Forbidden Egyptology, page 78

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Illicit Antiquities Research


Hawass on illegal digs

"There is currently a case of a mask in the St. Louis Museum of Art, which was stolen from the storage magazine at Saqqara [just south of Cairo] after 1959," Hawass said

Back in Egypt, illegal digs are a continuing problem for Hawass in a land with many valuable artifacts and many poor citizens.

But despite the agency's best efforts, illegal artifacts regularly end up on the international auction block.

According to Hawass, Dieter Arnold, an Egyptologist with the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, recently alerted him about an alabaster vessel in the shape of a duck in the Christie's catalog.

Howdy Spacevisitor

The village is located near the pyramids and has the facilities to support people at work. At that time period except for the very rich and royal who might have a chariot or man carried chair everybody walked. So what is within walking distance?

There are two village found so far, one for craftmen the other for manual laborers

The link

"The workmen at Giza who were accommodated in the dormitories, sleeping close together, numbered as many as 2,000 and they ate in a pillared hall the remains of which were found by Mark Lehner to the east of the galleries.

To the north of the workmen's camp is an artisan village where the technicians were housed with their families. The discovery of this village at Giza shows that each artisan, draftsman, craftsman or sculptor lived in a house that consisted of one room in which to store his material and a court to do his work in daylight. Attached to this area were sleeping quarters, a reception area and cooking quarters. They also had storage rooms for grain and other supplies.

The link

So Spacevisitor what were those specialist village doing next to the pyramids? Oh and they date to the time of the Giza pyramids too.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Howdy Spacevisitor

The village is located near the pyramids and has the facilities to support people at work. At that time period except for the very rich and royal who might have a chariot or man carried chair everybody walked. So what is within walking distance?

There are two village found so far, one for craftmen the other for manual laborers

The link

"The workmen at Giza who were accommodated in the dormitories, sleeping close together, numbered as many as 2,000 and they ate in a pillared hall the remains of which were found by Mark Lehner to the east of the galleries.

To the north of the workmen's camp is an artisan village where the technicians were housed with their families. The discovery of this village at Giza shows that each artisan, draftsman, craftsman or sculptor lived in a house that consisted of one room in which to store his material and a court to do his work in daylight. Attached to this area were sleeping quarters, a reception area and cooking quarters. They also had storage rooms for grain and other supplies.

The link

So Spacevisitor what were those specialist village doing next to the pyramids? Oh and they date to the time of the Giza pyramids too.

Hi Hanslune, long time no see, how are you today, I hope alright.

I don’t know what they where doing there next to the pyramids, they could be worked on so many other things besides the pyramids.
And as Mark Lehner says himself in your linked article,

“Every discovery in the area is an important piece to a puzzle with no written key. "On the site we really have no texts," Lehner says, "so we interpret from what we find on the ground."

So they are only interpreting or guessing without facts about the real meaning of what those workers did next to the pyramids.
But that still doesn’t mean that even if that workmen’s village is located next to the pyramids and that it date to the time of the Giza pyramids the workers who lived there also build the pyramids, in my opinion.
But it is free to interpreted that they did.

Titles such as" overseer of the side of the pyramid,"" director of the draftsmen," "overseer of masonry," "director of workers," and "inspector of the craftsmen" are another indication that those buried in the upper part of the cemetery were of higher status than the people buried below. Perhaps the most important title we found was the "director for the king's work." I believe some of these are the tombs of the artisans who designed and decorated the Giza pyramid complexes and the administrators who oversaw their construction. We need, however, to analyze the names, pottery, and decoration of the tombs further to be sure they date to the time when the Giza pyramids were being built.

The link

BBC link

At Giza the workforce was divided into crews of approximately 2,000 and then sub-divided into named gangs of 1,000: graffiti show that the builders of the third Giza pyramid named themselves the 'Friends of Menkaure' and the 'Drunkards of Menkaure'. These gangs were divided into phyles of roughly 200. Finally the phyles were split into divisions of maybe 20 workers, who were allocated their own specific task and their own project leader.

reply to post by Harte

---

Okay, Dimminutive-For-Richard Head,

Here's a list of folks that Hawass has banned:

British archaeologist Joann Fletcher: LINK

Dietrich Wildung, an eminent scholar who runs the Egyptian Museum in Berlin: LINK

John Anthony West: LINK

Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval: for not denouncing J.A. West

And for a short period ALL GERMANS: He didn't like what they call art

Harte- Myself, I'm empathic enough to be embarrassed for you.

And me? I'm empathetic for all those of us -- and I'm going to out on a limb here and say I speak for the vast majority -- who have to endure your pretentious, insufferable, insulting, snide comments.

The poster you so handily insulted signed up a few moths ago and has managed to glean over 7k points, so if you can;t manage a little respect, how about a little courtesy.

edit: for typo

[edit on 9-9-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
reply to post by Harte

---

Okay, Dimminutive-For-Richard Head,

Here's a list of folks that Hawass has banned:

British archaeologist Joann Fletcher: LINK

For not following protocol.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
Dietrich Wildung, an eminent scholar who runs the Egyptian Museum in Berlin: LINK

For conspiring to steal ancient artifacts (care to defend this?)

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt John Anthony West: LINK

Not West. Ironic that you make this claim, considering West (and Bauval) actually live in Egypt. "Banned?" I think not.

The link claims Gatenbrink was banned, but in fact he was not. He lost his backing from the German museum he was working for and thus had no status to do work in Egypt - according to Egyptian law.

The information regarding this has been posted here at ATS recently.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval: for not denouncing J.A. West

I see nothing in there about either being banned. But it is a fact that neither can, by law, be granted a permit to investigate antiquities in Egypt, unless they can convince the Supreme Council on Antiquities that they (for some reason) deserve a waiver of the criteria.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
And for a short period ALL GERMANS: He didn't like what they call art

You reference an article about Hawass wanting the bust of Nefertiti back from the Germans as evidence he "banned all Germans?"
Please. The Germans absolutely stole this artifact. They (in the article) are refusing to even temporarily return it to Egypt for display at a new museum there, and you're painting Hawass as the bad guy in this dispute? The man is merely doing his job.

Who can blame Hawass if he refused (and he hasn't) to allow teams from other countries that are currently illegally holding Egyptian antiquities to conduct further research in Egypt?

I wonder what you would think had the Germans stolen the Declaration of Independance or the original Magna Carta?

Would animosity toward them be construed as some sort of conspiracy?

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt

Harte- Myself, I'm empathic enough to be embarrassed for you.

And me? I'm empathetic for all those of us -- and I'm going to out on a limb here and say I speak for the vast majority -- who have to endure your pretentious, insufferable, insulting, snide comments.

The poster you so handily insulted signed up a few moths ago and has managed to glean over 7k points, so if you can;t manage a little respect, how about a little courtesy.

Points? Who cares? Points from a mod that believes all this happy crappy? The word "meaningless" overstates the value of these points you hold so dearly.

Take note of the ATS logo at the top of the page. Can you read what it says under it? Are you and others here "insulted" by that?

The post I referred to was filled with pure ignorance. I am fighting that.

You don't like it? Why should I care? You are merely showing your own ignorance in standing up for a post that was completely and utterly ignorant in it's content.

Of course, the supposed "evidence" you submit for Hawass "banning" a bunch of people from (I suppose you mean from conducting digs) Giza or Egypt or whatever (you weren't clear in exactly what they were "banned" from - conveniently unclear, I'd say) betrays either a large dose of ignorance on your own part, or some agenda you are trying to put forward by making false, or misleading, claims.

Harte

Harte -

Re: British archaeologist Joann Fletcher 'not following protocol'.

Jane Brink did not follow the protocol in that she annouced her find and did not tell Hawass personally that she was going to do it – as he is head of the SCA panel of a 100 who made the edict -- One imagines that this is because of his tendancy to take over the projects and take the credit for discoveries in Giza. (There is a pattern here as this is Hawass' excuse for most of the banned explorers we are disucussing.)

Dietrich Wildung, an eminent scholar who runs the Egyptian Museum in Berlin:

Harte: For conspiring to steal ancient artifacts (care to defend this?)

Yeah, actually I do. Here ya go:

guardians.net...
"The ... authorities have incontrovertible evidence that he was involved in the illegal trafficking and buying of antiquities," Hawass wrote in his column for the English edition of the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram. But when asked why Egypt, two years later, still hasn't moved to indict Wildung -- as Italian authorities recently did in bringing a case against Marion True, the J. Paul Getty Museum's curator of antiquities -- Hawass acknowledges that the tapes are hearsay that can't prove a case.

Wildung, once friendly with Hawass, is now banned from excavating in Egypt but denies any wrongdoing. He says Hawass is playing to Egyptian public opinion and perhaps retaliating because Wildung criticized him for empty showmanship on a 2001 TV special that put a robot into a pyramid. "For populistic reasons, he has unfortunately invented these stories, which are 500% against my personal conviction and my understanding as a museum professional," Wildung says from his Munich home.

So Hawass acknowledges there is no proof, it is hearsay . The Defense rests, moving on.

Harte - Not West. Ironic that you make this claim, considering West (and Bauval) actually live in Egypt. "Banned?" I think not.

Well, you think wrong and you know it. They may live there, but they are certainly not being granted permits to work in Giza. It is officially known and accounted in multiple news sources that West and Schoch were forcibly ejected from Giza in 1993 after the ‘water eroded the sphinx’ discoveries, and West (or Schoch) has never been granted a permit again from Hawass despite repeated request.

Harte - The link claims Gatenbrink was banned, but in fact he was not. He lost his backing from the German museum he was working for and thus had no status to do work in Egypt - according to Egyptian law.

First of all he was working for the "The German Archaeological Institute", who got the permits, allowed him to investigate, he made various discoveries, recorded them, told GAI and Hawass and waited for 22 days for an annoucement that was not forthcoming. He then, to my mind rightfully, got paranoid and left Egypt with the footage.

The whole episode devolved into a various and nefarious seeming scandal:

The official reason given by the Egyptian Antiquities Authorities (known as the Supreme Council of Antiquities - SCA - ) was that Gantenbrink leaded the news of the discovery to the British Press in April 1993 and thus, apparently, broke a 'rule' of archaeology. The director of the German Archaeological Institute in Cairo, Dr. Rainer Stadelmann, sided with the Egyptians and condemned Gantenbrink for his press action. Dr. Stadelmann was adamant about the non-importance of the find. "This is not a door; there is nothing behind it." The President of the Supreme Council for Antiquities, Dr. Muhamad Bakr, went as far as claiming a 'hoax'. "The orifice of the shaft is too small for the robot to go through" and accused the "German scientist" of not having the correct 'approvals' from the SCA to carry out the exploration.

Dr. Bakr fired the Chief Inspector of the Giza Pyramid Plateau, Dr. Zahi Hawass, although the official reason given was that a valuable ancient 'statue' under the custody of Hawass was stolen from Giza. Three months later, in June 1993, Dr. Bakr himself was fired and replaced by Dr. Nur El Din. Amid accusations of malpractice and fraud, Dr. Bakr spoke of a "Mafia" which had been involved with the Pyramids for the "last twenty years" . Refusing to give names, Dr. Bakr said, "I wanted the whole matter investigated by the prosecution authorities, but my request was refused."

Meanwhile, Dr. Hawass, who went to the USA, claimed that the discovery of the 'door' was "THE discovery in Egypt," and speculated that there are important artifacts behind it. In early 1994, Dr. Hawass was reinstalled at his post at the Giza Pyramids. Meanwhile, Gantenbrink offered his robot to the Egyptians and also offered to train an Egyptian technician to man the equipment and open the door. The Egyptians rejected the offer; "We are very busy at the moment," replied Dr. Nur El Din. About the same time, Dr. Hawass was to declare that "I do not think this is a 'door' and there is nothing behind it."

In March 1996 however, Dr. Hawass changed his mind once again and declared Gantenbrink's find as being one of huge interest ....

and it goes on and on

I see nothing in there about either being banned. But it is a fact that neither can, by law, be granted a permit to investigate antiquities in Egypt, unless they can convince the Supreme Council on Antiquities that they (for some reason) deserve a waiver of the criteria.

Lame, strawman argument as they will NEVER convice the SCA to grant permits as HAWASS HEADS it. Moving on.

As the the GERMANS, Hawass let them resume exploration after they agreed to halt the art project. So his will was bowed to.

Moving on... to a second post as I am running out of space and I'm not done with you yet.


edit: for typos


[edit on 10-9-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]



[edit on 12-9-2008 by Jbird]

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