there would be NO need for an oath to protect your brother's secrets. I do understand personal things, and how most of us care to keep things personal and secret, even if they are nothing more than embarrassing facts, nothing morally bad. I think an oath like that one leaves too much room and probably expectations on a certain level, not to divulge your brother's wrong doings. Hey, I'm not saying that you all protect illegal activities, but the oath leaves to much room. Again, this could probably be argued both ways and I can kind of see both sides, but personally, I don't see the need for such protection. There's too much loyalty among many brotherhoods in which the loyalty comes before morality and it's not just the masons, but I believe many brotherhoods are like this. In fact, I know brotherhoods in which people have been protected and lied for to cover up their wrong doings. It's a common thing with them, it's humanity, not the mason's fault, but I would be willing to bet everything I own and will own in the future that many masons cover for their brother's illegal activities. I'll say it again though, this is not limited in ANY way to the masons, they just happen to be the discussion of the topic at hand. So, this problem I have with any "secret society" or "brotherhood", "frat", whatever.

Regarding "masonic documents" - again, at least for NC, the Grand Lodge have *several* books that go into fantastic description about the ritual for which anyone may read. It includes the charges for each degree, a description of it, even has little pictures. Anyone can purchase it from the grand lodge too. It's an official masonic document that goes into a fair amount of detail about the ritual. No, you will not find a verbatim copy of the ritual sold by the grand lodge except a book that is in cipher form (which is easy to figure out, you could buy it and figure it out easily if you wanted to). Nor will you find it for any fraternity, the elks, or the Knights of Columbus. This is not because its heinous, but because - again - ritual is kept secret as a demonstration of fidelity. In this day and age people forget that it is an important trait that people be able to keep a secret - few people can. It doesn't mean the secret is evil, but simply that there is innate value in being able to keep something confidential.

Totally hear ya. Keeping secrets does not make you evil. The tendencies of men and secrets does, in my opinion, as I mentioned above. Not meaning to pick on the masons though, this is just humanity.

JPT



[edit on 24-5-2008 by justpassingthrough]

reply to post by ALightinDarkness



Oh yeah, and thanks for giving me the info on the documents. I will look more into them and read more official stuff and compare it to what else is out there. Always the pessimist, I don't always believe the official story either... I do not believe the official 9/11 story or the official JFK story. I only mention this so you know I'm not picking on the masons. As I said before, I just like to get my hands on everything and compare it all. Again, thanks for the info!


JPT

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I would like to check out some of the different Bibles and stuff you guys have. Also if I approached a master mason or any mason at their lodge, wouldn't they just turn me away?

Does the skull and bones belong to masonry or is that a different bunch all together?

Thanks.

Originally posted by 12.21.12


Aren't their many parrellels in the 1st initiation that would imply selling your soul, or subjecting it to vulnerability to uphold the masonic secrets?

No.

I would say that one cannot "sell" his soul. He can drift into materialsm or immorality, but there's always a chance he will reform and repent.

Do you not learn in you persuit of becoming a 33rd degree mason alternate teachings than the Bible or Torah or what have you?

I would hope that *everybody* learns alternative teachings, regardless if one is a Mason. That is the point of education.

When does Luciferianism come into play?

What do you mean by "Luciferianism"?

Do you all study the work of Aleister Crowley??

I've studied Crowley since I was a teenager, and am a former associate member of Crowley's group O.T.O.

Are you guys very familiar with Thelema and other teachings??

I am, but Masons are not.

Originally posted by 12.21.12


In society, if freemasonry made itself public, it would be condemned and compared to witchcraft or satanism. Not my opinion, just reality.

I'm not sure how it could be compared to either. Satanism can mean either the worship of the Christian devil, or belonging to the atheistic anti-Christian group founded by LaVey. Witchcraft has to do with the revival of pre-Christian folk religions.

Obviously, Freemasonry cannot be compared with any of those.

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Well, I think the human sacrifice and oath to God is a different best than taking a blood oath to protect your fraternity and brothers above all, even breaking the law. is this correct?

No, it isn't. If a Mason believes a brother is participating in criminal activities, the Mason is under obligation to charge him and seek his expulsion from Freemasonry.

I did read somewhere that you must protect the fraternity and your brothers no matter what, with the only exceptions being murder or treason I believe. Is any of this true? I just don't know what to believe is all and I like to hear all sides of the story and form an opinion from there.

What you heard is not true. Case in point: a Mason was recently arrested and charged with unlawful manufacture of liquor at a Shriners Temple in South Carolina. Other Masons who were members of the Temple reported him.

Any Mason who breaks the criminal law automatically breaks Masonic law because Masons are sworn to uphold the law. We are vowed to protect *worthy* brothers. When one breaks the law, he obviously loses his worthiness.

Concerning your question about murder and treason being excepted: This refers to having someone you can trust, not having someone to cover up your crimes. That means if you were a Mason and you told me you used to sell pot when you were a kid, I wouldn't go blabbing about it all over town, but would keep your trust.

But if I found out you were selling pot now, it would become my duty to file charges against you for unmasonic conduct.

reply to post by justpassingthrough


It is so refreshing to talk to someone on ATS who may have concerns about masonry, but does not slander and libel us! You also seem open to hearing the other side and it truly appears your interested in examining the evidence. Thank you!

Your point about oaths being left up to the member to interpret is true of all oaths. People take oaths in court, when they get married, etc. Your ability to uphold the oath as intended is up to you. Because you take the oath does not mean you will truly perform it as intended - as we see that is the case with divorces and charges of contempt of court.

If a mason is upholding his oath, he will find all unmasonic conduct unworthy of being kept a secret. As such, masons are not keeping secret anything that the public should be concerned about - any unmasonic conduct - which includes every illegal or socially repugnant action I can think of, will never be kept secret and a member doing such things will be expelled. There are exceptions - but these are not due to the oath, these are due to the fact that a few bad apples get in every organization.

If a mason is not upholding his oath as intended by keeping these sorts of secrets, he is not really a mason in his heart and is something else (true performance of the obligation a large part of the definition of a mason). The obligation itself does not aid in the keeping of secrets, people who keep secrets they should not be keeping would ALWAYS do so - regardless of whether or not they took the oath seriously or understood it.

As you said, keeping "bad" secrets is just part of humanity...it will happen, regardless or not if it takes place in the context of a misinterpreted masonic oath.

Finally, regarding the official story - I am glad your not picking on us . However, I would point out that in order for there to be an "official" story there must be some event or catalyst that causes conspiracy theories to arise. In 9/11, there is only an official story because we had the 9/11 event. There is no official story on masonry because there has been no such "event" that I am aware of. Also, seeing as how we use some of those ritual books which you can read in the lodge, there would be some sort of super duper double-reverse secret psychology going on if there was a conspiracy.

[edit on 24-5-2008 by ALightinDarkness]