The Conspiracy against Manhood.

but its not about whether woman are worth more than men...in fact that goes against what we've been saying on this thread. Yes giving birth is great and all but woman cant get pregnant without a man so saying that woman are more valuable because they give life is non sense because men help them out with that.

The point is that men and woman need each other and because we need each other one is not better than the other because one without the other is worthless all together. Men without woman would have nothing to impregnate, woman without men would not be able to get pregnant.

That village with more men would not fail unless some outside force or the men did not provide enough food to support the village, woman in the village would still be able to give birth and the population would grow probably more slowly than a village with more woman but it would still grow. In no way does having more men doom civilization to absolute failure and it is ridiculous to suggest such a thing on a theoretical situation.




Are you saying fathers love their children less than a mother because they did not give birth?

[edit on 9-5-2008 by caballero]

Shazam the Unbowed,

I have seen you make several references to Communism while making your points. I would like to submit to you that this is not the template to make in this topic.

The template to make is religion..occult religion. Concealed, Covert, esoteric...verses open , overt, seen by everyone.

What many of the guys here are complaining or want to make clear is what they perceive as a second hand or further down the pecking order status while working and taking risks for first hand status.

I submit to you that the manner in which this is done and carried out is hidden from both the men and the women. THey are both being lead here.
THey are both following a false paradim without most even being aware it is happening

What is going to happen to this false paradim at $5.00 to $8/00 per gallon?
Oh..by the way..it went to $3.48 on my street yesterday...up from $3.37 the day before.

I submit to you that our economic affluence in this country had afforded us a very false paradim. A template to cloud our eyes and thinknig of both males and females.

The reason this takes place is that merchandizers, manufacturers, and advertisers have determined that the people most necessary to be sold in an affluent economy is the female ..not the male.
They know that psychologically the females have access in such an economy of affluence ...to two incomes from which to spend....theirs if they work and his too if they do or dont work. It is the women/females who determine where how and when the moneys are spent...not necessarily earned but spent. What I am saying Shazam..is that the female is the determiner of the direction affluent economys go..not the male. The male only earns the moneys and some of them at great risk. Most men I Know are so stupid..they can hardly think this far...they are groomed by sports and television values to never think outside of a block preset for them...even by public education. However..the female too is in this preset group of blocks and often without thinking.
This Shazam....is why the education, the politics , and many other facets of life in this country is being stealthily defaulted over to female and femminine thinking. ...because it makes for a better consumer. Not because it makes for a better class of people or intelligently serves the public.
Women and females determine what kinds of houses are purchased, What furnishings go into them. Clothing styles, What cars get purchased...etc etc etc. THe male is left mostly on the periphery...except when the bills are due.
No where in this scenerio do you see mentioned ...the risks taken in earning the moneys.
The merchandizers , manufacturers , and advertisers also know that if they can sell the children ..they can sell the mothers and hence the males again. The route to the wallet is through the children then through the women and then to the male.

This scenerio is called "male expendability and disposability."

This is what many of you are complaining about and not getting any relief in this system. It is not designed to give you relief..it is designed to keep both partys on the treadmill. Often at the cost of the next generation..the children.

If this is true economically ..it also means it is true politically....which means it is true ..in the educational circles since poliltics pays for or finances public education. Public education is perpetuating this template.

What I am telling you Shazam..is that this is not a Partriarchial society for which so many women are complaining. It is a Martriarchial society masquerading as a Patriarchial society. It is a stealth society.

THe willingness of the male to take risks for his moneys and turn them over to the female for distribution to the family is one of the greatest adaptations of all time in human history. Yet you hardly see this mentioned in lieu of the standard mantra of male abuse and beer drinking. What you do not see in such a social structure ...is equality being promoted such that the women are willing by and large to reverse this trend at great risk to themselves. It is not going to happen..simply because of the RISK factor.
In an affluent social/economical structure ...women as a group simply dont want to undertake any risk to their one economic calling card...beauty and sex. There are individual women who will do this and it is to their credit..but the gender as a whole ..will not do this. The calling card is a valuable asset and not to be jeopardized in this manner. Not to be RISKED.

All you have to do is look around you and see..ask yourself..if the women you know..dream, expect, and fantasize about uglyness...and that they are the central focus of uglyness. Or do they dream, expect, and fantasize about beauty...and beautiful things, and that they are the central focus of beauty and beautiful things. That they will make the world a more beautiful place just by being there and directing.
No where in such a scenerio do you ever see mentioned ..the risks necessary to make or keep such a system of beauty going or created/maintained.

This is why men are second class citizens in the nations they take risks to build and maintain. They are IMPLICIT...they are not EXPLICIT....by DEFAULT. This means that the women are intrested in OPTIONS...not necessarily RISKS. Understand now..Shazam??

You are limiting your thinking and overview by dwelling on Communism. Communism is such a phoney placebo. Communism is such a idiocracy simply because under Communism...they are so economically inert and dead that they could not possibly creat such economic affluence by which to establish such a false paradim as is being described here. Communism cannot do it...Communists are way to stupid. They must have economic help from nations like ours to become economically affluent.

The secret to this is Occult..Shazam...how to hide this paradim right in front of everyone such that they think it is perfectly normal. They dont even notice it. They dont even think outside the blocks which have been spoon fed to them their whole lifetime.

There is nothing normal about this and it most certainly is not equality.

Thanks,
Orangetom

If there was one woman and nine men, and all nine of those men had sex with that one woman. Only one of those men would get the one woman pregnant. The woman would remain pregnant for nine months. Now, lets say that woman has a male child.

Now, There is one man and nine women, and that one man has sex with all nine women. There is a greater probability for those nine women, if they get pregnant, to have a female baby. In my opinion, this makes women more valuable to the survival of the human race. One could include test tube babies into this, however that is something else.



I am on the same page with that. My point was that they are more valuable to the human race. Treating them as second class citizens is harmful in so many ways.



Could nature be considered an outside force? Women can provide food to support the village just as easily as men can.



How about another village, one with more women, which has more people. Decides to raid the village that is stunted due to the lack of child bearing women. They are more likely to be dominated, due to the larger amount of people.



That is your opinion. We could say look at society now. In my opinion, having more men in charge has doomed us.



Not at all. I am stating that babies are invaluable. Due to this, babies should be treated as sacred. It's my opinion that a large portion of society including women, do not look at the big picture.


[edit on 5/9/2008 by eye open doors]

Thats depends on how they get thier food. If they tend to hunt big game with primitive tools, then no they cant. If they are farmers with primitive equipment, then probably not as well. If on the other hand its a commune in the midwest and they get food form the gorcery store.....

Uh...huh yeah sure, what ever you say big man.

Look like it or not, women are smaller, weaker, more prone to injury, and less able to deliver power to a target. If you are hunting mamoths with spears then a village of just women would probably starve.

Yes there is a greater possibilty, but you cannot deny the possibility that the other village will grow as well however slow that pace is. In any case this is a completely theoretical situation that would most likely not happen Nature balances it out so that we as a species dont have to encounter this problem. Woman still need a mans sperm for in vitro fertalization procedure.



And treating men as second class citizens would be just as harmful in a lot of the same ways, thats why you cant put more value on one gender more than the other we need each other therefore we are of equal value. To say woman are of more value would mean they can sustain the population themselves and they cant, they NEED men to help them and men NEED woman to help them as well. Since they cannot provide stability for the population of the species by themselves they should not be considered more valuable.



Yes nature could be and an outside army as well both are uncontrolled by the village, population is controlled by the village. Like what happend in pompeii that was an outside force and it destroyed the city. The men of pompeii had no part of that destuction. Yes woman can provide food and that is the way it is in many villages around the world, but men also provide meat from hunting they provide protection woman cannot provide and they do all of the manual labor that woman cannot help with. so yes they can provide some of the food provided to the village but men will most likely provide more. An example being the Kombai tribe of new guinea the woman make some sort of bread dish while men hunt daily for the protein given to the tribe. the men in kombai also cut down the trees used for the bread that woman make.



thats a logical fallacy, because defense from other tribes depends on the streangth of their tribe, so a larger tribe could just as easily be subdued especially if its made up of more woman than men they wouldnt even have a fighting chance.



and this is your opinion however i agree an disagree with this opinion. Men have done a lot of good and bad for society but so have woman. You cant focus on one gender and pin humanities problems on them its is for the most part equally distributed. Woman are just as immoral and greedy as men are and to say otherwise is non-sense.

Eye Open Doors,



While I do believe that women bearing babies is love and very important. This concept as a mantra as a dogma ...pales ...when you realize what the abortion issue has done and it clearly demonstrates that expedience is more important to many women than is love. Also...this abortion buisness has gelled down to the concept that male love does not count for his offspring by default. He has no input into this. He is as expendable and disposable..as is the unborn child. I know many many men who have found themselves in this position. Their voices go as unheard as their unborn children. These men are as disposabable and expendable as are their unborn children.

Men are bigger in stature, and are built to take the brunt of any physical threat. Women in my opinion are far more valuable to society, than men.

This is how male expendablility and disposability are justified and rationalized....accross the board....and all that this implys.

Whitewave,

Equal in life, if not in function. And my functions are every bit as valuable as a mans. I don't ask that a man subsume his will, time, efforts to my benefit but I insist that he not expect me to subsume mine to him. Respect is genderless.

I like a woman who is functional ..not form only. This increases her value to me ..immensely. This is why I dont have much use for a woman whos main skill is how to get me to replace my thinking and value system with her's while attempting to use sex and beauty as the bait. Agree ..respect is genderless. Which is one of the reasons I have little use for the gods of sports and beer drinkng. I greatly dislike the sports subculture pandered to the public in many nations.

Both are dedicated to their job and their family-just in different degrees due to their different functions. The acceptable standard of behavior in your scenario is the dedication, not the degree of its expression.

I agree here Whitewave....except..that risk is often socially assigned to only one memeber here.....this type of expression. This template is often by default considered normal. I dont consider it normal nor equality. I greatly dislike it when a woman asks me to undertake some task or job without realizing the risks entailed in it. THe risk factor needs more consideration ..by both male and female.
I had this conversation with a co worker. His woman wanted him to get her a new car and subtily grooming him by clues and cues. I explained to him ..that she was really asking him to take on more risk and get a benefit without risk to herself. Only Options. He got her a van. Now he is complaining about budgets and gas. I'm not intrested in hearing it and walk off when the complaining starts. He did not consider the risks..and was thinking of performing (running the touchdown for her). The van is staying parked ...more and more. I predict that eventually it will be up for sale...as will be the case for many of us. He made himself..disposable and expendble. Sports conditioning/brainwashing.

Whitewave, I know what kinds of risks you take for your moneys since I too take many of those same risks. You are very much like a male with no safety net under you. I dated two nurses in times past and they explained much to me for which I had never considered up to that point. It was an eyeopener. As I have come to understand it ...nursing is a very understaffed occupation. People who live by the philosophy of instand gratification do not go into nursing. Last time I knew ..there was a shortage of good qualified nurses. The pay and benefits do not reflect this shortage. Is there a hijacking going on in this profession?? A feudal system stealthily in play??


Oh by the way..those of you who can think outside the box...I recommend this book.

"The Myth of Male Power"

by Warren Farrell

It is an eye opener for those who can think outside the standard blocks of pablum and defaults fed to us from infancy.

I agree with Sarcastic about the concept of sublimating amongst males. Very very common.

Eye open doors,

I really get tired of hearing stuff like this simply because of the nonsense often ignored for what it really is.

I didn't know for certain, but it sounded good when it was explained to me. His point was that men who hit women are jerks because women have wombs and men are stronger.

I honestly believe that everyone (especially men) should have mandatory extensive parenting classes, including child psychology, and health care.

I dont approve of men hitting women nor women hitting men and this is becoming more and more noticable as women become more violent...however I would like to point out something here.

I also dont approve of women who by subtilty ..assign risk to men without taking risk themselves in like manner for a benefit..ie..OPTION. I consider this the same as abuse. It is no different than hitting someone. Especially when done by subtilty and taking advantage of the ignorance or unperception of another.

I believe women should have mandatory and extensive relationship classes on RISK. Learning how to take risks....including the psychology of it. It should be brought into the light of day so that this abuse is understood by more peoples.

I need for you to explain to me and others on this board how assigning risk to others..by default and subtilty is not abusive. By default you can substitute the word or concept ...taking for granted. How it is not the same as hitting someone. What happened here to the purest form of love and all that implys??


Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom


[edit on 9-5-2008 by orangetom1999]

Shazam,



I strongly suggest you rethink your view of male power.

What these women who want to RISK it are telling you to your face..is that for every man who claims brawn and brain..there is a woman knowlegable and expereienced enough to redirect his efforts such that he thinks it is his idea all along. Dude...that is alot of power.

Do not ever get all enamoured of what males tend to think is alot of power. It is easily turned to flatulance by a skillful woman who can read a man like radar in the dark. I've seen it done over and over.

As I often say..only a man can be this naturally stupid. Subtily is a very very powerful tool.

What these women are telling you with subtilty and yet out in the open..is that properly applied..they can run circles around your brawn and get you to do it for them.

Dont be a textbook male...they are expendable and disposable. A dime a dozen.

Thanks,
Orangetom

And that contradicts the point I was making in what way?


Yes and Ive seen men wrap women around thier pinkie finger. What is your point beyond rehashing tied sterotyopes of "men big and dumb" "Women sneaky and smart"?


and only a slave could be this self hating.

In some circumstances perhaps. And perhaps they aren't "running circles" around #. Most men know when a woman is trying to "manipulate them", and so long as we get what we want out of it, dont really care.


Wow. Talk about bigotry and sexism.



Ohh, Im always happy to listen to misandrist hatred, it reminds me of my mision.

[edit on 5/9/2008 by Shazam The Unbowed]

reply to post by orangetom1999

---

Are you kidding with this? Men are just a disposable as an aborted fetus? Im confused to high hell what your stance is on this topic because from where i stand you sound like a guy who is agreeing with the extreme feminists in saying that you as a man have no worth to the world...Im ver upset by this outlook if that is your outlook, because that couldnt be farther from the truth.

the truth is that men and women are both worth equal value to life on the planet. Not one gender is supierior to the other, and if your a man its absolutely appalling that youre siding with extreme feminists. If those are truly your views on men than i am disgusted at two things that your actually agree with that B.S. and that feminism is worse than i thought it was.

[edit on 9-5-2008 by caballero]

Whew!!!! ONly have a few minutes before shoving off here in VA.

I had an idea that some of you would go balllistic on this one. Thats alright.

Shazam,



Hunting is a very time and skill consuming occupation. I dont put much stock in todays male to accomplish this...many today having been raised on a diet of television and video games...ie..sports and cheerleaders.

Also today ..remember..alot of what our fathers and grandfathers used to do manually is done with machines. This alone would leave many of the men today by the wayside...with the women.

My point is that though women may be smaller and weaker across the board than men..do not mistate their ability to get a task accomplished by getting a man to do it for them and the man think it was his idea. This is what I mean when I say ..substitute his value and thinking system with her's. It requires great subtilty and strength. A different kind but no less strength an power. Many women do ??
Somehow this concept seems to upset alot of men. Reference my tale above of the guy who bought his wife the new van. That is a lot of power and control over a man.

I submit to you what I was explaining above about merchandizers , advertiseres and manufacturers. Your homework assignment Shazam..is when you are out and about...go into any of the department stores...any of them. Pennys, Macys, Belk, Wally World et al. Do a careful overview of the quantity of merchandize and the floorspace dedicated to it. How much is dedicated to womens products verses mens products. You will find the floorspace about 6 to 1 or 7 to 1 female. This is alot of power. Economic power. It is alot of default. Understand??

Economic power is political power..is educational power..is reflected in the court system. Understand now??

Remember what I said..only men can be this dumb they dont get it. Why would they...they have NASCAR, Hooters, the LA Lakers...cheerleaders et al...etc etc. LOL LOL ..its so great to be a man...in this world.

LOL LOL misandrist hatred..lol lol..well done Shazam...

Truth is ..I dont think much more of what passes for manhood today as I do for womanhood. To me they are both about as dumb and defaulting.

Yes and Ive seen men wrap women around thier pinkie finger. What is your point beyond rehashing tied sterotyopes of "men big and dumb" "Women sneaky and smart

This is not my point and it is similar to what many do in misdirection. I dont think much of a man who does this to a woman without any real value in return. It is just as cheap as what many women do to men.

And the template I am describing still holds..for all men and women no...but it is much more common than is wont to put light on.

When I do put light on it I get exactly the reactions from people like yourself. Ironically with many points I make ...the women ..many of them tend to be silent..they dont want light put on this concept either.

What you have out here..going on is social thinking and values..defaults being substituted as equality and even entitlements ....when they are no such thing. They are counterfits to any real value. You have rampant consumer entitlements interfearing with any real honest value in male female relationships. In otherwords ...good times have ruined us in this arena. This will become obvious when we go twords 6 to 8 dollars a gallon.
Who do you think is going to be more expendable and disposable in such a system run by politicians...ie ...public educators financed by politicians.
Who will get more title IX programs and the like and who will be paying for them without benefit??

and only a slave could be this self hating.

this is misdirection off the topic and concepts. It is what many women and politicians do. Keep aiming at tangents...never the bullseye.

In some circumstances perhaps. And perhaps they aren't "running circles" around #. Most men know when a woman is trying to "manipulate them", and so long as we get what we want out of it, dont really care.

How does this help..it is exactly how many women and politicians conduct themselves...as long as we get what we want out of it ..dont really care. This is why the children today suffer alot in this system. No ..alot of men I know do not know when a woman is manipulating them...they only "begin" to catch on when the risks come due. This is why my emphasis on RISK!!

RISK management is what seperates the men from the boys and also the women from the girls...very quickly.
Do not lose sight of this in favor or male brawn or tostesterone. Brawn and tostesterone are highly overated...when one considers subtilty as a power factor.

My position still stands..in this affluent social structure..the most expendable and disposable sex ...is the male by far..this is nothing to boast and toot ones horn about . It is definitely not equality. Nor is it Love.
It is consumption, consumption rates and the justification for it.

Caballero,

Really gotta make haste now..

I dont agree with extreme femminists..I think they are abunch of flatulance too. I also dont agree with alot of what passes for male now days. I think too ..that alot of maleness has been compromised with counterfit templates based on consumerism and false beliefs.....leading to, aiding ,abetting his disposability and expendability.

Gotta go...
More later...when I get back.

Thanks to all for their posts.
Orangetom

Yes, but women raised on fashion magazines and shoe catalogues will.




Ahh yes, the old "who needs a man when you've got a vibrator" argument.
Not impressed.


I dont beleive I have underestimated anyones abillity to do anything. Your the one claiming otherwise. I never said women were lesser, just that they are weaker, and as such, would not do as well as men and physical tasks.


So because women are "smarter" men should accept thier value system.
Yep feminist propaganda.


Or pehaps he simply wanted to do soemthing nice. Naturally, being a willing slave, you assume she "manipulated him".



What you were "explaining" is illogical.



Oh this should be rich.


Depends on the store. I go into cabella or Bass pro shoppes and theres more "male" florspace. Women tend to spend more on clothes than men do. Thats why department stores have more room for women. Duh.



No. Because you arent making any sense.


And it must be so sad to be as self-loathing as you are. All men are is "hooters and nascar", Its sad you have such a low opinion of yourself.



Look at your statements. They arent the words of soemone who finds value in himself, or any other man.

Of course, thats why men should accept woemns "value systems"



Sure it wasn't.


What, that we feel sorry for how little self respect you have? Yeah I imagine you get that a lot.






You're the one spouting the "feminine superiority" angle.


Right, cause we are all dumb beasts of burden. Gotcha.




Hopefully, one day you will learn to respect yourself.

reply to post by orangetom1999

---

i have to agree with shazam on all his points orangetom you are wrong in everyway you are the semi perfect man to feminism if only you were even less capable of living with out your oh so wonderful feminists then you would be the prime example of the feminists man.

You are spouting out nonsense left and right, half of what you said only hardly makes sense the other half is confusing as hell.

Shazam you are right to say he has no respect for him self. Orangetom after all the feminist propoganda youve been spouting out im ashamed that you are of the same gender as me. You have no respect for men or yourself and it shows from your posts. men are just as valuable and intelligent as woman are the only differences that men and woman have are physical and instinctual differences.

[edit on 9-5-2008 by caballero]

Caballero



Does nature always balance things out? What if a large portion of a species think they are beyond nature?



That is a very good point. However I still believe that womens value to our survival as a species outweighs the ego grasping ways of the commonly accepted male image.



Are women incapable of defending themselves, or wielding weapons?



I bet if any woman in that society chooses to cut down one of those threes, or any other social taboo. she will either be beaten, outcasted, or killed. I am willing to also bet that their creation myth supports reasons why.



So why is it that women are commonly undervalued in society even though they bear children?



I disagree. Women tend to be more agile, and flexible. If women are allowed to fight, and wield weapons (like the celts, and vikings) they could cut a throat, or bust open a skull just as aptly as any man.



Take a look the most commonly accepted creation myth in western society. What does it imply?

Orangetom1999



I said babies are the purest form of love on this earth. Many a newborn has thawed the heart of a fool. I believe that people shouldn't even have sex unless they intend to have child. If they intend to have a child they should be prepared to sacrafice a lot of meaningless ways.

I have come to this through experience and watching people around me who have made decisions that have affected them, their children, and the whole community.

They aren't. At least not in ours.

I know exactly what you belive. You're a sexist bigot.

No they can't. This is why men and women dont compete against each other in boxing, kickboxing, MMA, fencing, Kendo, or any other competitve combat situation. Becasue its not fair to them. Despite what all those years watching Xena might have "taught" you, a female of average size simply cant generate enough power to knock out a fully grown man unless she surprises him.
You can make all the "more agile" arguments you want, and they dont hold water. If this were true, then we wouldnt need weight classes in boxing, since featherweights could use thier "agillity" to overcome heavyweights power. The truth is that even the best boxer cant "give up" more than 50 pounds, becasue the sheer size and power differential overwhelms the skill differential. This holds even more true for women as they have a naturally lower muscular/skeletal density.
Theres a reason every combat sport has weight classes and is segregated by sex. If it werent women would be dieing in the ring.
So please, take your fantasies of amazons in armor to a wank site. They have no place on a websites whose motto is "deny ignorance"

Shazam,

Since when does Life or Death battle equate to sports?

I am willing to recognise ignorance within myslef. Are you?

Against a man yes. unless of course youre talking about fire power that brings equality to a fight.




I disagree with this simply because men are also agile and stronger than woman. and what if we did let woman fight they would probably get captured and raped until they were dead. im am more than 100% against woman in combat. its much to dangeous.




In the bible it says that eve was first to eat from the forbidden tree. But it also says that the devil is the man so that seems pretty balanced.




In a couple more years going the way we're going it will be woman on top and men discriminated against. woman arent undervalued in western society at all. In western society the man is evil and the woman is all good and smart.




the point is that each gender of that tribe has their own social roles it is likewise that if a man were to do a womans job he would have the same treatment that a woman doing a mans job would have. because there is NO need for a woman to do a mans job because there is a man to do it himself, the same goes for a womans role in society.




I guess we will have to agree to disagree since we are both headstong on our own stances.

Right on!

Since those sports are based on the exact same skills that one would need to defend ones life. More to the point, if women cant comepte in the far more orderly, regulated, and less dangerous "sports" why would they be able to in a life or death struggle.
Hell take MMA, which is as close to No holds barred street fighting as your going to get legally. WHy haven't any women used thier "superior flexibility and agility" to Win the UFC?

Because its horsepukey thats why.
So tell me, can you recognise the ignorance in yourself?