Assuming for a moment that there was a kind of radical rabbi around the time in question who would eventually be known as Jesus, not giving him any particular divinity, the more I read the various texts, I get the feeling that any sort of crucifixion that happened had a lot less to do with politics than it did with personal revenge and a need to suppress widespread sorcery and necromancy.

There are a number of disparate bits and pieces that leads me to think this way.

The personal revenge story is this. In a story in one of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Jesus magically kills a playmate of his, son of a man named Annas. Later, in the Gospel of Luke a high priest named Annas, possibly the same person, is cited as pushing hardest for Jesus's death.

Annas is particularly interested in getting Jesus to admit the source of his power. At that time, soon after Lazarus had been raised from the dead, Jesus was confronted by a number of fearful and angry townspeople and accused by them of using the demon Beelzebub to raise Lazarus. In a very roundabout way, Jesus essentially admits to it, claiming that by doing so he "divides and conquers" the Devil's army of evil.

Jesus actually refers to himself as greater than Solomon, a noted sorcerer who according to the Testament of Solomon, used demons to build the First Temple. Jesus's statement is made specifically within the context of sorcery and the casting out of demons.

Also, sorcery appears to be so rampant at the time that Jesus actually has a lot of competitors. The disciples are much more worried about it that him, saying that other people are casting out demons and saying they're Jesus ("using his name"). Jesus replies that anyone who does their sorcery in his name is doing good, although in this context, it seems he's basically saying that the imitators are good advertising for him and his work.

Maybe so, since the gospels leading up to the crucifixion are heavily weighted toward all kinds of sorcery and healing and necromancy.

All of this would certainly be worrisome to the priests of the Temple, particularly since the temple itself was built by demons under the command of Solomon. The Temple is actually said to be held up on one corner by demons.

Suddenly you get somebody who claims to be more powerful than Solomon, and who seems to have the appropriate mojo, and who strolls into the Temple and kicks the moneylenders out, now the Temple itself would be real in danger.

Add to all of this the specific mention of the death of Yshua in Sanhedrin 43A of the Talmud: There is a tradition (in a Barraitha): They hanged Yeshu on the Sabbath of the Passover. But for forty days before that a herald went in front of him (crying), "Yeshu is to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and lead them away from God. Anyone who can provide evidence on his behalf should come forward to defend him." When, however, nothing favorable about him was found, he was hanged on the Sabbath of the Passover.

This puts a bit of a different spin on the whole execution of Jesus. It wasn't so much that Jesus had such a wonderful philosophy that it threatened the status quo, it was because one high priest personally wanted him dead to avenge his son, and Jesus was a powerful sorcerer who was even more of a direct threat to the Temple than the Romans.

Just some idle thoughts on the matter, what with Easter coming up and all.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Nohup]

Sounds like a good fictional tale, sure.

Infact it sounds remarkably similar to certain tales written by one Raymond E. Feist.

Originally posted by Throbber
Sounds like a good fictional tale, sure. Infact it sounds remarkably similar to certain tales written by one Raymond E. Feist.

I would be much more interested in seeing a movie of "The Greatest Story Ever Told" if it included a huge battle between Jesus's demons and those controlled by the High Priests of the Temple. According to the Gospels, I suspect that a lot of Jesus's power is channeled through his robe (Mark 5:21-34). At the critical point in the movie, Jesus is caught in the garden without his power robe by the Roman soldiers, which leads to his inability to fight back. Later, in the tomb, the robe is returned to him, but the demons are only able to restore his life for a short time (the Pentecost), where he seeks some revenge on Annas.

Oh, and there's also a really good sub-plot involving a political/romantic triangle between Jesus, Salome and John the Baptist, who originally owned the robe.

Now that's a story!

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Nohup]

very interesting nohup

you mentioned the demons in the corner holding up the church would that be priests?

they say the closer to god you get the closer the devil!

so are there people around today that can manipulate demons?

Originally posted by meremortal
so are there people around today that can manipulate demons?

Awesome question! You'd think it would be more prevalent in today's society.

Nohup, this is the most awesome thread I've ever seen in CiR! It's amazing how just a small point of view change makes a whole different scene.

Star and a flag!



Cuhail

Originally posted by meremortal
so are there people around today that can manipulate demons?

My guess would be yes. Of course, there are a lot of pretenders and people who like to play act at being sorcerers. They're just a joke. But I suspect that out there in the world there are a few people who have found a way to control these strange entities probably mostly by trial and error.

I don't know of any, but it isn't necessarily the kind of thing you would advertise. It is a lot of power to throw around that could make you rich and famous, but it's like juggling dynamite. Some of these demons can apparently mess you up pretty bad if you lose control just a little bit.

I also suspect, but don't know for sure, that the Vatican has agents moving around in the world looking for these people so they can put a stop to them. If much of Jesus's power was derived through demons (Beelzebub, in particular), that secret knowledge may have been passed down through the ages to keep the foundation of their Temple secure, also. If somebody showed up who could really cure people by casting out demons or perform other miracles with that power, you could see where it would not be a good thing for the Church.

The demonic power we're talking about is the power of a consciousness able to manipulate energy more directly than we are able to. Psychokinetic power that demons use to hold themselves together and manipulate other energy and matter. Controlling the demons apparently requires using even stronger entities, ones people generally refer to as angels, but represent similar but different types of entities.

The latest source I can find of someone using demons is from the book of Dr. Faust, Wittenberg, 1524. Basically he made a pact with Asteroth, who introduced him to another named Marbuel who was appointed his servant. He banished Marbuel for a better demon, Aciel. Faust was found one morning with a knife in his back, dead.

I don't get it at all

Can someone prove this using the Bible?

Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by meremortal
so are there people around today that can manipulate demons?

My guess would be yes. Of course, there are a lot of pretenders and people who like to play act at being sorcerers. They're just a joke. But I suspect that out there in the world there are a few people who have found a way to control these strange entities probably mostly by trial and error.

Again! Ba-ding! I see examples of "amateur" sorcery in the Paranormal Studies Forum all the time. Posters: Keep this thread in mind when surfing ATS. Might be apparent to many.

I don't know of any, but it isn't necessarily the kind of thing you would advertise. It is a lot of power to throw around that could make you rich and famous, but it's like juggling dynamite. Some of these demons can apparently mess you up pretty bad if you lose control just a little bit.

Hmmmmm....I could relate this, conversationally of course, to current/recent Hollywood headlines. Look at past stars like River Phoenix, James Dean, John Belushi to current stars like Britney Spears, Heath Ledger and Lindsay Lohan. Maybe some are very good at juggling the powers, like: The Olson Twins, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. Again, just musing.

I also suspect, but don't know for sure, that the Vatican has agents moving around in the world looking for these people so they can put a stop to them. If much of Jesus's power was derived through demons (Beelzebub, in particular), that secret knowledge may have been passed down through the ages to keep the foundation of their Temple secure, also. If somebody showed up who could really cure people by casting out demons or perform other miracles with that power, you could see where it would not be a good thing for the Church.

THAT'S been mentioned once or twice in real life and alluded to in movies and TV.

The demonic power we're talking about is the power of a consciousness able to manipulate energy more directly than we are able to. Psychokinetic power that demons use to hold themselves together and manipulate other energy and matter. Controlling the demons apparently requires using even stronger entities, ones people generally refer to as angels, but represent similar but different types of entities.

I agree with the assumption. Right on Nohup! Keep going, I'm all ears. If no-one else is reading, so be it. I wanna hear some more!

Cuhail

Originally posted by xxpigxx
I don't get it at all Can someone prove this using the Bible?

What specifically don't you get? If you believe in the Bible, and not just the bits and pieces that are easy for you to accept, then you are already basically required to believe in demons, sorcery, and so on. Huge chunks of the Gospels are about Jesus working either directly with demons -- casting them out, and so on -- or through demons to accomplish a "miracle," like raising someone from the dead.

Other sources, such as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Testament of Solomon, the Talmud and the Koran, provide other bits and pieces to the puzzle.

Overall, what we're talking about is a "conspiracy" (which is why it's in this forum) to downplay and diffuse a very significant motive for the execution of Jesus. That Jesus was an extremely skilled and therefore dangerous sorcerer who had to be taken out before his power grew to the point where he threatened the Temple, which was itself built by demons and supported by them. On top of that, we have the High Priest Annas, whose son was killed by Jesus as a boy, who wants Jesus dead for obviously personal reasons and sees a chance to do it.

I think it puts an interesting spin on the Easter story.

[edit on 18-3-2008 by Nohup]

Originally posted by meremortal
dont tell me demonic can come across as love?
now that will wreck my head!

Unfortunately, I would have to say yes. Demons are notorious liars, and almost like wild animals will take every advantage they can to turn the tables on you, infect you, and so on.

The power you felt yourself manifest may have just been your own, however. We have some limited ability to directly manipulate energy, although mostly on very small scales, like the electricity and chemicals in your neurons. But it's a start.

I wouldn't worry about it, though.

well Nohup it makes eating fish on a friday a trivial ting!

this good friday i mean?

all the pubs and bars are closed in ireland on good friday, which is a joke because people here go mad on good friday drinking because they are told they should not drink and the pubs are shut!

thursday evening there are queue's in the off license's to stock up for good friday!

people have party's on good friday because the pubs are closed!

we were told by the pope that we had to celebrate st patricks day on sat 15th march as monday the 17th is in the holy week?

did any one listen?

they did in england and northern ireland but not the south!

an area in dublin had riots yesterday of 200 people at 10.00 am (st pats )

sorry to go off the theme


i digress too much!

Originally posted by meremortal
sorry to go off the theme
i digress too much!

Not too far off theme. What we're talking about is manipulating mystical power. Jesus did it. St. Patrick may be another example or somebody using a mystical power to manipulate things to their advantage. Snakes are an interesting connection, since Jesus was Egyptian, and snakes figure prominently in their religion. Snakes and staves are obvious symbols of power. Look at any good Tarot deck.