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Jesus's crucifixion not politically motivated, but to stop a powerful sorcerer/necromancer?

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posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by meremortal
and another thing you mentioned the triangle with salome!


Well, that's a different story. A lot of people think that John the Baptist and Jesus were intense rivals. Jesus, after all, once referred to John as a "son of a woman," which is a huge insult. Many people think it's possible that the message of brotherly love was actually taught by John, who was the real Messiah, but sort of stolen by Jesus. So there was a big power struggle between John and Jesus. With Jesus taking advantage of a certain relationship to win.

The Gospel of Thomas hints at a much closer relationship between Salome and Jesus:

Gospel of Thomas 61
Jesus said, "Two will recline on a couch; one will die, one will live."
2 Salome said, "Who are you, mister? You have climbed onto my couch and eaten from my table as if you are from someone."
3 Jesus said to her, "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father."
4"I am your disciple."


The other one who "reclined on the couch" and died was John the Baptist. Racy stuff, huh? It's funny the intrigue you can find in the stories if you dig around a little. And you can see why some of this was not included in the Bible. People might connect the dots.


[edit on 18-3-2008 by Nohup]




posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 06:52 PM
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reply to post by Nohup
 


well i always thought john was paving the way for jesus so why would they be against each other?

they had respect did they not?

salome came across as eve the female deciever?

the temptress etc etc

why is the woman always depicted as the sly one?

apart from mary his mother of course the only one?

why is woman the bad one? prostitutes?

there are prostitutes because man says so..the oldest and biggest business in the world!

the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world!

i am a woman and women can be so stupid, woman wo unto man i've heard that,

but try being a woman, its a mans world and it would be nothing






without a woman or a girl..so the song says james brown

is it me or are women depicted as deceivers?

i feel a thread coming on only i dont have the brains



posted on Mar, 18 2008 @ 11:51 PM
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Hey I'm just saying this for the benefit of your Soul awareness that isn't spending it's time mentally interpreting and coming up with falsities. This is to be a deep trigger for anyone who reads this that will help them awaken to deeper truths.

JESUS was NEVER CRUCIFIED.

There was a homeless man who was approached by a certain group who stood in and was crucified in jesus's place. If you know that Jesus was not crucified then you will seek to know why he was not. In finding out why you will automatically unravel who he was and what he was here to do. By staging a crucifixion then people will make assumptions about who he was based on the meaning of his death and will totally change interpretations and folks be turned a way from actually discovering the truth. Oh and yes the truth can be found, if you don't believe that it can be then you will never find it. If you do believe you can know the truth then you can discover it. It's that simple. Oh and one more thing is that you can know this truth in any form, so do not be biased or look for truth to be shown to you in just one specific form of communication. You can discover it through a variety of mediums, just have to know how to look and where.

Sorry I cannot tell you more but that was not my intention here I am simply speaking to another part of your consciousness to be of service to you.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 03:51 AM
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Opportunity for meaningful dialogue?

Perhaps the posters on the present thread have something to say to the posters on this thread?

Then again, perhaps they don't.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 07:03 AM
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reply to post by Nohup
 


Before racing to conclusions about the meanings of things from the gospel of Thomas, I think we have to take into account the context of the text.

Firstly, unlike most of the other (all?) gospels of the New Testament, the gospel of Thomas is not a narrative describing the story of Jesus. Rather it is a collection of quotes attributed to Jesus. Therefore most of those passages are taken completely out of context and thus difficult to understand. Nevermind the fact that the communication of that era generally seems highly cryptic in comparison to modern forms of communication.

Further, I think the above translation is somewhat dubious, here is another which seems more accurate, and turn out to be somewhat less cryptic, at least I see nothing strange about it:

61) Jesus said, "Two will rest on a bed: the one will die, and the other will live."
Salome said, "Who are you, man, that you ... have come up on my couch and eaten from my table?"
Jesus said to her, "I am he who exists from the undivided. I was given some of the things of my father."
"I am your disciple."
"Therefore I say, if he is destroyed, he will be filled with light, but if he is divided, he will be filled with darkness."

Source



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 09:23 AM
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What made me KNOW that the infancy gospel of Thomas is a forgery is this;
"You godless, brainless moron, what did the ponds and waters do to you? Watch this now: you are going to dry up like a tree and you will never produce leaves or roots or fruit."

Jesus NEVER hurt children, especially in a childish, tantrum!

He didn't call anyone a MORON and commands US not to!

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The translation of fool is moros-[From Greek mōron, neuter of mōros, stupid, foolish.]

A false gospel!!!

edit to add;
Many of the Jews did think that his power came from the devil, because they had no relationship with God.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by Clearskies]



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by xxpigxx
 

you asked----what does the bible say about this ?
conspiracy wise----------2 corinthians 4:4 satan is the god of this world.see also matthew 4:9 and luke 4:5-7
Messiah is the Creator G-D of the old covenant and new testament.john 1:1-14
satan is an angel who with some others decided to stab the Boss in the back and try to take over rule of the universe but failed isaiah 14:12-14/ezekiel 28:12-17/ as they will again in another attempted coup.revelation 12:7-9
he and the angels he convinced to assist him are imprisoned on the earth except that on specific occasions satan is allowed to attend at meetings G-D has with the angels that did not rebel.job 1 and job 2.
our first parents made the choice for all of us in prefering satan and satan's advice over G-D's approximately 6000 years ago now. genesis 3.
you will notice from verse 22 that there is more than 1 G-D Being.

G-D gave adam and eve and consequently us what most other people want------for G-D to keep out of their buisness until we get ourselves in deep trouble----so They--the G-D Beings are doing this until we mess up real bad to the point of destroying the earth and all life on it.matthew 24:22

when Messiah returns to end our experiment in self rule with the god our first parents voted for then our enemy satan and his angels will be removed from our presence for the next 1000 years of peace.revelation 20:1-3.

i can only hope this answers what you were asking for .
peace,yahn



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by The_Modulus
Therefore most of those passages are taken completely out of context and thus difficult to understand. Nevermind the fact that the communication of that era generally seems highly cryptic in comparison to modern forms of communication.


Of course, there are various translations. And my linking of this particular passage to the murder of John the Baptist can and probably has been debated. When it comes to the Bible and related texts, there are very few new subjects for debate. But if everybody agreed not to debate or speculate about cryptic passages, then the entire mountains of intense discussion of the Revelation of St. John would also dry up an blow away. Which actually might save a lot of wasted time.


The notable absence of historical documentation external to the Bible or the related texts casts significant doubt on the idea that such an individual as Jesus even existed. About the same amount as Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill.

But working specifically from the available and sanctioned texts, there is no question that Jesus and his disciples were working deeply with sorcery, to the point where local townspeople got so scared thought it best to alert the authorities. And those activities were what Jesus was questioned about when he was arrested. That is obvious, plain and clear from the texts.

We don't think about it much these days, because we're modern, rational people who generally don't believe in demons (although if you believe the Bible, you should), and because Jesus has been so politicized over the centuries. His arrest and execution is usually presented as a political act, not punishment for what was at the time seen as an actual and dangerous crime.

I'm saying that it's my opinion that the sorcery component of the events leading up to the crucifixion has been substantially overlooked recently, and is something that might be of interest to people as they contemplate Easter, which is seen by many as the defining moment of Christianity.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:45 AM
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Great Thread Nohup,

Alright what about your average psychic? Do they have control over demons too? And when I say control im talking very limited because you don't see present day psychics throwing things around without lifting a finger. Im talking about ones that help the authorites find murderers, and tell you your future.

Now Im curious how one might find these demons. Ive heard of a couple exorcisms on young children, so this makes me think they might find you. Then some psychics say that a tool (forgot its name, usually used for ghosts) may draw demons in from other dimensions. I think this is scary especially if you are not strong enough to control them.

This definetly puts a whole new twist on Christianity. Its very scary to think that the majority of the this world could be whorshipping a complete fraud. There is one concern though, but what if he wasn't using demons and he was actually using angels. That would seem more correct, wouldn't it?



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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I'm not going to say that Jesus or his abilities were not real or that his teachings were not important. I have not read every post in this thread but I have often wondered about Jesus and a connection with Enochian Magick. It starts with Enoch - the Book of Enoch - the Book of the Watchers, etc. Moves onto King Solomon and his magick and then to Jesus with his miracles. They all seem to revolve around the same system of God/Angel magick. Even with Jesus is caught and Peter tries to defend him Jesus says stop, because if he wanted he would call down legions of angels to fight for him. Legions seems like a lot seeing how one angel can nuke a city or steal the lives of every first born son.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by Clearskies
Jesus NEVER hurt children, especially in a childish, tantrum!


All children hurt other children. I did, you did. Did Jesus speak at birth? There's no record of it. So he learned, like everybody else. He is presented as superhuman, but also human, who has to grow and learn what it is to be human. And a superhuman child could make living birds from mud or kill a playmate with a thoughtless curse. Later in life, I'm sure he regretted it, but I don't find it unimaginable.



Many of the Jews did think that his power came from the devil, because they had no relationship with God.


I don't have any particular opinion of the evilness of Jews, although a few years back there was a movement to kill all the European Jews. Generally that's thought of as a bad thing.

Anyway, it's Jesus who admits to using demon power. He admits to using the prime demon Beelzebub, but justifies is as pitting the demon against Satan to "divide the kingdom." Here's what he says:

Mark 3
20 Then the multitude came together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”
22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.”
23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end.


I think that's pretty clear to anyone who hasn't had their thinking clouded by apologetic interpretation.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by Nohup]



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:56 AM
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This is the best conspiracies in religion topic I have seen in a long time, flag and star.

I am afraid that the topic is to complicated for me
as I am not a believer of demons.


But so far the post are truly great.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Nohup
Anyway, it's Jesus who admits to using demon power. He admits to using the prime demon Beelzebub, but justifies is as pitting the demon against Satan to "divide the kingdom."


How to do you come to that conclusion?

In that quoted passage someone is trying to claim that Jesus is actually Satan in disguise because Jesus is casting out demons. This man claims that Jesus can command demons to leave because he is Satan - the ruler of demons.

Jesus confronts these people who are spreading rumors and ask them - How can Satan cast out Satan. No where in that passage is Jesus claiming to being Satan or says he uses demonic powers but completely the opposite. He is confronting the liars, and telling them that he is not Satan by using a parable that they would understand.


[edit on 19-3-2008 by zerotime]



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by zerotime
Jesus confronts these people who are spreading rumors and ask them - How can Satan cast out Satan. No where in that passage is Jesus claiming to being Satan or says he uses demonic powers but completely the opposite. He is confronting the liars, and telling them that he is not Satan by using a parable that they would understand.


But that's not what he's saying. His own people grab him and say he's lost his mind. The scribe say that "He has Beelzebub," which is like saying, "He has cancer.” They say, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.”

And Jesus answers, “How can Satan cast out Satan?" Which is essentially asking, "How can I use a satanic force, such as Beelzebub, a prime minion of Satan, to cast out Satan?" He explains that he is dividing the kingdom and house of Satan against itself so that it cannot stand. And adds, "And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end."

His goal (or rather, his rationalization) in using Beelzebub is to divide the house of Satan such that it is destroyed. Unfortunately, as is so often the case, the demon apparently infected him, poisoned him. It was obvious to the people around him. And this same chapter is where Jesus begins to make his most harsh statements, such as completely disowning his family in favor of the disciples, and starts doing his most impressive (one might even say "showy") miracles.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by scorps
This definetly puts a whole new twist on Christianity. Its very scary to think that the majority of the this world could be whorshipping a complete fraud. There is one concern though, but what if he wasn't using demons and he was actually using angels. That would seem more correct, wouldn't it?


Solomon used the threat of angels to control demons, but I don't think I've ever read where angels can be controlled by people.

As for ordinary psychics, they don't usually have much control over demons or other types of entities, although if you go by the anecdotal evidence, they can occasionally communicate with them. But communication isn't control. Control apparently requires very specific and powerful skills, often used on conjunction with powerful objects. A ring and a leather water bag, in the case of Solomon, and in Jesus's case possibly a special energy controlling robe.


Now Im curious how one might find these demons.


For average guys like you and me, spirit boards are probably a good place to start. A OUIJA board is a toy version of this, but the shape apparently is not as important as the intent. A lot of people say they work just fine.

My only suggestion is that if you want to try it, be careful. Study up on it as much as you can. And if possible, start slow, with little, weak entities, before you move up to the big one. It's important to note how problematic it could be, seeing as how somebody as supposedly powerful as Jesus could get infected.



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 01:59 PM
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I came to a site that talks about the bible and demon possession and to tell you the truth, I find facinating that demon exorcism was one of the main issues in he early christian church, and it wasn't until Jesus and the NT that Demons became an issue.


Within Scripture, actual possession by demonic forces is almost exclusively a New Testament phenomenon. Certainly, references to demons do occur in the Old Testament. Demons are mentioned in such passages as Leviticus 17:7, Deuteronomy 32:17, 2 Chronicles 11:15, Psalms 95:5 and 106:37, and Isaiah 13:21 and 34:14. None of these biblical passages speak, however, of that "use of a living body by another spirit" as one writer has defined possession.4 Though spiritism is forbidden in Scripture, what is referred to in Leviticus 19, Deuteronomy 18 and Isaiah 8 doesn't seem to have included possession.


This actually adds more to te OP interesting conspiracy.

It also said that the word demon or (daimon in Greek) is used 100 times in the NT.


Dealing with demon possession was an integral part of Jesus' daily life and ministry. It was also something in which He involved the Apostles and His other followers. As Bible scholar and Christian apologist Merrill Unger reminds his readers: "Not only did Jesus cast out demons, . . . but he delegated this power to the Twelve, to the Seventy, and even to believers."10


home.snu.edu...

This a side of the bible I neve gave any thoughts about.

In the Gospels of (Matthew, Mark and Luke) is 7 demons recorded possessions.

In the Gospels of (John) the only demon topic was when Jesus was accused of been possessed.

In Acts is two mentions of demon possession.

I looks like during Jesus time Demons were a big problem.


[edit on 19-3-2008 by marg6043]

[edit on 19-3-2008 by marg6043]



posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
I looks like during Jesus time Demons were a big problem.


Nowadays, demons and such are relegated to the fringes of Christianity and spooky movies. Although there are televangelists, often Southern Baptists, who do a good business in demon casting, and it's a big part of their show, just as it was for Jesus during his time. Most of us sophisticated urbanites cluck our tongues at the practice, but it turns out that they may be closer to the practice of basic, fundamental Christianity than some less theatrical sect.

Now, whether or not these televangelists have any power at all over demons is questionable. Most do not seem to use any kind of obvious talisman or invoke specific angels to help them, which would appear to be necessary. Notably, they have no container of water (like a bota bag) to capture any loose demons so they don't infect somebody else. So I can't imagine that they really do much actual sorcery, and any success that they may manage probably has to do more with a placebo effect than anything.

Demon catching bags. Fill with water. Place the pentagram ring around the spout to force them in, then seal it.





posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 03:58 AM
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Originally posted by yahn goodey
reply to post by xxpigxx
 

you asked----what does the bible say about this ?
conspiracy wise----------2 corinthians 4:4 satan is the god of this world.see also matthew 4:9 and luke 4:5-7


Where do you find these bogus translations?

Here are the proper ones:

2 Corinthians 4:4

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Source

And here is Matthew 4:8-10 to put it into the context you have ignored:

8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9"All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

Luke 4 is pretty much the same as above ----> Source


Nohup

Entertaining the premise that Jesus was a sorcerer, how do you explain the fact that in modern times such sorcery cannot, or is not, performed? You could easily find studies likening the abilities of diviners, tarot readers and other 'esoteric' mediums to the statistical probability of guesswork. We have never seen such advanced sorcery as healing sick, raising the dead or summoning demons in modern times. Why is this? Has the tether linking our reality with that of the 'otherside' been severed? The closest documented modern achievements that are in any way similar to the miracles performed by Jesus, at least that I can think of, would be things such as the Coral Castle mysteriously constructed by Edward Leedskalnin. I think the Count of St Germain also comes pretty close in terms of modern documentation.

In response to the allegations of modern 'faith healers' prominent in evangelical Christianity, I believe there is no evidence in any way verifying those claims. Remember en.wikipedia.org... a famous 'healer' who was exposed by James Randi as running a clever scam involving an in-ear microphone.

Do you have any examples of individuals in modern times who display the 'sorcerous' powers displayed by Jesus?



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 03:58 AM
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Sorry, double post


[edit on 20-3-2008 by The_Modulus]



posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 04:26 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


Hi Marg,

I think your source has also fallen prey to bogus sourcing, I'm not sure why people misquote, or simply invent, biblical references with this frequency.

Leviticus 17 with no mention of demons.

Deuteronomy 31 makes reference to the term 'demons' but the contex and meaning is less than clear.

2 Chronicles 11 has no mention of demons, it speaks about the leadership of a particular ruler.

Psalms 95 has no mention of anything related to demons either.

I could do them all but I'm sure you get the idea. I really don't understand what bibles these people are sourcing.

There are in fact few references to demons in the new testament. The only place where they appear with any kind of frequency are within Matthew, in fact he makes several observations, all of which are related to Jesus' healing abilities. There were apparently numerous demon-possessed individuals who were brought before Jesus to be healed. However, if Matthew is the only one using the term 'demons' then perhaps he is using the term in a different context to the other apostles. Historically mental illness has been a prime target for accusations of demon possession. In my opinion this is what Matthew is likely referring to.
Here is a list of where the term 'demon' appears ---> (-0-)




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