I'm a man. I find it abhorrent to my sole to see men both on and off TV walking, talking and generally acting as indecisive wimps afraid to stand-up for themselves for fear of upsetting others and for fear of being prosecuted for having an "attitude." Attitude, btw women, is a word that I've most often heard used by women to describe men whom will not allow women to manipulate and bully them.

I agree with the many comments posted in this thread which state that men and the characteristics that are considered manly have been socially and legally criminalized. This criminalization is constantly reinforced by the media, judiciary, society and education system.

Don't misunderstand me, I like the fact that as a man I am now allowed to wear sun creams, deodorants and basically pamper myself without having to go to a pub to unwind. I think the changes in our society that have tended toward equality in treatment and rights among the sexes have been beneficial for both men and women. However, I think the whole concept of equality in treatment and rights has been hijacked to the point that the concept is being used to subjugate and bully men into a less than human status - we are becoming pets and jesters.

Why can women have women only nights but men not? Why is it possible for women to have women only social groups but men can not (in England, laws and regulations govern this)?

Why has the idea of fatherhood been turned into that of being an effeminate nanny? Why can't we teach our male children to be men?

Why are women allowed to have relationships with men with the sole purpose of fleecing men of their wealth? Why are women allowed to use men as a form of social security benefit yet men are prosecuted as fraudsters for the same?

Why do women (as a social group) think it acceptable to have close male friends yet they do not tolerate men having either close or distant female friends nor good male friends?

Do women not see the double standard here? It's acceptable for women to be women but not for men to be men. Brothers, be wary of that word attitude because women use it as a means of causing men to re-consider their actions toward less manly forms.

(Tongue-in-Cheek here) We men can blame women for many of our Earth's current environmental, political, social, educational and vocational problems. If women hadn't fought and gained their rights (and let's not forget that we kindly gave you those rights) then there would be fewer gas-guzzling cars creating pollution, politicians would be voted-in based on their worth not their looks, our kids would be looked after at home so they wouldn't be running about stealing and killing, our male children would benefit by smaller school classes hence more money would be spent on each child, and our wives/girlfriends wouldn't have to worry about Ms Co-Worker because Ms would be Mr Co-Worker. Life would be much simpler. Why, oh why, did women have to over complicate everything???

A friend of mine (Ukrainian) was bringing his wife back from the Ukraine to Britain. The customs officer in the Ukraine looked at her then back to him and said: "Why are you bring that back? Don't you want a younger model?" My friend replied he'd known her for 10 or 15 years. After consideration, the customs officer said to him: "Remember to give her a smack every once in while to let her know who's boss." The point is that English speaking nations are the ones suffering with women. The rest of the world is more fortunate. They understand that women are emotional, territorial creatures and should be treated as such. Sorry to break your bubbles girls but...men and women can live together provided both men and women accept their differences, realize their roles and give a little leeway every once in a while. We must stop bossing each other about and stop trying to define each others' roles. Men know how to be men; women know how to be women; and never should one try to tell the other...

Woman fetch me some ale!
Woman shine my armor!
Woman get thee in the bed!

Oh, wait a minute. Thats right.

I gotta go to sleep some time.

Never mind.

Originally posted by Merigold
I agree there may be a conspiracy against "men". The informaiton about the testerone levels are being lowered by chemicals in our products is very enlightneing..for that you get a star from me.

However, I find it hard to take anything seriously when you make comments about the " Feminist overlords"

Who may I ask are the feminine overlords?
The "elite" are men. The CEOs are men, the presidents are men, the prime ministers are men....

Which makes it all the more Ironic that they we are the ones passing the very legislation dooming us to extinction isn't it?

Tell me, did Marx have to take over russia for his ideological children to destroy it? Did he personally have to take over Romania to conquer it?
No, in fact he was dead by the time it happened. Yet without Marx, would there have been a Bolsheivek uprising and would Stalin have come to power? No.
Tell me merrigold have you looked into the laws our legislators have been passing? The ones passed in the name of "protecting women"?
Do you really think a man came up with the concepts and theories that legitimised opressing men to "uplift women"

This is why I say that Feminism is the most powerful, pernicious, and secret conspiracy of all. We aren't even aware of how deeply its twisted precepts have subverted our mental process and in fact our entire society.

I think the feminization of men...( is it so bad that hubby helps with dishes now...?) is a result of our changing lifestyles. As much as I may like my brute to pick me up over his shoulder and protect me from evil intentions the truth is he is needed to help wash the dishes, take care of the children and plan the dinner party because I'm at work.

This is precisely what I mean. The feminist myth of the "goddes female" and "brutish male" is ludicrous. And if by "the feminisation of men" you think I am referring to women in the workplace, or men helping thier wives with the chores, then the indoctrination is even deeper than I suspected.

Why does "feminine" has this negative connotation?

Huh?
Since when is "feminine" a bad thing?
This is what I mean by feminism creating a "victim complex"
No one is saying "feminine" is a bad thing.
The problem is that while no one objects to the use of the term "feminine" as an adjective of praise, whens the last time you heard manly, or masculine, used the same way?
At best, you hear "machismo" usually said with a sneering self rightousness.
Being feminine isnt bad, if your a female, or if your a male.
But if your a male who is "masculine"? Or who aspires to "Manliness"?
Then your just a "sex freak" a "brute" or a "mysogonist"

[edit on 5/6/2008 by Shazam The Unbowed]

I'm really glad to see this thread.

I've made tons of these arguments in defense of men and the importance of our particular "ways" to everyone. As different as the many cultures across the globe are, over the millenia, men -and the way we act/ think/ feel have been imperative.

But now it seems the elites have decided we don't need them anymore...

Bye-bye coconuts!

And yet we live in a misogynist society/world. How is this possible?

I'm a man. I make no apologies. I like my burgers,
my beer. I'm rough in bed. I like the wide open range
when I shoot my guns.

I also read. I am an artist. I discuss topics
of global importance. Greater mental challenges
make life more interesting.
But I never forget who I am.

Against the feminine sex I am counterpart,
and complementary.

I fight for the means of survival. I am the tool of life
to ensure that life continues. I consider
the work of my hands an act of responsibility.
I see the way things "ought to be", but deal with things
the way that they are.

I am ugly, crass, and harsh when it serves the purpose
of providing and protection. In more civilized times,
I am an intellectual. I am both impulsive and patient.

I have wept for the state of humanity. I am a soldier
rising to the fore. I will die to make this a better world.

I am man. Man is me.



[edit on 6-5-2008 by ianr5741]

I often joke about being a "Masculinist", sort of like a feminist but for men. I feel this equal rights thing has been pushed too far to the womens side of things and it's the men that are now feeling the brunt of the sexual discrimination issues. So I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I totally agree with there being a conspiracy.

I completely admit that I am not a manly-man. I can't hunt, cook, fish, I know nothing about cars, aeroplanes or building/fixing things. But I do consider myself a man.

Both my brother and father know about cars and planes and engines and various things of the sought, so if there were anything effecting me to stop me being completely and utterly masculine then surely it would be effecting them too?

While my dad does know about those things, he is also a romantic and a soft/kind hearted man, as am I. I think I gained those traits from him but didn't pick up those other traits because I simply wasn't interested in them.

I have seen a lot of very, very feminine men out there. Particularly the up and coming guys. A lot of "emo's" who consider it cool to be as girly as possible while still being straight. Generally 15 - 18 year olds who hang out infront of hungry jacks in the city, wearing mascara and their sisters jeans and crying because their lives are so hard and full of pain. Are these the guys you're talking about?

I feel I may have completely missed your point but hey, have a reply.

I just know that there are most definately still "manly-men" out there, who fight and build things and destroy things and drink beer and know about engines and the like, but the more-feminine men are becoming more popular, i feel, due to the femininst movement. Or something.

I'll probably wake up in the morning and edit this to make more sense.

Well, I suppose a woman should respond to this....a woman who loves MAN. LOL

As a woman, of 30+ years, I know what I love in a man. This comes from experience with different men. I absolutely believe there are differences between man and woman and on many levels they are not equal. I embrace that.

I know that I love a man who is a real man. No sissy allowed...(since the *P* word is not allowed)...here.

However, a man can still smell good and still have a soft side and show real emotions. He can still cry when the situation calls for it. He can still get down on the level of kids and play with them as if a he is a kid…and that includes playing with little girls when they want to have a tea party He can still cook me dinners complete with candlelight and dress nice when the event calls for it. He can tag along with me at the mall on one of many endless shopping trips...and tell me what he likes to see me in He can still endure some chic flic with me and hold my hand while doing so. He can still be silly one moment and very romantic the next. He can still admit his faults and admit when he is sick – for we like to take care of you He can still proudly stand in Victoria’s Secret after picking something out for me – all on his own. He can know my favorite things so he can shop for me all on his own. He can still bring me flowers for absolutely no reason....but just because.

And the list goes on and on and on…..


But at the same time.....he should not be afraid to stand by me and protect me from all. He should still be able to sit around with the guys and have a beer and say and do the silly stuff guys do. He should not be afraid to get dirty. He should be able to stand up for what he believes in, even if he has to spew a few choice words. He should like and embrace guy things: sports, guns, guy movies, cars, etc. He should have a strong sense of desire and need to support his family and let me stay home if I want but also let me work if I want.

And again….the list goes on and on and on…..

I know there are still real men out there. Are they a dying breed? Perhaps.
And are the feminist ridiculous? YES! As a female, I can say that!


[edit on 6-5-2008 by greeneyedleo]

I agree too. I'm not sure if it's a conspiracy but male bashing is at an all time high. It's happens so much that people don't even notice it. don't believe me that male bashing is everywhere than walk down the isle at the next hallmark card store and check out how much misandry is in them cards against men.

our male role models are gone. we need more marcinkos and chalkers and john waynes around. not tom cruises, and leonardo decraprios and soft men.

I'm now a bad guy with some women because I know how to operate a firearm, because I don't have an interest about what perfumes or clothes to wear. I tend to think more functionable not fashionable. There is a definite lack of testoterone out there. so if a guy wants a lamborghini it's because his dick is small? no sorry women sometimes men want to own a lamborghini because it's a natural extension of their male psychology. you know taking risks driving fast the love of adrenalin and danger etc...

whats wrong with rough housing? nothing it's natural in the male world. now if you even hurt someones feelings you get arrested for god knows what. Whats wrong with not shaving every day, nothing. unless you are a swimmer or a body builder going into a competition in a few weeks whats wrong with having body hair. women more and more say things like guys with hair are gross. Uhhhhh no, shaving all your body hair off to be accepted by confused women is gross. Metrosexual is an abomination to the testosterone indowed males of out species. wonder if they have ever thought that the reason they want weak men is because the women is insecure?

Face it the human species needs gruff males. it's called yin and yang. balance. see what happens when you have feminized men. it's not going to work out.

also, our new male actors and celebrities are getting pussier and pussier. It's like they all have to be waifish, blue eyed metrosexual shemen. leonardo decaprio's of the acting world. I could bitchslap that guy halfway to the moon and I doubt he's offer me a serious challenge back. his pussy lawyer might but not him. And the same goes for tom cruise. you're a wannabe man too. Pretty boys are rarely men thats why the term boy is the suffix to their names not men. men aren't pretty, they're handsome.

Women in america are by and large just as confused about men these days as are the mammas boys raised exclusively by women without a REAL male role model to understand what it means to be male or to even grow up into one.

also, just because you don't want to kowtow to what your girlfriend fiance whatever says doesn't make you immature. I hear it all the time. when is my man going to grow up and do everything I tell him. how bout real men don't do what you tell them. it's called leadership. it's what males do.

So there's a conspiracy against men?

Who are the conspirators?

Women?

Or are men conspiring against themselves?

The fact is that the human race is evolving, adapting to the altered conditions in its mostly self-created environment. Great brawling slabs of beef and butter, oozing beer and testosterone at every pore, no longer enjoy the selective advantage they once did. In modern technological society (that's the environment we live in), their brainless aggression, their violent status contests, their mammoth-killing skills no longer win the day.

They no longer cut quite the same dash with the ladies, either. This sort of man is being selected out because, far from being an asset to his genes, his aggression and instinctive irresponsibility have made him a liability. His vestigial usefulness as manual labour, which has allowed him and his fellows to survive as an underclass for the last two hundred years or so, is now at an end. He has served us well, but his work is done.

The very recent liberation of women -- a direct result of mechanization and universal education -- is as significant a step in the evolution of humanity than any that has been taken since the Upper Pleistocene. One of its consequences will be to eliminate Muscle Man. In the centuries and millennia to come, few will mourn his departure.

There's no conspiracy, just a lot of evolutionarily obsolete chaps going not quietly into that good night.

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
Well, I suppose a woman should respond to this....a woman who loves MAN. LOL

greeneyedleo, I know we both got off on the wrong foot, possibly because I misinterperted some of your statements, and possibly becasue your avatar represents the absolute cruxification of one of my favorite female superheroes, either way, You seem to be missing my points.
So let me start over.

However, a man can still smell good and still have a soft side and show real emotions. He can still cry when the situation calls for it. He can still get down on the level of kids and play with them as if a he is a kid…and that includes playing with little girls when they want to have a tea party He can still cook me dinners complete with candlelight and dress nice when the event calls for it. He can tag along with me at the mall on one of many endless shopping trips...and tell me what he likes to see me in He can still endure some chic flic with me and hold my hand while doing so. He can still be silly one moment and very romantic the next. He can still admit his faults and admit when he is sick – for we like to take care of you He can still proudly stand in Victoria’s Secret after picking something out for me – all on his own. He can know my favorite things so he can shop for me all on his own. He can still bring me flowers for absolutely no reason....but just because.

Understand I don't disagree per se. However my problem is that nowadays a man who doesnt use colonge all the time or who does work hard enough to stink to high heaven at the end of the day, and isnt ashamed of it; is considered a "brute". The prolem isnt that men cant have tea parties with thier daughtters, its the unspoken message than any man who doesnt like tea parties on their own merits is a "uncultured knave". Likewise the man who doesnt cook gourmet organic vegan food for his wife each night is seen as deficient. Its not that anyone is saying a man can't have a soft side, its the implication that any man who isnt all softside is a "macho prick".
In other words it has become the very mirror image of the world that women once wanted to escape. Early feminist's claimed that the feminine was demonised and made out to be inferior. Thier solution? Spend the next 70 years demonising the masculine in the exact same way. The difference being that Male guilt over all "our crimes" made us as incapable of fighting back as a lack of property rights made woman at one time, if not moreso.

But at the same time.....he should not be afraid to stand by me and protect me from all. He should still be able to sit around with the guys and have a beer and say and do the silly stuff guys do. He should not be afraid to get dirty. He should be able to stand up for what he believes in, even if he has to spew a few choice words. He should like and embrace guy things: sports, guns, guy movies, cars, etc. He should have a strong sense of desire and need to support his family and let me stay home if I want but also let me work if I want.

Wow you really aren't a feminist. My bad.
Heres where I see the problem. Both men and women have now been indoctrinated to believe that any man who does want to protect you, or any other woman, is actually trying to "possess"you.
Its the belief, now made into law, that any man who does spend time with guys drinking beer is negleting you and your needs.
Its the perception that any man who likes to get dirty is a pig, a redneck, or a bum.
Its the idea that if he is into cars, its because "he compensating"; if he is into guy movies its because hes lowborw and hyperviolent; if he does want to let you stay home, or god forbid has his own point of view on whether or not you should, or even worse tries to convince you one way or the other, then hes obviously a woman hating caveman who wants to keep you barefoot, pregnant, and illiterate in the kithcen.

And are the feminist ridiculous? YES! As a female, I can say that!

And that, is precisely the problem. It shouldnt matter whether you are female or not. Everyone should be allowed, no screw that, encouraged to say it, becasue untill more of us do, the rest will be afraid to even think it.



[edit on 5/6/2008 by Shazam The Unbowed]