America is not lazy...we are just overstressed and brainwashed from work and family and trying to cram 5 different lifetimes into one because TV says we need to be cool and interesting. I honestly think most Americans would try to "fix" the govt, but we fear more about the economy than electing an inspirational and creative thinking leader. We pick the middle of the road in every presidential election, so we get very similar leadership. There's no conspiracy...it's all about human nature and our "me first" attitude that has caused all these problems.


Wow I think you hit that right on the head!!

Originally posted by Earthscum

Why would all this happen? Because of the Patriot act. This is how our freedoms are being misted away. How free is it to be able to get rid of a neighbor by simply pointing and yelling "TERRORIST!!!"? Seems like freedom, until it happens to you. Maybe it was because of the racist down the street who doesn't like your dark-skinned friends. Maybe it's some overly paranoid old lady who sleeps with the TV tuned to MSNBC or CNN, and thinks everyone is a terrorist. What's next, new racist nation? How far will it go before there is a revolt? I garantee you'd think differently if you get pulled over and interrogated just because you don't follow 'fashion norms'.

The Patriot Act is not set in stone. It actually runs out this year. Congress has to renew it or make it permanent. Look, I'm not saying things are perfect. There are alot of things we have to change. That is why it is important to participate. We have to stay on top of the government. We've gotta keep a finger in their face, because if we leave it up to them we'd all have a 3 pm curfew and our homes would be our prison.

First things first, hold Bush and his folk accountable for the drafting the patriot act. That will ensure that the next president knows he'll be out on his ass if he tries the same thing. After all this is a democracy no single party has a monopoly on power. The people control who stays and who goes. If Bush isn't held accountable the rest of them will keep following behind him like the lackys they are because it's politically profitable. If he goes even the conservatives will change because they will see where the people stand and get in line with us so they can keep their jobs.

Terrorsists are not funded by the govt. C'mon...so we set up the whole invasion of Afganistan by Russia in 1980 and the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq so that we can base US military forces in Saudi Arabia which then later on spurs on supposed USA govt funded and USA-hating Arabs who then years later bomb the WTC and then later blow it up with airplanes??? All so that George Bush can turn the US into a totalitarian state??? Crazy...

Not the government, most conspiracy theorists see most of this as being the result of extra-national secret socieities with links to terrorism. The conspiratorial view of history explains that the Russian revolution (and the first world war that caused it) was influenced heavily by secret socieities such as the Illuminati, and that they essentially directed the cold war from then on. Key players in the 'conflict', ambassadors, diplomats, even leaders on both sides of the divide had links to the secret societies, so it may be possible that yes, indeed, the whole of the Afghanistan thing may indeed have been a set up as you suggest, not just for totalitarianism in the USA, but all over the world.

The USA has always been a tool of these secret societies, and if the USA becomes a totallitarian puppet state to the secret societies, as the Bush familly will ensure, then the New World Order will be much easier to achieve.

Originally posted by lordlefty

Not the government, most conspiracy theorists see most of this as being the result of extra-national secret socieities with links to terrorism. The conspiratorial view of history explains that the Russian revolution (and the first world war that caused it) was influenced heavily by secret socieities such as the Illuminati, and that they essentially directed the cold war from then on. Key players in the 'conflict', ambassadors, diplomats, even leaders on both sides of the divide had links to the secret societies, so it may be possible that yes, indeed, the whole of the Afghanistan thing may indeed have been a set up as you suggest, not just for totalitarianism in the USA, but all over the world.

The USA has always been a tool of these secret societies, and if the USA becomes a totallitarian puppet state to the secret societies, as the Bush familly will ensure, then the New World Order will be much easier to achieve.

You were doing real good there, until the end. It makes little difference who is in the WH. Bush or Kerry...same master. Clinton was just as much controlled by "them" as the Bushes.
I think they just let the parties alternate every now and then to make us feel better.

Originally posted by Earthscum
Personally I think throwing everything out and reverting back to the original constitution would be the best step in the right direction. Start over. Our constitution doesn't even exist anymore because of all the laws they have piled on top of it. It's crap.

I can think of one problem here, Earthscum, isn't it an undenialable truth that many, if not all, of our Founding Fathers were FreeMasons? And that the Constitution is by and large written by FreeMasons to further their agenda?
So, how would that help our country?

So in essence, if I get this right...every US leader is controlled by some secrect society. Sorry, the special interest lobbying groups are the ones who do this. Not one story has ever come out from a cabinet member, senator, judge, intern, mailman, secrect service person, or anyone else I know of that has said that "it's all a scam, and this group is doing this". Heck even UFO stories have been leaked and commented on by high ranking officials...but not a whisper of a secrect society.

I wish people would realize the cultural dynamics in America are the cause of where we are at. Big money lobbyists, an overworked population that has no time for politics, and the economic need for a middle of the road canidate year after year is why everyone seems the same and "cookie cutter" like.

It's good to be paranoid because we all know that half the time we are being "BS'd" by the media, politicians, our families, our bosses, and even this board. So I'm not saying not to believe what you want because a paranoid's intensity usually uncovers some lies...it does serve a purpose...the only problem is that they take a few facts and make grandiose theories, instead of using all the facts to come up with a plausible theory.

I'm neither a democrat or republican...if I had a party, it would be a mix of scientists and spiritualists who went by logic and human needs to guide a country. The US's current problem is that we have class warfare constantly between the rich and poor...we will never unite as a people.

Originally posted by Earthscum

Personally I think throwing everything out and reverting back to the original constitution would be the best step in the right direction. Start over. Our constitution doesn't even exist anymore because of all the laws they have piled on top of it. It's crap.

That would be nice, but the extra laws are there now because there are too many people in the country and less and less natural resources. The bigger and closer the population gets, the more freedoms that have to be sacrificed to keep us in harmony.

It's like traffic: the more people, the more roads; the more roads, the more rules and stoplights that are put in place to keep us from killing each other. We treat our politicians as the hiway patrol because we feel politicians are always hindering us in some way but they are needed to maintain order.

That's why I'm for population control and only 2 Billion people on the planet at one time. The more people you have, the fewer freedoms we will have.

And just wait until nanotechnology blooms!!! Get ready for the ultimate social controls when some terrorist can release a reproducing micro machine that can create or cause disease and be almost impossibe to detect. Nuclear war is not the concern...nanotechnology and bioengineering are the two things that are going to wipe us out.

people need to get off their assses and do something about it then. instead of giving your power away,

[Edited on 29-2-2004 by NaturalDisaster]

Personally I think throwing everything out and reverting back to the original constitution would be the best step in the right direction. Start over. Our constitution doesn't even exist anymore because of all the laws they have piled on top of it. It's crap.

The constitution to which you refer is more than 200 years old, and cannot best represent the interests and issues of people today. Besides, it was made by freemasons anyway.

Originally posted by Boogie

I'm neither a democrat or republican...if I had a party, it would be a mix of scientists and spiritualists who went by logic and human needs to guide a country. The US's current problem is that we have class warfare constantly between the rich and poor...we will never unite as a people.

You just described me as well. Alot of the 'bad' humans aren't really bad, they are just confused, or have been brainwashed from birth to believe one thing. Scientists and spiritualists based cabinet would be really nice. These are people that could do good for the world... alot better than someone who really doesn't know squat about life or consequences. Most of the people running the show have the mentality that 'we can spare a couple thousand people's lives, as long as we get this tyrant!', which is wrong. The american government seems more worried about what is happenning all over the world than taking care of us, so we are left to our own devices. When the government sees this, they get all uptight and decide that they need to govern us with more control. If you open your eyes, alot of the crap that is done in 'the interest of the people' are done because of a couple whiners. Of course, when the general public sees a new law, they accept it under the terms that 'it was put in by the government, so it must have a valid reason', such as marijuana laws.

Alot of America is so self-centered that they WILL walk all over you if they have the chance. A few make bad names for many. The mentality that is pushed is 'you have to work hard to reach the top', which isn't totally unreasonable. What is unreasonable is that the 'weak' are pushed aside and trampled because the 'strong' have no compassion. The 'strong' have never been in a 'weak' position because they would never let it happen. The 'strong' were brought up knowing one thing: "You will never make it to the top if you let people push you around". Who doesn't get pushed around? The bully who is doing the pushing. We have bullies amongst us, and they are vastly outnumbered... but the bullies are the ones who are in the media and in positions of power, and are the ones that the rest of the world sees. Now we have a case of peer pressure. Now we have people being asses just because the people in high places were and are being used as role models.

Who is my role model? The entire world. I see bad things happen to good people, I learn and make sure I don't do those bad things. I see good people turn bad, and I don't want to be like that. I see bad people do good things, and I try to do good things. My morals and outlooks on life change slightly every day, but I still try to be the best person I can, not the most successful, and I try to let that influence waft out to everyone I come in contact with. I would LOVE to see the world with just that mentality: use EVERYONE as your role model. One person can't do it alone, so every day I try to get more people into the trend. This is how I am fighting back, even on a small scale. Influence spreads quickly, but so does corruption. Hopefully my influence has spread to some of you.

Originally posted by Earthscum
Who is my role model? The entire world. I see bad things happen to good people, I learn and make sure I don't do those bad things. I see good people turn bad, and I don't want to be like that. I see bad people do good things, and I try to do good things. My morals and outlooks on life change slightly every day, but I still try to be the best person I can, not the most successful, and I try to let that influence waft out to everyone I come in contact with. I would LOVE to see the world with just that mentality: use EVERYONE as your role model. One person can't do it alone, so every day I try to get more people into the trend. This is how I am fighting back, even on a small scale. Influence spreads quickly, but so does corruption. Hopefully my influence has spread to some of you.

Beautifully said, Earthscum! I have lived by the philosophy, Teach by example, for most of my life. I always try to learn from the mistakes of others as well as myself. I have always thought it strange that people inevitably repeat each other's mistakes, even when they know what happened before. Everything, good and bad, that happens in the world, can teach us something which can be applied to our own lives. It is our inability or refusal to understand that principle that allows history to continue repeating itself.

It is not that hard to see the path America is on, when you look at what led to the fall of previous great nations and empires.

Here are some of the quotes spoken by elitists and powerful men with dreams of controlling the world:

"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, destroy their ruggedness.Get control of all means of publicity and thereby: Get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities. Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance. Destroy the peoples faith in their natural leaders by holding up the latter to ridicule, contempt and obloquy. Always preach true democracy but seize power as fast and as ruthlessly as possible. Encourage government extravagance, destroy its credit, produce fear with rising prices, inflation and general discontent. Foment unnecessary strikes in vital industries, encourage civil disorders and foster a soft and lenient attitude on the part of government towards such disorders. By specious argument cause the breakdown of the old moral virtues: honesty, sobriety, continence, faith in the pledged word, ruggedness. Cause the registration of all firearms on some pretext, with the view of confiscating them and leaving the population defenseless." - Vladimir Ilich Lenin

"A man will fight harder for his interests than for his rights." Bonaparte, Napoleon

"[One of the most important aspects of achieving communist control is the] centralization of credit
in the hands of the state, by means of a [centralized] national bank with state capital and an exclusive
monopoly." -- Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.
How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." - Julius Caesar

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."
Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991

"Today the path to total dictatorship in the United States can be laid by strictly legal means, unseen and unheard by Congress, the President, or the people. We have a well-organized political action group in this country, determined to destroy our Constitution and establish a one-party state. It has a foothold within our Government, and its own propaganda apparatus. One may call this group by many names. Some people call it socialism, some collectivism. I prefer to call it 'democratic centralism.' The important point to remember about this group is not its ideology but its organization. It is a dynamic, aggressive, elite corps, forcing its way through every opening, to make a breach for a collectivist one-party state. It operates secretly, silently, continuously to transform our Government without our suspecting the change is underway. This secret revolutionary corps understands well the power to influence the people by an elegant form of brainwashing. We see this, for example, in the innocent use of words like 'democracy' in place of 'representative government.' " - Senator William Jenner of Indiana Feb. 23, 1954

If America doesn't learn from the mistakes of the past soon, we will be just another nation that should have been a great testament to what individual freedom can achieve, but was destroyed by it's addiction to money and power, instead.

Originally posted by IMMORTAL
The Twin Towers and the innocent lives lost in them does not even compare to the amount of lives lost on the "war on terrorism" that the American Government is doing.

on a realted note- the morning of the columbine shootings....innocent lives lost...hmmm.....that was also the morning we blew the # out of kuwait....eye for an eye i guess?

the reason so many people will blindly support america is the same reason they will blindly support a religion- theyve been taught it, grown up with it, blah blah blah.

but this is no excuse for ignorance.

and this is no ecuse for the american dream (AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Well, first, you made a generalization. Not ALL people in America are as ignorant as you are saying. Well, it may be true, a lot of U.S. citizens ARE ignorant to the facts..but not ALL. I usually take offense to statements like that, because, like a real democracy, Bush can be voted OUT. Personally, I hope John Kerry wins in the upcoming prez. elections. America as a country is not evil, it is the people who have ran it throughout history who ARE. Get rid of the evil leaders, you have America back to what it was MEANT to be - A signal of freedom, fairness, and democracy, in a violent world. In my opinion, we need to take back AMERIKA.

Amen to that.

EDIT: Slow down Scat! I don't want to turn this into a religious debate, which would be thread-jacking, but wait a second. Not ALL people follow a religion because they have grown up with, true, some people WILL do this, simply because of ignorance. However, some people, myself included, do not do this. I follow Catholicism because I love God. I love Jesjuah (as Mikro says - I took a liking to the version of Jesus, dunno if I spelt it right) I love God, like I said. However, I am a Catholic, but I do NOT agree with some of the things the Catholic and Christian Church in whole does. I do not agree with the Pope on some things, but as a Christian, you are a Christian if you believe Jesus is the Son of Man. I do. I don't agree with some of things the humans who run Christianity do. But, if you love God, why need the conspiracy-addicted humans who run it....

-wD

[Edited on 29-2-2004 by WeBDeviL]

Originally posted by Boogie
So in essence, if I get this right...every US leader is controlled by some secrect society. Sorry, the special interest lobbying groups are the ones who do this. Not one story has ever come out from a cabinet member, senator, judge, intern, mailman, secrect service person, or anyone else I know of that has said that "it's all a scam, and this group is doing this". Heck even UFO stories have been leaked and commented on by high ranking officials...but not a whisper of a secrect society.

I wish people would realize the cultural dynamics in America are the cause of where we are at. Big money lobbyists, an overworked population that has no time for politics, and the economic need for a middle of the road canidate year after year is why everyone seems the same and "cookie cutter" like.

It's good to be paranoid because we all know that half the time we are being "BS'd" by the media, politicians, our families, our bosses, and even this board. So I'm not saying not to believe what you want because a paranoid's intensity usually uncovers some lies...it does serve a purpose...the only problem is that they take a few facts and make grandiose theories, instead of using all the facts to come up with a plausible theory.

You have some good thoughts there, for example, the MONEY does rule the country, and the people who are behind the money rule.
The media is telling us what they want us to hear. The schools are teaching us what they want us to hear.

...but not a whisper of a secrect society.

Well, that would be why it's a secret society, no??? I don't think clerks interns and mailmen would be in on it, but many are.
People get killed for going against the plans of these people. You do remember JFK??? And Lincoln? RFK? King? To name a few.
I do not think that I and those who feel like I do are paranoid, but aware.

...but not a whisper of a secrect society.

Well, that would be why it's a secret society, no??? I don't think clerks interns and mailmen would be in on it, but many are.
People get killed for going against the plans of these people. You do remember JFK??? And Lincoln? RFK? King? To name a few.
I do not think that I and those who feel like I do are paranoid, but aware.

Ha! Fair enough. I do not beleive in the global power of secrect societies, but I do believe in secrects. Everywhere there are "favors" being done and espionage. Even at work you have the office politics where so and so is sure to get promoted because he goes to the boss's church or has scratched the boss's back somehow...it can be interepreted as a "secret society".


Saying paranoid is probably not the right word...nor do I think aware is. I would say intense scrutiny works best.
I went to college and we all knew the fraternities had their secrets and cheated in many ways, but to do this on a global scale would require more resources than I think is possible. I don't trust the government, but I do not think it is evil or bent on setting up a police state. Militant Arabs just plain hate westerners...I don't believe the US has anything to do with supporting terrorists so they can attack the US.


Neither of us will convince each other so I say good luck, we are all tools towards the truth...

Ah, the ire of misplaced youth! you gotta love it!

See the way it looks to me is this, there is a conspiracy for and against. Thus, one must decide the lesser of two evils. The decision is clear to me. Keep America Strong!

Any other option will lead to annihiliation of many more people.