Freemasonry - 3rd vs 33rd degree, page 1

privacy

Pages: << 1 2 3 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 3 times

Topic started on 7-3-2008 @ 04:28 AM by Saurus

This thread is intended to provide information for those many, many people who believe that 33° is higher than 3° in masonry.

I have stubled across a most instructive flowchart which explains exactly how the various side-orders fit together in masonry (in England, at least - requirements for each order may be slightly different elsewhere, although the structure is basically the same):

Flow Chart

This flowchart was written by masons for masons, and clearly demonstrates that the 33rd degree of the scottish rite (Ancient and accepted Rite (Rose Crois)) is no higher than any other side order; neither is it higher than 3°. It is simply one of many, many side orders.

I would like to ask these believers in 33° as the highest masonic degree why they would choose this particular side order above the many orders in masonry, claiming that this particular one is higher?

Is it simply because it has the highest number?

The degree numbers in the scottish rite are unique to that order and have no relevance to any other freemason; nor to any other masonic side order, other than those who partake in this particular rite. I think it is crystal clear in this flowchart.

I sincerely hope that this will further the understanding of all those who truly wish to understand how masonry and the side orders fit together.

[edit on 7/3/2008 by Saurus]

[edit on 7/3/2008 by Saurus]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 09:07 AM by Researcher

I would like to ask these believers in 33° as the highest masonic degree why they would choose this particular side order above the many orders in masonry, claiming that this particular one is higher?

The quite reasonable belief that you have to go though 1 through 32, in numerical order, to get to 33.

The title Sovereign Grand Commander associated with the 33d degree.

The title Supreme Council of the 33d Degree associated with the 33d degree.

The statement made by some that you become a 33d degree Mason by invitation only, and the statement that if you openly seek it you are banned from the 33d degree.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 11:25 AM by pacificwind

Originally posted by Researcher
The quite reasonable belief that you have to go though 1 through 32, in numerical order, to get to 33.

And yet you completely ignore the fact that you go from 3 to 32 in 1-3 days, in the United States. You also ignore the fact that you do not have to go through every degree to get to 32. You only have to see a few (4, 14, 30, and a few others) in order to become a 32nd degree.

Originally posted by Researcher
The title Sovereign Grand Commander associated with the 33d degree.

Actually, in the U.S. if I remember correctly, the title is Inspector General for those who sit on the council and Honorary Inspector General for those who are given the 33rd degree.

Exactly WHAT IS the criteria for determining which degree title sounds higher than another? I'd argue that many of the other scottish rite degree names *sound* much more impressive and more powerful than Inspector General - like Prince of the Tabernacle (24th), or Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret (32nd, northern jurisdiction).

Originally posted by Researcher
The title Supreme Council of the 33d Degree associated with the 33d degree.

This is ominous...how?

Originally posted by Researcher
The statement made by some that you become a 33d degree Mason by invitation only, and the statement that if you openly seek it you are banned from the 33d degree.

Uhh - this is how MOST awards and honors work. There are probably more honorary Ph.D. holders in the United States than 33rd degrees. You can only get a honorary Ph.D. by invitation only, and if you ask for it from a university you aren't getting it. Is there also a nefarious conspiracy of honorary Ph.D.s ruling the world?

[edit on 7-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 01:18 PM by JoshNorton

To perform that duty, whether the performance be rewarded or unrewarded, is the Mason's sole care. And it doth not matter, though of this performance there may be no witnesses, and though what he does will be forever unknown to all mankind.
—Albert Pike

Basically saying that you shouldn't do good work just to be honored by a white cap. You should do good work because good work should be done. If you're rewarded for that, great. If not, you're still a better man than if you had done nothing, and that's what really matters.

[edit on 3/7/2008 by JoshNorton]

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 04:38 PM by Rockpuck

reply to post by Researcher

Actually you don't go in numerical order from 1-33 .. in fact, there are many hundreds of combinations that you could do to get all 33 degrees...

But anyways. Everyones flow chart is different.. and I am finding that it depends on what Rite the person who makes it is active in lol.. sometimes York is above Scottish, sometimes the opposite..

But anyways, there is no ranking system, a 33 is still a 3.

There is also no special power given to a 33rd except that they become honorary members of the Scottish Rite governing body....

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 07:06 PM by Researcher

This is ominous...how?

I said it was ominous...where?

Is there also a nefarious conspiracy of honorary Ph.D.s ruling the world?

Also? The theory that a conspiracy theory exists, exists only in your mind.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 08:15 PM by Maligui

From my studies. 3rd degree is grand mason. Any degree above the third is sort of like a Senior in high school taking extra classes. They are still seen as a Senior (or 3rd degree), they just have taken extra classes.

So, from what I understand, 33rd degree is not seen above 3rd degree, but is seen as having more knowledge.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 08:17 PM by pacificwind

reply to post by Researcher

Nice try to back out of what you said. Won't work though.

You posted reasons as to why a 33rd degree is "higher" than 3rd degree. Higher. Regardless of what you will no doubt now claim, "higher" is taken to mean as more power and authority. One of those reasons was that because the governing body of the scottish rite is called the supreme council. This indicates one is higher than the other...how?

And also, I have never seen anyone indicate that a 33rd degree is higher than 3rd and not have an attached conspiracy to it. The only place that happens is in your mind.

reply posted on 7-3-2008 @ 09:39 PM by lostinspace

reply to post by Saurus

The conspiracy that probably makes the 33rd Degree so special originates from Albert Pike's book entitled Morals and Dogma of the Ancient & Accepted Rite. The cover of the book has a number of fascinating symbols. The top symbol is of a triangle emitting rays of glory with the number 33 within it. This symbol elevates the importance of the number 33. This triangle of glory is seen on the Great Seal of the United States of America. An eyeball is located in the center of the triangle instead of the number 33 with the seal. The eye in the triangle is thought to represent God. An old church in France displays a scene of the glory emitting triangle. Instead of an eyeball or the number 33, the name of the Hebrew God YHWH (Yahweh or Jehovah) is located within the triangle. These four Hebrew letters are called the Tetragrammaton. The number 33 seems to be elevated to the position of the Almighty and that's why there's a conspiracy.

HWHY (read from right to left in the Hebrew language)

reply posted on 8-3-2008 @ 12:49 AM by JoshNorton

reply to post by lostinspace

Yeah, but my 32° Black Cap has a 32 in the triangle "emitting rays of glory". So if ANYTHING in a triangle so depicted is an elevation to the Almighty, then you've just included many thousands more than if you only considered 33s.

So, no.

reply posted on 8-3-2008 @ 10:42 AM by pacificwind

reply to post by lostinspace

But the problem with this is that the COVER to Albert Pike's book is not an authoritative source on the symbolism of masonry. None of the book is - although if people were to actually read what he says to just get his opinion, you'd find the exact reasoning for the triangle with rays around it- and it has nothing to do with 33rds being elevated to God.

This kind of circular theory means that every time there is a triangle with light around it, its masonic. Why is it that one french church who uses a triangle to stand for God now equates into the number 33 being elevated into deity? I think you'd need quite a few more examples, from churches of historical importance, to even begin such a theory. And even if you could...

You also assume that anywhere where there is a triangle with something inside it, and little lines around it, that they must all be connected. You also assume that when someone puts something inside a triangle and draws little lines around it, they have all foreknowledge about how this shape was used before. These assumptions are so huge I don't think it even needs to be said how many problems this has.

[edit on 8-3-2008 by pacificwind]

reply posted on 8-3-2008 @ 01:52 PM by lostinspace

reply to post by pacificwind

I thought you might say Albert Pike's book was not an authoritative book. I'm fine with that. It was just his oppinion that the number 33 should be in the triangle of glory. Numerous old churches in Europe displayed images of the triangle with the Hebrew letters YHWH and Albert Pike must have made the connection for himself.

Here's a link to more images of the Tetragrammaton in the triangle within various old churches.

www.angelfire.com...

I think those churches used the triangle to represent the Trinity, which would be three gods in one.

reply posted on 8-3-2008 @ 03:41 PM by JoshNorton

Still doesn't explain the 32nd degree triangle. Again, you're elevating WAY too many people if you're saying that such iconography must be interpreted in that way. Don't think anyone here is saying a 32 is greater than a 3. There's no mystery to 32. There's no exclusivity to 32. Any 3 can become a 32 sitting through a day's worth of theatrics and paying their dues. So if the claim is 33 is elite because their logo is the 33 in a triangle with rays, then by extension 32 is elite because their logo is similar.

reply posted on 8-3-2008 @ 08:21 PM by pacificwind

reply to post by lostinspace

In addition to what Josh has said, your claim still does not make any sense to me for the following reason:

Why is it that you think anytime something is in a triangle, it must be somehow copying the hebrew name for god? Who gets to decide who is copying who, and who gets to say when someone just happened to put something in a triangle because they thought it was pretty? A triangle is by no means an unusual shape, so I would expect to find lots of things inside triangles - just as I find lots of things in circles, squares, and rectangles.

For example, the button on my computer is circular, and it has POWER written inside it. The sun is circular (yes I know its a globe, but I'm talking about from our visual perspective). Does this mean that my power button represents the light of the sun? Is there a solar conspiracy? According to your logic...yes.

My problem with this sort of conspiracy theory is that there is absolutely no basis to establish criteria for when connections are legitimate. What people end up doing is scouring the world for anything that *looks* like a masonic symbol, and assuming that its all connected.

reply posted on 8-3-2008 @ 11:17 PM by ConspiracyNut23

reply to post by Saurus

Thanks for the link Saurus

I found the link to the Rosicrucian Society of Freemasons to be interesting. Although, they say they operate outside regular Masonry, you have to be a Master Mason before being able to join. (and it seems you also have to be a Trinitarian Christian)

2 questions...

1. Are there any other Rosicrucian orders that doesn't require one to be a mason in order to join?

2. What is a Trinitarian Christian? Is it yet another split within Christianity or does it simply represents a Christian who believes in the holy trinity?

If so, why are they being so exclusive? Are they deliberately weeding out Muslims, Jews and other religious nominations? "Stick to your own" kind of thing?

Isn't this borderline religious discrimination? Or do the Rosicrucian lectures require one to have a belief in the trinity in order to comprehend them? What am I missing?

[edit on 9/3/08 by ConspiracyNut23]

reply posted on 9-3-2008 @ 12:53 AM by lostinspace

It is true, the Tetragrammaton is found within other symbols, besides the triangle. If you noticed the majority of the churches with the Tetragrammaton within the triangle are from France. It appears some religious movement initiated those symbols.

I still believe that the belief in the divine Trinity inspired the use of the triangle with rays of glory. Just stick the number 3 inside the triangle and it is no greater than 33. The number 33 would be Trinity-two fold.

I thought that the symbol of the 32nd Degree is an inverted triangle. When the 33rd degree triangle overlaps the 32nd degree triangle they form the Star of David.

reply posted on 9-3-2008 @ 11:44 AM by pacificwind

Originally posted by lostinspace
I still believe that the belief in the divine Trinity inspired the use of the triangle with rays of glory. Just stick the number 3 inside the triangle and it is no greater than 33. The number 33 would be Trinity-two fold.

You are of course, quite right to believe whatever you want - but you've now admitted that there is absolutely no reason to think that these things are linked because they use triangles with writing inside it - and there is no evidence I can find that supports this theory. The most I've been able to find are anti-mason websites who simply claim "OMG! they look similar! must be connected!!"

As for this whole "divine trinity" thing - uh, what? Does this also mean that when someone is charged with 3rd degree murder, that they are symbolically becoming a god? Or that when someone turns 3 years of age, that they are god-like? Under this sort of logic - yes.

I am not aware of the 32nd degree symbol being an "inverted triangle" - but anytime you put two triangles together, you get that shape, whats conspiratorial about it?

reply posted on 9-3-2008 @ 12:03 PM by lostinspace

Fine. Believe whatever you want to believe. This sounds like a one sided discussion. IIHALII was right in another thread about you guys.

-lostinspace

reply posted on 10-3-2008 @ 11:10 AM by Saurus

1. Are there any other Rosicrucian orders that doesn't require one to be a mason in order to join?

The Rosicrucian order is open to both men and women and does not require its members to be masons. As far as I am aware, the Rosicrucian society of freemasons are simply Rosicrucains who are freemasons .

2. What is a Trinitarian Christian? Is it yet another split within Christianity or does it simply represents a Christian who believes in the holy trinity?

A trinitarian Christian supports the doctine of God as a trinity. "Orthodox" Christians are trinitarian.

If so, why are they being so exclusive? Are they deliberately weeding out Muslims, Jews and other religious nominations? "Stick to your own" kind of thing?

I haven't joined the order, and as such, I don't know why the Rosicrucian society of freemasons require their members to be trinitarian Christians.

reply posted on 10-3-2008 @ 11:22 AM by Saurus

Originally posted by lostinspace
reply to post by Saurus

The conspiracy that probably makes the 33rd Degree so special originates from Albert Pike's book entitled Morals and Dogma of the Ancient & Accepted Rite.

lostinspace, I have long tried to understand why non-masons choose the Scottish Rite above the others in their idea of masonic "rank", and I find your explanation quite compelling. (Although Pike is not an authority on masonry, and their reasoning is thus flawed, but it is still a reason.)

However, your argument implies that anyone who does not see Pike as authoritative would not see 33° Scottish as being above craft masonry...

Pages: << 1 2 3 >> ^^TOP^^