Jesus's crucifixion not politically motivated, but to stop a powerful sorcerer/necromancer?, page 3
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reply posted on 20-3-2008 @ 08:36 AM by marg6043
reply to post by The_Modulus


Well it seems that with so many bible interpretations the Hebrew word for Demon can be applied depending of the interpretation..

Passage results have over one hundred bible translations and this what I found,

a. Leviticus 17:3 The Hebrew word can include both male and female.
b. Leviticus 17:5 Traditionally peace offerings
c. Leviticus 17:7 Or demons

www.biblegateway.com...-NIV-3243

Deuteronomy 18:10 & 11Speaks of this. It says........." Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchgraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist who consults the dead. "

Deuteronomy 32:17 (New International Version)

They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—
gods they had not known,
gods that recently appeared,
gods your fathers did not fear.

OLD TESTAMENT SURVEY

Compiled by: Gary W. Summers

spiritualperspectives.org...

11:15 In Addition to the Golden Calves Jeroboam Worshipped Demons.
Psalms 95:5 - 106:37 is in reference of name of demons used.
www.biblicist.org...

In a. Leviticus 17:7 the word 'devil' is the translation of the Hebrew word 'sair', meaning a 'goat' or 'satyr'.(Isaiah 13:21; 34:14), alluding to the word 'daemons', the objects of idolatrous worship among the heathen.
www.christiankeys.ca...

I guess it all comes to what version of bible you read



[edit on 20-3-2008 by marg6043]


reply posted on 20-3-2008 @ 08:55 AM by The_Modulus
reply to post by marg6043


Thanks for that Deuteronomy insight! I must have overlooked that on the previous page

Deuteronomy 18 is particularly interesting, although I'm sure you could interpret that as the mere attempt at sorcery and witchcraft etc. Just as God and Jesus denounce the practice of idol worshiping, not because an actual god is being worshiped, but because it detracts from the truth that there is only one God who is He. Therefore the passage may be denouncing the attempts at such things, which I'm sure took place.


reply posted on 20-3-2008 @ 09:27 AM by marg6043
reply to post by The_Modulus


To tell you the truth I never seen this angle of the bible until this thread was posted, this is actually the first time I do research on this topic and with so many sites giving their reviews of meaning of passages in references to demons is a ton of information to chose from and to research.

I will take my time and read more into this subject,I find it very interesting.



reply posted on 20-3-2008 @ 02:41 PM by Nohup
Originally posted by The_Modulus
Entertaining the premise that Jesus was a sorcerer, how do you explain the fact that in modern times such sorcery cannot, or is not, performed? [...]
Do you have any examples of individuals in modern times who display the 'sorcerous' powers displayed by Jesus?


That is a very interesting question and one that I wonder about myself. I see a couple of different answers possible. The first and most obvious answer is that there really is no such thing as demons or sorcery, and the Biblical accounts are all misinterpretations and accounts provided by people with only the knowledge of their time. We modern folk know there are no such things, but it was common and accepted knowledge at the time that there absolutely are such things. Of course, this makes large chunks of the Bible inaccurate, which, depending on your point of view is problematic in itself. It also calls into question thousands of years of other accounts from other cultures that describe similar things. But, hey, people in the past were all ignorant slobs, right?

Another possible explanation is that whatever knowledge there was of demons and how to handle them was suppressed or hidden through the years because of persecution. Ultimately, the specific details of how to conjure and control demons were lost. We have a few clues, mostly from fragments of surviving public works, but the specific knowledge is either lost or hidden by individuals or very small secret societies. Some of this knowledge may have also been incorporated (possibly with misinterpretations of the symbology) into the practice of alchemy, which confused it even more.

That leads us to another explanation, and that is there are actually active sorcerers running around in the world with the knowledge and the power to conjure and control demons and their power, but they are extremely well hidden. I can't prove a negative, so I can't say for sure that this isn't happening. It could all be happening in the basements or the Bohemian Groves of the world's elite. Or in churches and synagogues attended by a rare few initiates.

Because of the history of persecution, fear from the general population, and possibly direct conflict with agencies of the Vatican, Muslim extremists, or other churches, it wouldn't be the dumbest thing to keep this stuff as secret as possible. I don't think people would take kindly to Richard Branson or George Bush, Sr., or somebody like that to announce to the press that they owe a lot of their success and power to Beelzebub, Kronos, Iameth, or some other dutiful demon. That might be really bad for business.


reply posted on 20-3-2008 @ 05:21 PM by newday
Originally posted by Nohup

I see Christianity as a mystical cult that has over the centuries been modified to be more mainstream.



The Christian version of the Christ bears no resemblance to the Messiah described in the bible

Even the Jesus presented in the Christian religion in many ways is contrary to the Jesus presented in the bible.

For this reason and because of my experience with people who claim christianity as their religion, I see Christianity as the work of the Anti-Christ, or that is to say I feel the ideas Christians have as a whole of what and who Jesus is, are Anti-Christ.

Originally posted by Nohup

I understand that science is having a difficult time working with the fact that consciousness can only be removed from the equation in limited circumstances, like when you're building a bridge. It can't be separated when you're talking about the fundamental nature of reality.

Consciousness is necessary for a collapse of the quantum wave function. Without consciousness, everything remains virtual. And each time we think of something or move, it begins as a conscious and active manipulation out of essentially nothing of actual energy and matter in our brains. That's pretty close to the definition of magic.



Do you think consciousness is trapped in a quantum paradox?

The point is I agree with you only it is not our consciousness that is manifesting our reality a greater consciousness exists from which all consciousness emanates, as a greater reality exists from which all reality emanates.

Originally posted by Nohup

Some of the stories are allegories, some are misinterpretations of events. Some are literary conveniences.



All prophecy is literal in the realist sense because it is a manifestation of supernatural power.

The Messiah is real all of the events, the walking on the water, the healing of the man born blind, the raising of Lazarus from the dead, these events occurred just as today such things occur.

This is the turning of the children of men their goings to and fro.

All the great religions began as true movements of God, driven by spiritual forces, in word and in power, bringing people together for a purpose and a benefit through revelation knowledge and wisdom.

Only the individual souls involved within the movement have discernment of the heart, they leave their place to find the Spirit that calls,

Those without eyes that see or ears that hear, stand in the discretion of their high place bewildered at the raising up of the low and foolish, surging up as waters of a great moving current.

Covetous men without conscience who think more than they ought of the flesh, saying within themselves, let us dam up the torrent of waters lest we be consumed and all our gain we have cleverly gotten ourselves be lost.

Men of the carnal mind, whitewashed sepulchers, not of the spirit, they position themselves through politics, as overseers and leaders and seize control of the flowing and gartering together of the peoples, damming up the rivers of water, for to dip their cup, as they have done with all the governments and systems of this world.

After the passing of the generations the true nature of the movement is forgotten, the getting up of the dead, the healing of the sick, it all becomes fables and stories.

The understanding of how their forgathers manifested spiritual power is lost to them, God is no longer at liberty to show Himself, the residue of truth is left to religion

This is the turning of the children of men their goings to and fro.

Religion is a denial of the power of God and the spiritual, it is only an outwardly form of godliness, it is a devolution in our nature, there is no holy power available to give those who convert to its way.

Religion devoid of power inevitably gives birth to science.

Science is the attempt by man to regain full human capacity through natural means, where absent the spirit, knowledge and reason are the highest from of empowerment

This is the turning of the children of men their goings to and fro.

True sorcery is revisiting the communion of men and is even now in the world.

The hour is approaching the time of a new epoch, a day when the hearts of all peoples regardless of class or religion, belief or unbelief, will be laid bare and naked, the thick skin will burn the stiff neck will snap, a great shining of the light of God will enliven the soul of all living things upon the face of the earth.

Brothers will be divided, all will be divided, one sees freedom, one slavery, none separated shall find reconciliation together again.

Some will seek understanding and regain spiritual empowerment and liberation over the flesh, some will seek to return to the comfort of what was their life of only body and mind before the day of revelation, they will find sufficient explanations to allow in themselves a place and time of familiarity and solace.


reply posted on 20-3-2008 @ 07:24 PM by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Nohup


It is interesting that the word sorcery is used in connection with your text. Although, I believe that Jesus did indeed use the demons to his satisfaction - I also believe that he used the Holy Spirit from Jah to perform his miracles. Those eye-witnesses who saw his works, of course being corporal, would view them as fearful or scary, unfamiliar and demonic.

It is my belief & experience that the spirit from Jah is far more powerful than that of the demons. The demons acknowledge it also. James wrote: "You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder."

I have seen the power of both and can testify that Jah's power is awe inspiring. The angels act quite differently than the demons and it is usually easy to determine who is acting upon ones life. Actually, once one adapts or gains experience with demons it is easy to see their childishness and rudimentary abilities. They tend to be a lot of puff with the use of fear to inspire mortals into allegience.

It is my experience that Satan is only about 12-14 years of age - emotionally. I view him as a late stage addict whose growth stopped when he succumbed to power, control and rebellion. As I have said before, I truly believe that there is a conspiracy in heavenly congress! One that is being revealed on deeper levels now.

I most appreciate your thoughts!


reply posted on 20-3-2008 @ 07:58 PM by Bashibozkedi
Originally posted by meremortal
reply to post by Nohup


st patrick wasn't irish he was welsh



Not what I was told. Apparently St Patrick lived on one of the Forts on Hadrian's Wall( a Roman wall in Northern England, built to keep the Scots out).

His father was the commander of this fort and came from Dalmatia (now Croatia,Bosnia,Serbia).The Romans used people from one part of their empire to police another part.

This fort still exists and can be seen today.St Patrick was kidnapped by Irish pirates who came up a river by boat. He was taken to Ireland as a slave. Later he was ransomed but voluntarily returned to Ireland to convert it.

I was told this when I visited Hadrian's Wall, it may not be strictly true of course.

If it,is then St Patrick was a Dalmatian and not a Welshman or,God forbid, an Englishman, even if he lived in Britain.

Huge Irish sighs of relief all round!!


reply posted on 21-3-2008 @ 01:19 AM by Nohup
Originally posted by banyan
so jesus could not be god-ultimate, which is what christians believe he is, by your theory...correct?


I don't know what the knowledge or supernatural skill of controlling demons equates to. If it is gnosis, then maybe it can be thought of as a realization of the power that all human beings, Jesus as well as you and me, have but don't utilize. There is the notion that demons are projections of our own fears and hidden desires, and knowledge and control of them equate to the control of our fears and hidden desires. Didn't Satan say to Adam that with knowledge he would become like God? So maybe Satan was right. Satan is often reviled as a liar, but I always liked to think of him as something much worse... a revealer of painful truths. And with knowledge Jesus possibly assumed the role of creator, as we all do every day.

However, from the Gnostic texts, Jesus describes the god-ultimate as unfathomable and unknowable, and laughs when his Apostles pray to it, the incomprehensible thing that is not a thing.

But as I've said many times, I've never read a good definition of God that isn't inherently paradoxical. So I would have to say that Jesus couldn't be the uncomprehensible (god) thing and still be Jesus. But more like a conduit, or an agent.

Even Jesus himself didn't describe himself as divine, only a Son of Man, and a pathway to salvation. I think the confusion of divinity probably arose when he was embraced by Constantine and the Romans, who loved to deify their emperors and other worthy folks, mortals all. Some literalists failed to see the discinction.

From "I, Claudius":
[Claudius returns to Drusilla and Herod, after visiting Caligula, who has proclaimed himself a god]
Claudius: [to Drusilla] He wants to see you.
[to Herod]
Claudius: He's become a god.
[to Drusilla]
Claudius: Oh, you're a god, too.
[to Herod]
Claudius: We're not.





reply posted on 21-3-2008 @ 08:33 AM by Clearskies
Originally posted by Nohup
Even Jesus himself didn't describe himself as divine, only a Son of Man, and a pathway to salvation. I think the confusion of divinity probably arose when he was embraced by Constantine and the Romans, who loved to deify their emperors and other worthy folks, mortals all. Some literalists failed to see the discinction.


How many Christians died for refusing to burn incense to the 'god' caesars!!!!
HONESTLY!
Jesus is our Lord and God!
The deity of Christ
Deity Questioned
Deity Affirmed

Satan "If you are Son" (Mt 4:3)
God "This is My Son" (Mt 3:17)

Jew's "If you are Christ" (Jn 10:24)
Jesus "I Am" (Jn 10:36)

Soldiers "If you are King" (Lk 23:37)
Pilate "This is the King" (Lk 23:38)

Some at cross "If you are Son" (Mt 27:40)
Centurion "Truely He was Son" (Mt 27:54)

Thief #1 "If you are Christ" (Lk 23:39)
Thief #2 "He has done no wrong" (Lk 23:40)

Thomas "I will not believe unless" (Jn 20:27)
Thomas "My Lord and my God" (Jn 20:28)

IV. Jesus Is Divine In Substance

A. Col 2:9: the fullness of deity

B. Hob 1:3: exact representation of His nature

C. Jn 14:8-10 He who sees Me sees the Father.

Did the early church(BEFORE Nicea) hold to Jesus' deity???


Ignatius (30-107 A.D.), who was born before Christ died, consistently spoke of the deity of Jesus Christ. Consider a few examples: In To the Ephesians, and other letters, we find references such as the following: "Jesus Christ our God"; "who is God and man"; "received knowledge of God, that is, Jesus Christ"; "for our God, Jesus the Christ"; "for God was manifest as man"; "Christ, who was from eternity with the Father"; "from God, from Jesus Christ"; "from Jesus Christ, our God"; "Our God, Jesus Christ"; "suffer me to follow the example of the passion of my God"; "Jesus Christ the God" and "Our God Jesus Christ."4 The fact that Ignatius was not rebuked, nor branded as teaching heresy by any of the churches or Christian leaders he sent letters to proves that the early church, long before 107 A.D., accepted the deity of Christ.

Polycarp (69-155 A.D.) possibly spoke of "Our Lord and God Jesus Christ."5
[The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, Chapter 6, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson (eds.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325 (Vol. 1 The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus)]

Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.) wrote of Jesus, "who,… being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God."6 In his Dialogue with Trypho, he stated that "God was born from a virgin" and that Jesus was "worthy of worship" and of being "called Lord and God."7

Tatian (110-172 A.D.), the early apologist wrote, "We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales when we announce that God was born in the form of man."8

Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.), wrote that Jesus was "perfect God and perfect man"; "not a mere man…but was very God"; and that "He is in Himself in His own right…God, and Lord, and King Eternal" and spoke of "Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour and King"9

Tertullian (145-220 A.D.), said of Jesus "Christ is also God" because "that which has come forth from God [in the virgin birth] is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one…in His birth, God and man united."10

Caius (180-217 A.D.), a Roman Presbyter, wrote of the universal Christian attestation to the deity of Christ in his refutation of Artemon, who maintained that Christ was only a man. Note that before 217 A.D., Caius appealed to much earlier writers, all of whom taught Christ’s deity: "Justin and Miltiades, and Tatian and Clement, and many others,—who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the psalms, too, and hymns of brethren, which have been written from the beginning by the faithful, celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him…. [This] doctrine of the Church, then, has been proclaimed so many years ago,…"11

Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-265 A.D.) declared in On the Trinity, that "All [the persons] are one nature, one essence, one will, and are called the Holy Trinity; and these also are names subsistent, one nature in three persons, and one genus [kind]."12

Novatian (210-280 A.D.) wrote in his On The Trinity, of Jesus being truly a man but that "He was also God according to the Scriptures…. Scripture has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God."13 (Note then, that in the 200’s we already had discourses on the Trinity.)

Athanasius (293-373 A.D.), the keen defender of New Testament teaching against the early Arian heresy, which taught that Jesus Christ was not God, declared of Jesus, "He always was and is God and Son" and "He who is eternally God,… also became man for our sake."14

Alexander of Alexandria spoke in reference to Jesus of "his highest and essential divinity" and that he was "an exact and identical image of the Father."15

Eusebius of Caesarea stated that "the Son of God bears no resemblance to originated creatures but…is alike in every way only to the Father who has begotten [Him] and that he is not from any other hypostasis and substance but from the Father."16

Augustine declared that Christians "…believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, maker and ruler of the whole creation: that Father is not Son, nor Holy Spirit Father or Son; but a Trinity of mutually related Persons, and a unity of equal essence" and that therefore, "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit God; and all together are one God."17


[edit on 21-3-2008 by Clearskies]


reply posted on 21-3-2008 @ 09:53 AM by newday
Originally posted by Clearskies

You ain't callin' Jesus a liar, are you?

I'm thinking you may be or just being willfully ignorant.
Someone already explained to you that Jeshua was explaining to his disciples that satan wouldn't logically cast out his own 'brethren' spirits! Or else his kingdom would be divided.



The idea of who and what Jesus and the Messiah are that of the christian godhead, that you are attempting to promote are the lie that is being perpetrated in this thread.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with me.

You would have people accept another Jesus and another spirit which was not preached by the Apostles and Prophets whom Jesus appeared to in his resurrected and ascended form and declared before some five hundred eye witnesses that the father had sent him that he did not his own will but the will of the father who is in heaven.

The Jesus you preach is from the spirit antichrist which has come into the world to deceive the nations that they will worship the son of predication, who shall be reveled and declare himself in the flesh God incarnate, the abomination of desolation, the image of the beast which was dead but lives again in the form of a man.

Ga 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cause for which Christ was executed upon the accursed stake.

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You would have men believe that the Messiah did not come in the flesh but in the spirit as God the man.

Your belief of who the son of God is comes of the spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh and it is spoken from the mouth of the spirit of antichrist.

Your mind is bewitched by a powerful sorcery, it is darkened, you cannot see, and are accursed even as you curse your brothers and would blind their minds with your lies.

Oh thow foul mouth and wicked man, why spit you poison from thy lips, lay down your head to the ground, bow down your back and humble yourself, the time is coming and you shall be consumed of your pride and arrogance, your strength shall wither away as sand in the wind and your bowels shall be loosed, you shall not recover it again.


reply posted on 21-3-2008 @ 12:00 PM by Clearskies
reply to post by newday


Bless you!

What Jesus do you preach and witness for?
Mine is the one that died for our sins was raised the third day and even now is at the right hand of The Father!

I'm a Woman, not a man.

[edit on 21-3-2008 by Clearskies]


reply posted on 21-3-2008 @ 12:46 PM by newday
Originally posted by Clearskies

Bless you!

What Jesus do you preach and witness for?
Mine is the one that died for our sins was raised the third day and even now is at the right hand of The Father!

I'm a Woman, not a man.



In the sight of God there is neither male nor female, bond nor free, circumcised nor uncircumcised believer nor unbeliever all are of equal standing.

You can only curse, you can not bless with the holy spirit, your mind is influenced of a spirit which is using you.

I don't preach and witness for another Jesus you are doing that.

Is that Jesus you are talking about God or man?

If it is the Creator you think Jesus to be then you preach in behalf of the ministry of alienation from God, to draw the world unto the false savior, the man who will set up his kingdom and declare himself to be God, to be worshiped as God.

That is a curse upon all nations and peoples not a blessing.

The darkness is the light, the evil the good, damnation is become salvation, the blasphemy of the holy spirit the birth of life.

Your heart is turned bitter towards God in your desire for the things of this world in the deceitfulness of riches.

Why do you now walk by the flesh and by the sight when God delivered you by the invisible spirit?

Your love is hate, your believing a sound of the cymbal, there is no life in your words, no power in your sounding only death in the eating and the hearing of them.

Pray God will enliven you again, that his quickening spirit of love may be on your lips a sweet taste when greeted by his beloved with the holy kiss.

Forsake not God and He will not forsake you, return unto Him and He will return unto you.
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