9/11 What evidence would make you believe in a conspiracy?

Originally posted by jfj123
How would you suggest we go about finding the truth. Please be specific. Thanks.

Very simple, and easy. Do the things i have been doing.

You do research.

You file FOIA requests, i have information on sending them if you need help.

You e-mail companies that were at ground zero. I have name sand some addresses.

[edit on 16-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
You disrespect all who have served as crew chiefs when you make statements like this in order to make a point.

Since you have insulted me i have to shut you up and show you that the F-4 is made out of a lot of steel.

www.strategypage.com...

The J79 required alot of extra steel around the unit in order to protect the area surrounding the engine from excessive heat.

Just under 1,300 pounds of heat shielding went into the F-4 just because of the J79's heat emitting characteristics.

Also why would a pilot call their F-4 the "Steel Stallion" ?

By the way the Germans called their F-4s the "IRON HOG"
domainhelp.search.com...

German Luftwaffe crews called their F-4s the Eisenschwein ("Iron Hog"),

It was not because it was mostly made of aluminum.



[edit on 16-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Since you have insulted me i have to shut you up and show you that the F-4 is made out of a lot of steel.

www.strategypage.com...

The J79 required alot of extra steel around the unit in order to protect the area surrounding the engine from excessive heat.

Just under 1,300 pounds of heat shielding went into the F-4 just because of the J79's heat emitting characteristics.

You're citing as a source another forum where someone else is offering an uncited figure as fact and you're claiming that as fact? *sigh*

Even if we accepted your "fact", 1,300 pounds of heat shielding only accounts for 1/3 of the engine's total weight of:

Dry weight: 3,850 lb (1,750 kg)

en.wikipedia.org...

which is still a paltry amount when compared to the empty weight of the entire aircraft:

Empty weight: 30,328 lb (13,757 kg)

en.wikipedia.org...

Incidentally, those engines also had plenty of titanium in them as well:

The J79 is a single-spool turbojet with a 17-stage compressor with a novel arrangement of variable stator blades which allow the engine to develop pressure similar to a twin-spool engine at a much lower weight. Each blade is made largely of titanium which was not used for large aircraft structures until the 1960s, and each blade today costs several thousand dollars to replace.

en.wikipedia.org...

Of course, since titanium is lighter than steel, its really not appropriate to make a comparison of percentage of engine composition based solely upon weight.

I'm going to discount your other assertion about the composition of the jet based entirely on its nickname, because even there you contradict yourself. On one hand, you say "steel" and then next you say "iron". I'm sure I don't have to tell you that iron and steel aren't the same thing, and only one of those materials had any role, whatsoever in the composition of this aircraft and its powerplant.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Also why would a pilot call their F-4 the "Steel Stallion" ?

Please show me your reference for the "Steel Stallion" nickname.

I've heard the F-4 called "Double Ugly", and even "Lead Sled", but never called a "Steel Stallion". A simple internet search also showed zero hits on F-4s being called a "Steel Stallion". Even your worldsecurity.org site didnt call it that.

Originally posted by Disclosed
Please show me your reference for the "Steel Stallion" nickname.

A simple internet search also showed zero hits on F-4s being called a "Steel Stallion".

You really do need to learn how to look up information.
bobfreitag.net...

Pleading quite earnestly to my rugged 'steel stallion', I whisper, "Hang in there a little longer, Baby; we're just passing the coastline."

Maybe you can explain why it would called "STEEL STALLION"... OR "IRON HOG"

Hint, its not becasue its made mostly of aluminum.

[edit on 16-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by KarmaIncarnate

Just under 1,300 pounds of heat shielding went into the F-4 just because of the J79's heat emitting characteristics.

Even if we accepted your "fact", 1,300 pounds of heat shielding only accounts for 1/3 of the engine's total weight of:


Please read the post, the steel shielding was in the engine bay of the plane not on the engine.

So that means you have to figure in the the steel in the engine bays plus the steel in the engine.

Yes as stated the 10% titanium figure includes the engines.

[edit on 16-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

You really do need to learn how to look up information.

Maybe you can explain why it would called "STEEL STALLION"... OR "IRON HOG"

hahaha! You are using someones STORY as fact for it being called a "Steel Stallion"?? Not using Janes, or a military site, or anything like that...but someones story?!?!?!

Oh man, you crack me up

I call my Chrysler 300c SRT8 "the mob car"...because its black and looks like a mafia boss car. Does that mean it is officially known as "the mob car" now?

reply to post by ULTIMA1


You're now using an author's colorful turn of phrase as justification for your claim? You really are a piece of work.

Any chance you'll ever post an actual credible source of any data to back yourself up, ever?

Originally posted by Disclosed
hahaha! You are using someones STORY as fact for it being called a "Steel Stallion"??

Why can't you answer a simple question?

Why would a pilot call it STEEL STALLION?

Why would the the Germans call it IRON HOG?

Maybe becasue its made of steel ? Oh no that could not be then you and the other believers would have to admit you were wrong.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
bobfreitag.net...

Pleading quite earnestly to my rugged 'steel stallion', I whisper, "Hang in there a little longer, Baby; we're just passing the coastline."

Maybe you can explain why it would called "STEEL STALLION"... OR "IRON HOG"
[edit on 16-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

So one reference that reads more like something out of a romance novel then an aviation history, is your proof that is called "steel stallion"? Are you suggesting that the plane was mostly iron because of the name iron hog? Or mostly steel because of the supposed steel stallion name, I'm confused...

Originally posted by KarmaIncarnate
[Any chance you'll ever post an actual credible source of any data to back yourself up, ever?

If you would stop cherry picking what i post you would have seen that i did post a source for the large amount of steel heat shielding needed for the J-79 engine.

Funny how you beleivers will do and stay anything not to be adult enough to admit that i have posted evidence to suport my statements.

Originally posted by _Del_
Are you suggesting that the plane was mostly iron because of the name iron hog? Or mostly steel because of the supposed steel stallion name, I'm confused...

Maybe you can explain why it would be called "STEEL STALLION"... OR "IRON HOG" I do not think it would becasue it was moslty made of aluminum, do you?

And that fact that the source i posted stated about a large amount of steel needed for a heat shield in the engine bays.

In other news, I've now proven the F-105 and SR-71 were both made mostly of lead.

www.aviation.ru...


You of course will bombard me with insults and "official" stats showing that they were not, but I've proven beyond a doubt they were mostly (more than 50%) lead.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by _Del_
Are you suggesting that the plane was mostly iron because of the name iron hog? Or mostly steel because of the supposed steel stallion name, I'm confused...

Maybe you can explain why it would be called "STEEL STALLION"... OR "IRON HOG"

Again is that mostly iron or mostly steel? I can't figure out which one you are "proving" with this.

Originally posted by _Del_
In other news, I've now proven the F-105 and SR-71 were both made mostly of lead.

Gee i get in insulted if i post statement without sources.

By the way the SR-71 is almost all titanium. Its fun and easy to look things up you should try it sometime.

reply to post by _Del_


Del.....am I the only one here beginning to think that ULTIMA isn't who he claims?

My first inkling was when I was told, by ULTIMA, that he didn't post until after 1500 hours (well, he said '3 PM') because that's when he got off work from the NSA. Of course, it's a two-hour drive from near BWI to Pennsylvania....

But it's no coincicence, is it, that school usually lets out at about 1500 hours???

just wondering......

reply to post by ULTIMA1


'It's fun and easy to look at things'.....now THERE is a well-thought-out, adult comment if I've ever seen one!!!

[adding] ULTIMA, when you go learn to fly, and spend about 30 years flying, and do some teaching, as I did, then get hired at an airline and gain more experience.....then maybe you'll be able to understand what your FOIA requests have provided, and what people like myself and others are describing. Of course, in 30 years, I'll be dead....well, maybe not....but much, much older....



[edit on 5/16/0808 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by _Del_
Again is that mostly iron or mostly steel? I can't figure out which one you are "proving" with this.

Well its definitely not made mostly of aluminum is it, as some believers have stated?

I do believe the Germans called it IRON HOG because of the amount of steel in it.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by _Del_
In other news, I've now proven the F-105 and SR-71 were both made mostly of lead.

Gee i get in insulted if i post statement without sources.

By the way the SR-71 is almost all titanium. Its fun and easy to look things up you should try it sometime.

I showed you my source:
www.aviation.ru...

The SR-71 is made mostly out of lead.
Maybe you can explain why it would be called "LEAD SLED" I do not think it would becasue[sic] it was moslty[sic] made of aluminum, do you?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
'It's fun and easy to look at things'.....no THERE is a well-thought-out, adult comment if I've ever seen one!!!

If you are going to quote me, at least be adult enough not to misquote me.

My quote, that you misquoted.

Its fun and easy to look things up you should try it sometime.