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Originally posted by The_Modulus
Entertaining the premise that Jesus was a sorcerer, how do you explain the fact that in modern times such sorcery cannot, or is not, performed? [...]
Do you have any examples of individuals in modern times who display the 'sorcerous' powers displayed by Jesus?
In the New Testament, Christ sent out His apostles to heal and to "cast out devils" (Matt. 10:8, Luke 10:17-20). Christ Himself often expels demons from the possessed (Mark 1:23-27; Luke 4:33-35, 9:43; Matt. 10:1; Mark 16:17; Matt. 7:22). The New Testament, however, rejected popular uses of magic incantations and rites to expel the satanic powers from people, because they took advantage of superstitious religiosity (Acts 19:13).
Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Jesus appears to have been someone who was initiated into some kabbalah-esque judaic mystery cult, and then decided to go around blabbing to the people.
Originally posted by Nohup
I see Christianity as a mystical cult that has over the centuries been modified to be more mainstream.
Originally posted by Nohup
I understand that science is having a difficult time working with the fact that consciousness can only be removed from the equation in limited circumstances, like when you're building a bridge. It can't be separated when you're talking about the fundamental nature of reality.
Consciousness is necessary for a collapse of the quantum wave function. Without consciousness, everything remains virtual. And each time we think of something or move, it begins as a conscious and active manipulation out of essentially nothing of actual energy and matter in our brains. That's pretty close to the definition of magic.
Originally posted by Nohup
Some of the stories are allegories, some are misinterpretations of events. Some are literary conveniences.
Originally posted by jpm1602
Nohup, thank you for the very thought provoking thread. Question, if there are demons (which I believe) are there not also angels? Is it also not more probable Jesus gathered his strength from God as opposed to demons?
Originally posted by meremortal
reply to post by Nohup
st patrick wasn't irish he was welsh
Originally posted by banyan
so jesus could not be god-ultimate, which is what christians believe he is, by your theory...correct?
Originally posted by banyan
so jesus could not be god-ultimate, which is what christians believe he is, by your theory...correct?
Originally posted by Nohup
Even Jesus himself didn't describe himself as divine, only a Son of Man, and a pathway to salvation. I think the confusion of divinity probably arose when he was embraced by Constantine and the Romans, who loved to deify their emperors and other worthy folks, mortals all. Some literalists failed to see the discinction.
Deity Questioned
Deity Affirmed
Satan "If you are Son" (Mt 4:3)
God "This is My Son" (Mt 3:17)
Jew's "If you are Christ" (Jn 10:24)
Jesus "I Am" (Jn 10:36)
Soldiers "If you are King" (Lk 23:37)
Pilate "This is the King" (Lk 23:38)
Some at cross "If you are Son" (Mt 27:40)
Centurion "Truely He was Son" (Mt 27:54)
Thief #1 "If you are Christ" (Lk 23:39)
Thief #2 "He has done no wrong" (Lk 23:40)
Thomas "I will not believe unless" (Jn 20:27)
Thomas "My Lord and my God" (Jn 20:28)
IV. Jesus Is Divine In Substance
A. Col 2:9: the fullness of deity
B. Hob 1:3: exact representation of His nature
C. Jn 14:8-10 He who sees Me sees the Father.
Ignatius (30-107 A.D.), who was born before Christ died, consistently spoke of the deity of Jesus Christ. Consider a few examples: In To the Ephesians, and other letters, we find references such as the following: "Jesus Christ our God"; "who is God and man"; "received knowledge of God, that is, Jesus Christ"; "for our God, Jesus the Christ"; "for God was manifest as man"; "Christ, who was from eternity with the Father"; "from God, from Jesus Christ"; "from Jesus Christ, our God"; "Our God, Jesus Christ"; "suffer me to follow the example of the passion of my God"; "Jesus Christ the God" and "Our God Jesus Christ."4 The fact that Ignatius was not rebuked, nor branded as teaching heresy by any of the churches or Christian leaders he sent letters to proves that the early church, long before 107 A.D., accepted the deity of Christ.
Polycarp (69-155 A.D.) possibly spoke of "Our Lord and God Jesus Christ."5
[The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, Chapter 6, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson (eds.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325 (Vol. 1 The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus)]
Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.) wrote of Jesus, "who,… being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God."6 In his Dialogue with Trypho, he stated that "God was born from a virgin" and that Jesus was "worthy of worship" and of being "called Lord and God."7
Tatian (110-172 A.D.), the early apologist wrote, "We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales when we announce that God was born in the form of man."8
Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.), wrote that Jesus was "perfect God and perfect man"; "not a mere man…but was very God"; and that "He is in Himself in His own right…God, and Lord, and King Eternal" and spoke of "Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour and King"9
Tertullian (145-220 A.D.), said of Jesus "Christ is also God" because "that which has come forth from God [in the virgin birth] is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one…in His birth, God and man united."10
Caius (180-217 A.D.), a Roman Presbyter, wrote of the universal Christian attestation to the deity of Christ in his refutation of Artemon, who maintained that Christ was only a man. Note that before 217 A.D., Caius appealed to much earlier writers, all of whom taught Christ’s deity: "Justin and Miltiades, and Tatian and Clement, and many others,—who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the psalms, too, and hymns of brethren, which have been written from the beginning by the faithful, celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him…. [This] doctrine of the Church, then, has been proclaimed so many years ago,…"11
Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-265 A.D.) declared in On the Trinity, that "All [the persons] are one nature, one essence, one will, and are called the Holy Trinity; and these also are names subsistent, one nature in three persons, and one genus [kind]."12
Novatian (210-280 A.D.) wrote in his On The Trinity, of Jesus being truly a man but that "He was also God according to the Scriptures…. Scripture has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God."13 (Note then, that in the 200’s we already had discourses on the Trinity.)
Athanasius (293-373 A.D.), the keen defender of New Testament teaching against the early Arian heresy, which taught that Jesus Christ was not God, declared of Jesus, "He always was and is God and Son" and "He who is eternally God,… also became man for our sake."14
Alexander of Alexandria spoke in reference to Jesus of "his highest and essential divinity" and that he was "an exact and identical image of the Father."15
Eusebius of Caesarea stated that "the Son of God bears no resemblance to originated creatures but…is alike in every way only to the Father who has begotten [Him] and that he is not from any other hypostasis and substance but from the Father."16
Augustine declared that Christians "…believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, maker and ruler of the whole creation: that Father is not Son, nor Holy Spirit Father or Son; but a Trinity of mutually related Persons, and a unity of equal essence" and that therefore, "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit God; and all together are one God."17
Originally posted by Nohup
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Besides, as I noted above, right there in Mark 3, Jesus himself admits that he was using demons and demon power, not angels, to do his miraculous supernatural stuff. The whole "divide and conquer" thing.
You ain't callin' Jesus a liar, are you?
Originally posted by Clearskies
You ain't callin' Jesus a liar, are you?
I'm thinking you may be or just being willfully ignorant.
Someone already explained to you that Jeshua was explaining to his disciples that satan wouldn't logically cast out his own 'brethren' spirits! Or else his kingdom would be divided.
Originally posted by Clearskies
Bless you!
What Jesus do you preach and witness for?
Mine is the one that died for our sins was raised the third day and even now is at the right hand of The Father!
I'm a Woman, not a man.