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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Which assumptions of MasonicLight's post are false? That Weishaupt joined Masonry to recruit for the Illuminati or that it was a failure?
Originally posted by Masonic Light
However, other Illuminati members (Von Knigge, Goethe, etc.) were already Masons before the Illuminati even existed, and remained Masons long after the Illuminati ended, having always held profound respect for the Craft.
Indeed, Goethe's last words were "More Light!"
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
The Areopagites of the Illuminati, those who controlled the direction of the Order (Weishaupt and Zwack the most prominent), whose letters were confiscated by the Bavarian Elector; they are the one's who are recorded as laughing at Masonry, holding the organization in contempt, duping them, and encouraging the initiates to steal from the Lodges.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
The Areopagites of the Illuminati, those who controlled the direction of the Order (Weishaupt and Zwack the most prominent), whose letters were confiscated by the Bavarian Elector; they are the one's who are recorded as laughing at Masonry, holding the organization in contempt, duping them, and encouraging the initiates to steal from the Lodges.
So, if Weishaupt was the founder was it his intention that the Illuminati villify Freemasonry in this way or was it borne out of resentment at some sense of competition.
I learnt a new word today too, always a pleasure in itself, but if Weishaupt was the founder how could he be described as an Aeropagite? Am I missing a subtlety here?
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Question one: both. But in general he wasn't impressed with Freemasonry as whole, and especially its mumbo-jumbo nomenclature. Freemasonry, to Weishaupt, was always the butt of the joke. But he had even more contempt for the Rosicrucians and their mystical, alchemical credulousness. The Illuminati and the Rosicrucians were mortal enemies and were constantly battling. The latter (along with ex-Jesuits) won the war.
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Question two: Weishaupt was the founder. His self-created title as ruler and dictator was the "General" - in homage to the Jesuits. Management of the Order was done through a council of 12 disciples, called the Areopagus. He was part of it, yet above it.
Here, take a gander:
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
By ex-Jesuits I mean those who were without an Order after the Papal decree , in 1773, that the Society of Jesus be dissolved.
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Weishaupt went into hiding in 1785, at the court of Illuminatus Ernst II, Duke von Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg. He lived out the remainder of his life under this family's protection.
J. J. C. Bode assumed the leadership, and continued to recruit for the Order until his death in December, 1793. After this, the Illuminati ceased to be anything resembling its initial form. After Bode's death, the mantle was passed on to the philosopher Karl Leonhard Reinhold. The latter totally dropped the ball, and managed to "declaw" the Order, until it resembled nothing of its former glory.
As far as any identifiable organization, the trail goes cold at this point.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
If JJC Bode 'assumed' leadership, can I presume that Weishaupt did not pass the mantel to him, rather Bode was 'elected' or 'selected' by means of popularity or some other device? And that this took place after Weishaupt was 'exiled'? Is there complete certainty that Weishaupt DID NOT resurrect his version of the Illuminati in even more elite circles and perhaps pass the Generalship to someone within the Saxe-Gotha-Althenburg enclave?
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
One thing is certain though, the Saxe-Gotha family are the sole heirs of the final secrets of both Bode and Weishaupt. When Bode died in 1793, his private papers concerning his Illuminati activities were given to Duke Ernst II. They were duly suppressed and shipped off to Sweden. From there they passed into history and into various hands, the Nazis and the Russians among them, until the remainder of them are finally accessible to scholars.
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
But Ernst also inherited Weishaupt's secrets. His wife and brother too, were quite intimate friends with Weishaupt. They probably had some sort of unique initiate circle which centered around the Saxe-Gotha royal family - the direct ancestors of the British royal family (Queen Victoria married a descendant of Ernst II). Weishaupt spent 45 years! at that court, he had to have been up to something more substantial than polemics against Kantian philosophy.
Edward, mainly through his mother and his father-in-law, was related to nearly every other European monarch and came to be known as the "uncle of Europe".[2] The German Emperor Wilhelm II, Tsar Nicholas II of Russia, Grand Duke Ernest Louis of Hesse and Duke Charles Edward of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha were Edward's nephews; Queen Victoria Eugenia of Spain, Crown Princess Margaret of Sweden, Crown Princess Marie of Romania, Crown Princess Sophia of Greece and Empress Alexandra Feodorovna of Russia were his nieces; King Haakon VII of Norway was both his nephew by marriage and his son-in-law; King George I of Greece and King Frederick VIII of Denmark were his brothers-in-law; and King Albert I of Belgium, King Charles I and King Manuel II of Portugal, Tsar Ferdinand of Bulgaria, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands, and Prince Ernst August, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, were his cousins. Edward doted on his grandchildren, and indulged them, to the consternation of their governesses.[57] However, there was one relation whom Edward did not like and his difficult relationship with his nephew, Wilhelm II, exacerbated the tensions between Germany and Britain.[58]
[...]
The history of the ‘Schwedenkiste’ is quite an adventurous one for archival material. The leading Illuminate Bode of Weimar died in December 1793. His estate included the most important part of the correspondence of the Order of the Illuminati of Gotha and Weimar. These papers became the property of the other leading Illuminate Herzog Ernst v. Gotha, where they were kept safely. After his death in 1804 his own estate together with Bode’s documents was handed over to the archive of the Grand National Lodge of Sweden, because Herzog Ernst was convinced that his heritage was not safe from publication in any of the German lodges. Under the supervision of the Swedish king Karl XIII. though, it was guaranteed that no information would ever reach the public. Some years later, in 1880, Herzog Ernst II. of Saxony Coburg Gotha (great-grandchild of the Illuminate Herzog of Saxony Coburg Gotha and Altenburg) asked for the documents to be returned, and three years later, in 1883, the stock became property of the lodge “Ernst zum Kompaß” in Gotha. Following the order of the Herzog, the material was put in order in 20 volumes. Later, in 1909, Reverend Carl Lepp added quite useful registers and lists of documents; the material was then named Schwedenkiste. Also in the freemason archive in Gotha the files were strictly kept under lock and key since the Herzog ordered the lodge not to allow any publication whatsoever. This obligation was solely taken seriously in the 1920’s and 1930’s, the time of the idea of total conspiracy. Until before World War I, a number of researchers, mainly freemasons, were allowed to work with the content of the Schwedenkiste. Among them were the restorer of the Order of the Illuminati, Leopold Engel, and the French author of the early, exhaustive work on the Illuminati, Rene Le Forrestier (who was not a freemason). (..) On March 20th, 1936, the documents were confiscated within the framework of the national socialist persecution of the freemasons. (...) In 1945 they were then transported to the Soviet Union.
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
About the Illuminati papers of Bode; it's called the Schwedenkiste (Swedish crate/box).
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
But in general he wasn't impressed with Freemasonry as whole, and especially its mumbo-jumbo nomenclature. Freemasonry, to Weishaupt, was always the butt of the joke.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
What is the estimated publish date for your book? I would very much like to peruse its contents as this topic interests me greatly.
Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
If you like anal-retentive detective work, academic (and primary source) citations in the thousands, and a no-BS approach to scholarship (yes, I have no qualms about qualifying it as such), then you'll love it!