Originally posted by jaamaan


Shazam The Unbowed, i think you have brought up many interesting points and views and most of them i agree on.
I think you presented your information in quite a diplomatic and non offensive way most of the time and like to compliment you on your thread.
I have been reading every ones input with great interest.

Be carefull not to fall for the personal, yes it is, no it isnt, trap.
I think you have been adressing most of the real questions here in a very decent way.

Keep up the good work, Peace and Respect.

Thanks for the kind words Jaamaan

Sooooo....is there nothing left to say if both sexes are held accountable for their actions, attitudes and behaviors? Must there be a clear victor? Must one be vindicated at the expense of the other? Is there no balm in Gilead?

Originally posted by whitewave
Sooooo....is there nothing left to say if both sexes are held accountable for their actions, attitudes and behaviors? Must there be a clear victor? Must one be vindicated at the expense of the other? Is there no balm in Gilead?

but thats not the way it is? im confused on whether you think this or not...

Woman arent having to take responsibility for their actions increasingly, like i had said before that if you saw a woman hitting a man in public the majority of the witnesses automatically side with the woman. I had a long debate on this topic today with my girlfriend and her best friend (who is also a girl) and they both agreed that woman couldnt hurt men as much as men could hurt woman so woman hitting men is justified that way fo them, but that is wrong. If either gender could take responsibility for their actions then yes there would be nothing left to say, however there is loads to say because our society is not equal its shifting more towards woman right now.

Originally posted by whitewave


. There needs to be a single standard of acceptable behavior.

And how does that work?
Men and women are different. Biochemically, physically, hormonally, psychologically, and in every other "ally" you can think of. The idea that men and women are the same, that we should be the same, that we should do the same, is the first lie of feminism.

If we are not the same, why should we be expected to act as if we are?

Should we judge a Woman deficient because she doesn't dedicate herself as completly to her job as her male collegues? Should we judge a Man deficient because he doesn't devote himself to his children as completly as his female colleagues?

We are not the same, we can not be, because Men and Women are two halves of one whole.

reply to post by Shazam The Unbowed

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amen! this is absolutely true, but how do we help woman see this as true since from birth we've been taught that woman are one in the same? when i was debating my girlfiend today she said she wanted full equality and i brought up the woman in combat scenerio and she said she wanted woman to be able to fight, despite the fact that its probably ten times more dangerous for woman to be in combat than men. but thats the thing we've been forced equality we dont even notice that its illogical to send woman to a war.

I must make haste and post as I must get some things done before shoving off to work.

Whitewave tuned me into this post and I have bookmarked it for further reading as I've only had time to read up to page 3 of this thread. I have seen variations of this thread over the some 3 years I have been posting on ATS/BTS.

I think some of the women are correct about the men here....but they also miss alot of what the men are speaking about and their concerns. Likewise many of the men are off target..and are describing symptoms ..not causes.

I agree with the OP's premise...and why..and tend to agree. Many men today are in fact very femminine. To me they have been raised primarily by women and have womens values and thinking patterns. They have also been raised primarily in front of a television and video games.

I know this about many men be cause I often mark one definite identifying fingerprint on many of them. That is that they tend to define the world or thier experiences by some movie or television program they have watched..and they use this to define some moral or social concept.
In otherwords ..they have little atcual experience or knowlege of the world outside of some television program they have watched or movie. Their thougths are movie/television thoughts ..their morals are movie/television morals...ie..someone elses. THey are second hand people...who are mostly able to define who and what they are by consumption rates..

People..this is very femminine. They are often consumers..not men..

This includes beer drinking and sports too...very consumer oriented. Many men often live second hand through their gods of sports and all the trappings of their sports gods. THey cannot defend a mans position from an overly emotional woman...but they know all the trappings and status of the gods of sports. HOw pitiful.

People..politics and this movement.....both are what is called..Occult...hidden..esoteric. Known only by a chosen few initiates.

Politics itself is very femminine...you folks should already know this. In politics..you can take or hijack credit for what you as a politican havent done and if it goes badly you can place or transfer blame to others and not be much seen. This is very femminine. You guys and girls should already know this. Dont look to politics for the solution. They are only intrested in harnessing the votes of women to remain in power. They will harness anyones vote..that can be identified as a voting block..especially in high electorical vote states. Politicians are in the buisness of selling peoples souls for votes..People..this is femminine and occult.

Occult practices and religions are dominated at certain levels by women and the effeminate. You should already know this too. Is to much sports and tostesterone blocking your thinking??

This drivel about women making less moneys is total crap...rubbish ..a victimization defalt setting to play through unaccountable.
It never seems to occur to either the women or the abomnable ignorance of most men...that if the women were in fact doing the same work as men...and for less pay ..the men would be out of jobs..they would long since have been fired and be depending on the women to support them...LOL LOL LOL...fat chance. Has it ever occured to some of you whining women and ignorant men ..that it is obvious that socially ...buisnesses would rather hire illegal alien men than todays woman. Please try thinking some time..not emoting and attempting to pass emotions off as the correct default setting in order to play through unaccountable. Women as a whole are "not" doing the work that the men are doing and they are "not" taking the risks that men tend to take.
If this were so the men would long ago have been fired and the women still working for less pay. Buisnesses know how to extend the profit margin if they can. Please women ..try a better more intelligent concept.
What the womens movement wants to do here is play through by default.

To many women out here are so accustomed to defaulting emotions through as correct. To them emoting is the same as being correct and rightious. It is not.
Sad truth is also that many men or males today are doing the very same thing. They dont know how to do anything but emote.
Women are not looking for competition from men in the emoting department.

By the way..I have posted this many times on ATS/BTS. Women do not want a sensitive man....no way!! They want a man who is sensitive to them!!! You guys pull your heads out of your backsides and do some thinking about what this implys and actually bodes for the male.

Are you guys getting the picture here. What I am describing is not the womens fault..it is the mens fault for not thinking about what they do or the risks they take and the value of these commodities in the marketplace.

In short they have defaulted to a counterfit system while they have been out working or worshiping the gods of sports. It is the fault of the male..not the female. The males are the stupid ones here. They have allowed this hijacking to take place. They have settled for second or third or further down the line places..while working for first place for everyone else. You have to be educated to be this naturally stupid. Translate this..indoctrinated.

What the women out here...most of them are looking for is "Options" not necessarily more responsibility..and definitely not more responsibility at great risk to themselves or thier persons. Throw in the term "RISK" and about 90% of the women out here are going to back off quickly.
The sad truth is that most of the men now days will back off too. They too are femminized. Television/video game thinking and values.

I gotta shove off..work to do here. I am glad Whitewave has tuned me into this thread. Whitewave is one of the women I admire on ATS/BTS.
While we dont always agree..I have a great respect for her and her views.
Thanks Whitewave.

I will read more later and post.
My thanks to the OP for starting this thread.

Orangetom

I believe MEN are the crowning of creation; the pinnacle of all the natural world. I also believe that, unfortunately, most "guys" are just males and not MEN at all.

I fully understand that there are fundamental differences between men and women. I do not think that males get to claim superiority over women by virtue of their testosterone level.

As a woman (a fairly old woman at that), I have many innate and learned abilities that equal or rival those of most males. Generally speaking, I am not as physically strong as a male of my height and weight but I am usually more agile. I am usually smarter than most males my age. I make a decent wage and manage my money well.

I think that "women's lib" was a sugar-coated poison pill that many of us swallowed whole and are now choking to death on. If I'd known that being "liberated" meant working 60 hours/week, raising 5 kids on my own, doing all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, yard work, car maintenance, bill-paying and so on, I'd have plucked my burning bra out of the fire and beaten Virginia Wolfe with it.
As for taking risks for your time and money: I work as a nurse. How many males expose themselves to deadly contagious diseases, physically assaultive "customers", DNA altering radiation, mutagenic chemicals on a daily basis and don't make as much money as the non-English-speaking, barely educated groundskeeper who just happens to be male?
On the whole, women don't do a lot of the heavy, manual labor jobs that usually require a minimal education above being able to sign your name but that do require brawn. The work that women typically do is not considered as important as the work that males typically do and is not compensated as well.

I agree that if a woman runs a jack-hammer all day, she should get the same amount of money as the men doing the same work. How many women COULD run a jack-hammer for 10 minutes? Then again, how many men could deal with the endless tedium of playing patty-cake all day with a 12 month old child? Raising decent and secure children is the most important job in the world and so it is "priceless". Is it of no value because it doesn't come with a paycheck, dental plan, day off, vacation, 401? Do you honestly believe there's no risk in being pregnant and giving birth?

I understand (and to a point, agree with) what is being opined by the OP, but the flip side balancing the equation is that men can not have their cake and eat it too. They can not drink swill all weekend, scream at whatever "athlete" is tossing a ball on television all night, sleep around with whatever available female presents herself and expect to be lord of the castle, even if it's his paycheck covering the mortgage on said castle. It is unredeemingly insulting to a women to act like her life is disposable, replaceable and of value only as it serves your needs/wants/whims.

Equal in life, if not in function. And my functions are every bit as valuable as a mans. I don't ask that a man subsume his will, time, efforts to my benefit but I insist that he not expect me to subsume mine to him. Respect is genderless.

Very eloquently written Whitewave. I realise now, after reading your reply, that I jumped the gun when I claimed earlier in this thread that there was not anything to be learned from this thread. Oh happy early mothers day to you as well.

Speaking of mothers, and raising children. I had the differences between the sexes put to me as this. Women are smaller in stature because the womb saps energy from the woman. This energy is used to bear the babies, which by the way is the purest form of love on earth.

Men are bigger in stature, and are built to take the brunt of any physical threat. Women in my opinion are far more valuable to society, than men. If there was a village, and there was more men then women. That village would fail. Why? because the pregnancy process takes 9 months. With more women than men, there can be more children being born, which means a higher probability of more baby girl being born.

Now, one could bring up the modern overpopulation factors. Either way, women bear children, and this is a miracle to me.

I think men appear to be effeminate today because they're intimidated out of the natural masculine tendency to want to take initiatives.

Taking initiatives has become too complicated and too risky, too many rules and exceptions run by too many bosses.

So they sublimate, read sports pages, engage in trade deals, wash the car, skip out on tyranny for a while. Avoid.

Avoidance pisses women off, and that's too bad. There are no worlds left to conquer.

To orangetom and whitewave, great post! I recently had to quit a $26.00 an hour job due to my health and age. My male counterparts were able to stay on and work the required 12 hour days but unfortunately, I was not. It has nothing to do with my being a woman. I had an on the job accident several years ago which has taken on tremendous toll on my body. My husband is once again the sole supporter. As he tells his friends and co-workers, “I make the living and she makes the living worthwhile.” He jokingly complains that I spoil him too much.

I have been told on more than one occasion that I don’t act or think like a woman. I don’t know what that means. I used to listen to guys at work complain about their home life, wife or girlfriends. I don’t understand the need for drama. I do understand why many of them are willing to work a lot of overtime.

I guess that much of the trouble between men and women is the unwillingness to compromise. People seem to be too self-centered rather than partner centered. My husband is my partner. I make decisions based on how it affects my partnership rather than what I want and my husband does the same. There is no control struggle or drama in our relationship.

The feminist movement is a power struggle to dominate men imho. I understand why they feel this way, but do not agree with it. Too many women want equality and deference. This is unrealistic. Too many other women have no idea what they want.

Women who do the same job as men, which I’ve done for years, should receive the same pay and most do. What many women complain of is that most traditional female jobs are valued less and the pay is much lower. Society and biology has delegated the job of child-rearing to the woman. The result is that many well-deserved men have lost the battle for child custody.

When men and women stop trying to manipulate the system and start taking responsibility for their actions, we’ll see the end of the gender war.