Freemasonry - 3rd vs 33rd degree, page 3

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reply posted on 17-8-2009 @ 11:22 AM by Tetragrammaton

You have a simplified translation, and I can see why you would get that impression, but its not the 3 degrees you are speaking of and they say this very clearly; they are using something called the Swedish system.
Basically it says, that in contrast to the original English system, (which has the 3 levels) they use something called a high ranking/level/degree system (directly translated)
These levels build on each other, and are not just a continuation or repetition of the 3 blue lodge degrees.

www.ddfo.dk...

reply posted on 17-8-2009 @ 11:29 AM by Saurus

Hmmm.....

The translation I posted was done by the very site you say differs.

Anyway, here's an explanation of the Swedish system, and it says the same thing as the English translation of the Danish site.

Swedish Freemasonry

reply posted on 17-8-2009 @ 11:47 AM by Tetragrammaton

I disagree and would recommend that you read your own link it says very clearly...

"The Swedish rite is progressive and continuous.
Each degree leads to the next, and each sum up the contents of the proceeding degrees."

They then continue to explain that the degrees are put into 3 divisions, where the one you refer to is the saint Johannes degrees.
Funny enough they might translate their degrees to; apprentice, fellow craft and master mason. But their degrees in their original language means something else!
In fact it translates into; Saint Johannes apprentice, Saint Johannes brother, and Saint Johannes master.

It also continues to state, that members of the Saint Johannes degrees do not retain membership of the Saint Johannes lodge, when they progress. i.e. they aren’t blue lodge degrees, that you just build upon.

I rest my case…

[edit on 17-8-2009 by Tetragrammaton]

reply posted on 17-8-2009 @ 12:02 PM by Tetragrammaton

on a side note, they dont even use the square and compass, but instead use the knights of malta cross...

reply posted on 17-8-2009 @ 12:15 PM by Masonic Light

reply to post by Tetragrammaton

The Swedish Rite actually is in close alliance with the Scottish Rite, where each Rite recognizes an equivalency of each other's degrees.

The first three degrees of the Swedish Rite are equal to the first three degrees of the Scottish Rite, as well as the first three degrees of the York Rite, which are the "Blue Lodges" of the United States (an exception is made for District 18 in New Orleans, where the Blue Lodges are Scottish Rite bodies).

Those bodies using the Swedish Rite naturally require that one maintain membership in the Lodge before moving to the higher degrees in the Chapter.

reply posted on 17-8-2009 @ 12:22 PM by Tetragrammaton

There are 11 degrees in Swedish masonry, now if you where to place them alongside with Scottish masonry, then the first degree of Swedish masonry would be equitant of the first three degrees in the blue lodge..
ie. 3:1 factor.

The last thing you say I don’t think I follow.
I said that they said, that:
“It also continues to state, that members of the Saint Johannes degrees do not retain membership of the Saint Johannes lodge, when they progress. i.e. they aren’t blue lodge degrees, that you just build upon.”

That doesn’t disagree with what you said to be honest.

Where as it is my understanding that a mason of the Scottish rite, retains his membership in the blue lodge, this is not the case in the Swedish rite!

[edit on 17-8-2009 by Tetragrammaton]

reply posted on 17-8-2009 @ 12:35 PM by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
There are 11 degrees in Swedish masonry, now if you where to place them alongside with Scottish masonry, then the first degree of Swedish masonry would be equitant of the first three degrees in the blue lodge..
ie. 3:1 factor.

Actually, the first three degrees of the Swedish Rite equal the first three degrees of the York Rite (American Blue Lodge) and Scottish Rite, so at that point it's 3:3. It's the higher degrees that balance it out.

One who has attained the Eighth Degree in the Swedish Rite may be recognized as Knight Rose Croix, 18°, of the Scottish Rite. One who has attained the Ninth Degree in the Swedish Rite are recognized as Knights Kadosh, 30°, in the Scottish Rite. Similarly, their Tenth Degrees are equally to our 32°'s, and their Eleventh Degrees are equal to our 33°'s.

Where as it is my understanding that a mason of the Scottish rite, retains his membership in the blue lodge, this is not the case in the Swedish rite!

Do you have a reference for that? I'm curious as to what it means. If they did not retain membership in their Blue Lodges, then they would not be able to be recognized as Masons if they visited the United States.

reply posted on 17-8-2009 @ 12:46 PM by Tetragrammaton

I see thank you for explaining that, my reference is the link Saurus found..
Chapter 3 to be exact.
And as you aswell can see, that becomes an oxymoron...

reply posted on 18-8-2009 @ 10:04 AM by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
I see thank you for explaining that, my reference is the link Saurus found..
Chapter 3 to be exact.
And as you aswell can see, that becomes an oxymoron...

Ok, I found it. According to the same page, many Masons in the Swedish Rite are trying to change that because it's causing recognition problems in the US, Canada, UK, and elsewhere.

The Swedish Rite also has other unique characteristics (for example, they only admit Christians to membership).

reply posted on 18-8-2009 @ 02:12 PM by Tetragrammaton

reply to post by Masonic Light

Yes, ML, that’s what currently keeping me from joining, but I have decided to test my case against that rule

and have therefore applied for membership, since I am pretty sure that I rationally and logically can justify, my religious views as compatible with their own.
Also I am baptized; I left the church when I joined the Asatrue belief system.

Nevertheless my point stands, there are differences and not all masons have the to retain membership in the “blue lodges”

Also ML, I would really like your comment on the following, which is all that really matters to me in this debate:

Would you agree with some of your brothers, that you learn everything there is to know about masonry in the first three degrees, and the promotion to higher degrees merely repeats and goes deeper into the first three levels of masonry?

I would really love your comment on this…

Said in a more simple way; is everything in masonry taught in the first three blue lodge degrees?
With everything I mean; esoteric and Gnostic teachings, the symbolism and the geometry etc.

That would make no sense, and would then stand in contrast to all other teachings.

First you must open the initiate’s mind, so it can understand simpler truths, before it can understand complex ones.
Since it is the same we seek; truth and enlightenment.
It would seem rather stupid to try and teach everything there is to know, in the universe, the meaning with life etc. in 3 simple degrees.
That you according to some can complete on the first day….
You must be master teachers as well as master masons

reply posted on 18-8-2009 @ 06:38 PM by Freemason Joe

reply to post by Tetragrammaton

you can think of the first 3 degrees as clift notes if you will it explains alot but in short detail the levels there after give a more detailed explanation, now there are some new things introduced of course but mostly everything ties back to the first 3 degrees

reply posted on 18-8-2009 @ 06:52 PM by network dude

reply to post by Tetragrammaton

I am glad I learned the answer to our question. Please keep us informed on how well your petition is received. I wish you luck.

ML will no doubt answer your question much better than I, but in the first 3 degrees you learn the basics of the masonic ideals. Which is really the golden rule with cool stories to make it tie into things that we understand. In the further degrees, there are much more detailed explanations of things that we cherish in life. (all of us) Then you get to ask people who study masonic literature about things and they point you to the book that will send you into more light. It is just like life in that it is a never ending journey and you will never know it all. What I have found is there is great joy in passing what I have learned on to the next person, and so on. Being able to be active in the degrees of the blue lodge is much more fun than I could have imagined, and I am going to attempt to join a degree team for the Scottish Rite and participate next year. Your journey may be different since you are across the pond. I will look forward to hearing about those differences though. I love to learn.

reply posted on 18-8-2009 @ 08:15 PM by Tetragrammaton

Thank you for your replies, please forgive me, but I would like to wait for ML's reply

reply posted on 19-8-2009 @ 12:29 AM by LookingIntoIt

the scottish rite takes the first 3 degrees and provides more insight. at master mason, we are taught that the degree in itself is 'unfulfilled'.

the scottish rite also adds further knowledge, not just a better understanding of the first three.

reply posted on 19-8-2009 @ 09:08 AM by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Tetragrammaton

Yes, ML, that’s what currently keeping me from joining, but I have decided to test my case against that rule and have therefore applied for membership, since I am pretty sure that I rationally and logically can justify, my religious views as compatible with their own.
Also I am baptized; I left the church when I joined the Asatrue belief system.

I personally am not a fan of their practice of religious exclusivity. I have no idea what Asatrue is, but there's no way I could ever go back to mainstream Christianity.

Also ML, I would really like your comment on the following, which is all that really matters to me in this debate:

Would you agree with some of your brothers, that you learn everything there is to know about masonry in the first three degrees, and the promotion to higher degrees merely repeats and goes deeper into the first three levels of masonry?

I would really love your comment on this…

Said in a more simple way; is everything in masonry taught in the first three blue lodge degrees?
With everything I mean; esoteric and Gnostic teachings, the symbolism and the geometry etc.

Sort of, but it gets tricky. It's important to keep in mind that the first three degrees are the original degrees, meaning that at one time all that's all that existed. All of the necessary symbols are found within the first three degrees, but many have argued that they are not properly explained in those degrees.

Some Masonic scholars, especially Pike, theorized that the people who wrote the lectures for the degrees did not themselves have any idea of what they meant. Conversely, Pike also theorized that maybe they did, and just invented false interpretations to lead the conceited astray.

I tend to believe the first argument, that Webb and Cross (who wrote most of the original lectures) were ignorant of the deeper symbolic meanings. The higher degrees often offer more complex and esoteric interpretations of the symbols, especially in the Scottish Rite. However, with the Swedish Rite being a Christian-only organization, it is very possible that their higher degrees are useless in this regard.

[edit on 19-8-2009 by Masonic Light]

reply posted on 19-8-2009 @ 04:52 PM by adama1

Originally posted by LookingIntoIt
the scottish rite takes the first 3 degrees and provides more insight. at master mason, we are taught that the degree in itself is 'unfulfilled'.

Yes this is what was explained to me ie substitued as the secrets were lost.

reply posted on 20-8-2009 @ 09:06 AM by Tetragrammaton

Thank you ML for explaining that...

I have nothing further to add to this debate

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