Chinese Security Forces Swarm Tibet

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Good point and my apologies. I studied Tibetan history 30 years ago and was quite passionate about Tibetan rights back then.

I wasn't directing it your way, I didn't see any abusive or overly emotional posts from you.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by 27jd]

Originally posted by morgul
It doesn't matter to me, it feels good to know the truth and that so many others are deep in their own ignorance. It's a feeling of superiority.

Well, glad we could help you out with the self esteem, Greg. See ya around.

reply to post by sy.gunson


If the Chinese say so, it must be true right ?

I'd believe the Chinese embassy over hearsay anyday. However, I would like to hear what "President" Hu has to say about the matter.

Originally posted by sy.gunson

China white perhaps you have not been watching un-censored feed from CNN out of China lately about Tibet.

what makes you think I live in China?

The CNN watched in China is not the full program content available outside China.

They have UN-censored CNN in hotels and the only way to get CNN overseas is with a satellite dish

[edit on 19-3-2008 by chinawhite]

I dug up some maps of the area starting in 500 BC upto 1949.

500 BC:
upload.wikimedia.org...
700 AD:
upload.wikimedia.org...
800:
upload.wikimedia.org...
900:
upload.wikimedia.org...
1200:
upload.wikimedia.org...
1580:
upload.wikimedia.org...
1912:
www.maps.com...
1929:
www.dean.usma.edu...
1937:
upload.wikimedia.org...
1940:
upload.wikimedia.org...
1945:
www.dean.usma.edu...
1949:
www.dean.usma.edu...
www.dean.usma.edu...
www.tibettruth.com...
www.tibettruth.com...
1951:
ngmapcollection.com...

[edit on 20/3/08 by Cthulwho]

If the Chinese say so, it must be true right ?

Biggie smalls, I referred to what the Chinese embassy itself says at the outset, but the majority of my post/quote was not from that source.

The point about the Chinese embassy is that even they refer to Tibet's independence before China's revolution in 1911.

When one looks at the facts about 1910-1912, a Manchu army invaded Tibet and that army itself did not even recognise the authority of the Chinese government because the force revolted against it's own officers before being driven out.

That was China's claim on Tibet in 1911.

That it invaded a sovereign nation which it refused to see as sovereign.

27id, correct but I have been abrupt with others. Thank you for the point you've made.

Originally posted by stumason
How so? The vast majority of native American oppression occurred in the 19th Century. That makes it the USA's fault.

British colonies?

Maybe because this has been going on for centuries, it makes it relevant.

What makes it relevant, is what is going on today. Should we still chastise the Germans for Hitlers influence and quest for global domination?

You can't sidestep the issue of the NA because it "was too long ago", yet chastise the Chinese.p

Yes, yes I can. And I will, as itis a totally irrelevant issue today.

What makes the china issue of today so relevant is because in todays world, I, along with everyone else, can actually voice are opinion on a matter that is occurring in our lifetime. Not something that happened well over a century ago. It is irrelevant to bring up the past, if the past does not apply to the peoples living today, you cannot possibly justify chinas genocidal actions TODAY by saying "X is comparable to Y".

so don't get you panties in a twist because you feel I threatened the great USA.

What part of the source I linked did you not get? I am not worried...

A civil war in China WOULD hurt the world economy severely. How you can think otherwise is beyond me.

for a short time, yes. That is until factory's relocate to India, as well as other Asian nations, along with nations south of the US border...

However, your initial post I do believe pondered the fact that it could potentially "collapse" the global economy...


[edit on 20-3-2008 by West Coast]

As an aside the native american problem is not a thing of the past, Have you ever been to a reservation?

And the situation is relevent because it is now, we dont excuse the present by recalling what has happened in the past.

Originally posted by gluetrap
As an aside the native american problem is not a thing of the past, Have you ever been to a reservation?

Are Indians still being slaughtered? If so, then yes. But we both know that is not the case now, or is it?...

They signed the treaty that gave them the land they live on. They live off of government subsidy's, etc. I do not proclaim life as being "wonderful" for them, however, they do not have it as bad as the Tibetans do. They, unlike the tibetans, have FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION!!!

And the situation is relevent because it is now, we dont excuse the present by recalling what has happened in the past.

I do not totally fill sorry for NA who live on reservations. They can make their life better, and do so without worrying about the government coming down on them. However, that would mean, that they would have to leave their reservations, and join what is a modern american society.

Just for the record, I do not condone what happened to the Native Americans. Lets make it clear here right now, I do not condone any actions such as these, FROM ANY NATION!
Which is Why I cannot understand why this has turned into a slug fest between "who has the worst human rights record?!" It is WRONG period!

So let us not condone such actions. Let us not make excuses for such actions, like many have done on here.

Have you ever actually been to a reservation?
Have you ever talked with an elder and known the young generation

forced sterilizations and vaccine experiments were taking place well into the 70s

Please dont be fooled into thinking that native americans are able to just leave the Rez and join modern america.

And they had no choice but to sign the treaties, they were a broken people and given false promises and were set up to depend on subsidies because we took their way of life and attempted to shove round pegs into our square holes.....
their culture way of life, manner of thinking, and all encompassing spirituality were and are so at odds with the white man there was no easy reconciliation.

What you have in many cases are people with totally broken spirits, their culture is lost and they were stuck on the most unproductive crap land we had to offer.


this is not about the Native americans but I do see some parallels in the oppression and loss of such wonderful healing and need spiritual belief systems. Both cultures have produced some of the most profoundly peaceful philosophical and spiritual leaders we will ever know.

reply to post by gluetrap


Native Americans are not out rioting, or protesting against the US government. They are not being killed for being "Indians." They are free to do what they want. They even have certain rights that US citizens do not even have...

I am not saying life is great for them, neither do I condone the actions of the past by the US government (something you seem to have a hard time understanding), You cannot justify what china is doing, by bringing up something that is in fact, irrelevant.

Why was the US even brought up in the first place? This has nothing to do with the US, it has everything to do with CHINA. If you would like to make your own thread about past atrocities concerning Native Americans, fine.

The fact that the US was brought up in a thread that had nothing to do with it...shows me just how desperate the anti american crowd has become...

Originally posted by sy.gunson

In fact China's claim arises from a very tenuous assertion.

Until 1294AD China was ruled by Kublai Khan and at that time Tibet was part of the Mongol Empire. Kubli Khan was succeeded by other Mongols but in 1352 there was a rebelion by the Chinese overthrowing Mongol Rule.

To suggest that because the Mongols were driven from China that it somehow implies China then ruled or controlled Tibet is nonsense, but that is just what China asserts. .

But why did the Dalia lama con't to be the Ming Dynasty's "high Priest" ? An official title up to the Qing Dynasty ? Just like the Monols ? Obviously, the Ming over took the Mongol empire within their reach... which included Tibet.

If the Ming Dynasty were able to over throw the Mongols.. would Tibet stand a chance. We are talking about 13th century here. Every strong country would gobble up the little ones, and be part of theirs. The Chinese have their little way of governing. Modern pre 20th century rules are written by the west.

Tibet had it's own ruler, the Dalai Lama and it's own borders with China.

Every province of china up to the earlier Qing Dynasty have their little own Kings and a prince title. The Chinese have their little way of governing.

In 1924 the British invated Tibet under Col Francis Younghusband. The conflict between British India and the Dalai Lama's Tibet was resolved by a peace treaty between Britain and Tibet.

I thought it was 1888 and 1903, both times the british invaded, the dalai lama escape to Mongolia. In the first place, Why did the British invaded Tibet, and twice did not absord it into the Commonwealth colony ? They have routed the whole resistance. And Only to sign a peace treaty ? In those days, the British isn't pussy in taking land. They knew fully well, it was a Chinese province.

China was completely uninvolved with the process. The Dalai Lama at the time however fled east from Lhasa and took refuge in China whilst a regent negotiated peace with the British.

What now you are saying that there is a Chinese regent ? You know what that means.. uninvolved ?

That's the tenuous history of China's B/S claim on sovereignty over Tibet.

Tibet was an entirely different country with it's own language, Government and treaties.

Every china's province has their own language. Treaties forced to signed by an occupational force ? Why would the British even bother to that ? Because they knew it's part of China, and what's to grab it.. like what the Soviets did to outer Mongolia. It's Great strategy.. then install themselves.. since the British is already occupying Tibet.

China invaded an independent nation period.

Then why those official title, and a Chinese Regent ? Why didn't the British absorb Tibet as their colony ?

reply to post by gluetrap


I totally agree with your statement. It comes to mind after reading your post a certain youtube video on the genocide of the "ethnosphere", it isn't just Tibet. We need to preserve all cultures and respect one another. I hope that we can do that with the coming generations.

Here's the vid, it's a little long, but he does mention being in Tibet, and it's a great talk on this very subject affecting many cultures.



[edit on 20-3-2008 by mysticaltheologist]

[edit on 20-3-2008 by mysticaltheologist]

[edit on 20-3-2008 by mysticaltheologist]

[edit on 20-3-2008 by mysticaltheologist]

STAND with TIBET - Petition

Here is a petition you can sign to show your dissatisfaction with what China is doing.

Stand with Tibet - Petion (this link will take you to the petition you can sign)

Petition to Chinese President Hu Jintao:

As citizens around the world, we call on you to show restraint and respect for human rights in your response to the protests in Tibet, and to address the concerns of all Tibetans by opening meaningful dialogue with the Dalai Lama. Only dialogue and reform will bring lasting stability. China's brightest future, and its most positive relationship with the world, lies in harmonious development, dialogue and respect.

It probably won't affect how China handles the situation, but it never hurts to try!

So far

361,608 have signed the petition in the last 48 hours. Help us get to 1,000,000

[edit on 20/3/08 by Keyhole]

Some news from the front:

China Admits Shooting Rioters Dead

Chinese state media has admitted police shot dead four rioters "in self-defence" in a Tibetan area of southwestern Sichuan province.

The official Xinhua News Agency reported on "riots in Tibetan-inhabited areas in the provinces of Sichuan and Gansu, both neighbouring Tibet".

It blamed both incidents on supporters of the Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual leader in exile.

The four rioters is a bit of an understatement, but the Chinese need to save face here. They really want to host the Olympics bad and this puts a bit of a damper on their party.


China steps up Tibetan crackdown

China has admitted for the first time that anti-Beijing protests have spread outside
the Tibetan Autonomous Region, as security is ratcheted up.

The authorities have placed strict limits on Western journalists trying to report on the unrest.

Georg Blume, a German journalist who was forced out of Lhasa on Thursday, said security forces had told him he was the last foreign journalist in the city.

He told the BBC that police were "everywhere" and he had seen them going into houses and carrying out searches.

So it seems the Chinese aren't so democratic now are they?


China sends more troops to restive areas

Originally posted by sy.gunson
27id, correct but I have been abrupt with others. Thank you for the point you've made.

You're welcome.

I appreciate the appreciation...

reply to post by gluetrap


I've been to many reservations, and donated lots of $$ to their casinos, lol. I know several Native Americans, most of them own a piece of land and get checks every month. Also, they are not confined there, they can live off the rez as well and pursue the same opportunities as anybody else. It doesn't make right what happened in the past, but we both know full well they get ALOT more compensation than the Tibetans do from China. If it were up to me, I'd give this god forsaken desert back to them even though I was born here too. Europeans weren't meant to live in this heat, lol.

FREE TIEBET!!!!!!!!! DOWN WITH COMMUNISM!!!!!!! RISE WITH DEMOCRACY!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Keyhole

Here is a petition you can sign to show your dissatisfaction with what China is doing.

Signed and forwarded... Thanks!