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Sun worship or Son worship?

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posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 02:50 AM
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Oh yeah…..you proved me wrong on slave ownership….’slightly’ but are yet to prove me wrong on the very core on the subject of this thread

If Amen Ra was the sun, then all the other gods were also represented as moons, planets, constellations, animals etc….

The pagan gods are also representations of what people viewed around them…..rain gods, sky gods, etc

The Romans and Greeks associated the planets and moons and the ocean as gods , mars, Jupiter, Poseidon, Zeus, Neptune, etc….

These religions and many others all worship many gods, but only to explain the universe and its origins eg. In Greece Chaos is the universe….or the creator of the universe….

All your god is, Jesus – god – the holy spirit is an idea, creation, representation of mans understanding of the world and universe and then simplified into beings that we can associate ourselves with when identified in human form.

The Holy Spirit is represented as everything that is spiritual in the universe, Jesus as the human form of the spirit that we can associate ourselves with just like Ra, Vishnu, Mars and many others and lastly god as the supreme everything that creating everything and is everything. A concept used over 3000 years ago to explain everything because we didn’t have the knowledge, the understanding or science to explain how the world and the universe works….eg. In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth in six days.

Do you get it now…..? Your god is the same as every other, a representation of the universe……


I'm basically being told, Mars, Horus, Jesus, Krishna, Zeus, and company are all the same thing because we say so and that's the way it is.


YES…………………… Don’t you see the logic……….

"DON’T LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHEN YOU CAN SEE A CLEAR PATH"


[edit on 9-2-2008 by andre18]




posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 02:52 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 



Originally posted by AshleyD
Special note: Pay special attention to the external quotes you cited. They make it pretty clear the site is not the entire Bible but excerpts. Excerpts do not provide the context. Again, it is a clever website but what is more important: An illustrated website using Legos or the Bible itself? Reality check.
The list goes on. Yes, there are some dastardly deeds mentioned in the Old Testament that are appalling at first (and second and third) glance but nothing ever occurred arbitrarily. Some laws offend our modern senses but lucky for us they have been replaced by Jesus' progressive revelations as society progressed, we were released from the bondage of the law, and as we were to be called to a higher standard of peace.


I've read a good portion of some segments of the bible, like for example large parts of genesis. The accounts given in the brick testament, seem pretty similar, truthful, and accurate to what I recall from what I recall.


With regards to killing babies, it may have said it was evil in the eyes of the lord ,in that particular instance/event, but in another passage God commanded the killing of children, babies, etc.

God's commandment:


'"So go now and attack the Amalekites. Put them under the curse of destruction. Kill the men, women, children, and babies, cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys. Spare no one."'1 Samuel 15:2-3


Spare no one, means even pregnant women were to be put to death according to the order.

Even if they did kill children and women in other nations, God should've at least spared the children, if not the babies in his genocide orders.


But that was not what I meant when I said killing babies, I meant when God personally killed a baby despite being implored to spare him.

As for the law, you said it was hyperbole, but I'm still not sure whether it is truly abolished:




Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of Moses or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. -[JESUS] Matthew 5:17



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by andre18
Oh yeah…..you proved me wrong on slave ownership….’slightly’ but are yet to prove me wrong on the very core on the subject of this thread

If Amen Ra was the sun, then all the other gods were also represented as moons, planets, constellations, animals etc….


Translation: "You made a good point in refuting some of my Biblical criticisms so now I'm going to resort back to my favorite argument when I get stuck. And that is, 'It doesn't matter because God doesn't exist.'" Since that is what you always fall back on, there really is no point in discussing this with you any further. Christians do not believe the sun, moon, planets, stars, and universe are gods or represent gods. We believe our God created them.


Originally posted by Xenogears
God's commandment:
'"So go now and attack the Amalekites. Put them under the curse of destruction. Kill the men, women, children, and babies, cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys. Spare no one."'1 Samuel 15:2-3


That quote is totally butchered and you left out why this occurred. I don't know how it could have been an accident because the following is given right in between the sentences you quoted. No need to even look at other passages to find it: "...I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came out up from Egypt...."

So what was going on? The Amalekites had been mercilessly slaughtering the Israelites: Men, women, children, infants, and livestock. The first attacks from the Amalekites upon the Hebrews is in Exodus. The struggle had been going on with them all that time. They refused peace treaties and kept attacking the Hebrews. When the Jews had just been released from Egypt, they were sick, scared, hungry, and worn down after generations of brutal slavery in Egypt. The Amalekites took advantage of their weakness and kept attacking them. After giving them two generations to repent, God finally allowed the Jews to defend themselves.

Please start looking at the context before posting any more one sided accusations and misquotes.


Even if they did kill children and women in other nations, God should've at least spared the children, if not the babies in his genocide orders.


You know, it's funny you say that because in another passage God did tell the Hebrews to spare the women, children, and livestock but critics of the Bible say, "The Hebrews took them for sex slaves!" even though this is not remotely mentioned in the Bible.


As for the law, you said it was hyperbole, but I'm still not sure whether it is truly abolished:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of Moses or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. -[JESUS] Matthew 5:17


Then you don't know the Bible (no offense). But I've explained this repeatedly what this means on other threads. For 2,000 years Christians have not lived by the OT Law. Why not? Because we understand what this means and the dozens of other passages that mention we are now under grace and not the Law.

Quick rundown: Jesus did not "abolish" the law or its principles. He fulfilled them by paying the debt (Law) in full. He did not cancel the debt for we are still sinners in need of a redeemer/salvation. That is what the Law was supposed to be in OT times. Also remember the OT law was never meant to be permanent but a temporary solution until the promises Messiah, Jesus, came. But in NT times, Jesus fulfilled the foreshadowing of the Law, the principles of sin atonement, overcame death, and restored us in a personal relationship with God while the people in OT times could only appoint priests to fulfill such roles. He did not 'abolish' it because he 'fulfilled' it by becoming our link to God which the Law foreshadowed. Remember, "It is finished."

[edit on 2/9/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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The quote doesn't seem butchered to me, if it lacks the prior detail that someone did something to the jews(the brick testament suggests the offense for which this was done took place centuries prior to it)

Here's what's found on other bibles


1. put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "1 Samuel 15 (New International Version)

2. put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"1 Samuel 15 (New American Standard Bible)

3. kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.1 Samuel 15 (Amplified Bible)

4. Do not spare them,(D) but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"1 Samuel 15 (English Standard Version)

5. Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Slaughter their cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys."1 Samuel 15 (Contemporary English Version)


Five different bibles say the exact same thing. There is no justification for the mass murdering of babies, that's a fact, and no context will change that fact.

As for the lack of practicing the LAW it seems to me, some early christians just used debating acrobatics to get around it, but the text can legitimately be interpreted to allow the practice of the laws. It seems some early christians took it out to allow non-jewish converts to more easily convert and follow the christian faith.

It seems Paul was one of the seeds of this, and even he sometimes accepted the law:


Paul, on the other hand, not only did not object to the observance of the Mosaic Law, as long as it did not interfere with the liberty of the Gentiles, but he conformed to its prescriptions when occasion required-Catholic Encyclopedia


I like the following quote

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is sometimes portrayed as referring to people he sees as wicked with the term (εργαζομενοι την ανομιαν) - e.g. Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 13:40-43. Due to this negative context the term has almost always been translated as evildoers, though it literally means workers of lawlessness.[15] In other words, Matthew appears to present Jesus as equating wickedness with encouraging antinomianism[what Paul did with regard to the law-my note]. -link



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 07:53 PM
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It was not the actual quote because this is what you said verses 2-3 said:


Originally posted by Xenogears
'"So go now and attack the Amalekites. Put them under the curse of destruction. Kill the men, women, children, and babies, cattle, sheep, camels, and donkeys. Spare no one."'1 Samuel 15:2-3


But this is what verses 2-3 actually say:

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them. Put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

It doesn't make it sound any merrier but at least it puts it into context along with some other passages as to what the Amalekites were doing to the Jews ever since they left Egypt. Now it was a couple of centuries later all the way into the days of Samuel and they were still killing the Hebrews without mercy, including children. It was not an arbitrary decision as I explain above. The Amalekites were constantly killing the Hebrew men, women, children, infants, and livestock so under the Old Testament "eye for an eye" philosophy, the same was done to them.

They turned down the peace treaties, attacked the Hebrews repeatedly, showed them no mercy, slaughtered the Jews even their children, etc. So the Israelites declared war against them. It is sad but war never gives us a warm feeling in the pits of our stomach. The Jews had been slaughtered by the Amalekites since the Exodus and it was now generations later and they still hadn't stopped. Saddening and grievous. Some speculate they were Nephilim descendants (I do not know this for sure- just giving you a perspective) and that is why they were to be completely wiped out. But it seems to me the constant slaughter against the Jews made them finally say, "Enough!"

HERE is an article that might help put it into perspective for you. It explains the circumstances very, very well. Hope that helps, Hon.

[edit on 2/9/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 01:13 AM
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Translation: "You made a good point in refuting some of my Biblical criticisms so now I'm going to resort back to my favorite argument when I get stuck. And that is, 'It doesn't matter because God doesn't exist.'" Since that is what you always fall back on, there really is no point in discussing this with you any further. Christians do not believe the sun, moon, planets, stars, and universe are gods or represent gods. We believe our God created them.


Why would I resort back to something if I'm the one that "made a good point in refuting some of my Biblical criticisms"...? If anything you should be resorting back to what ever...... You believe in god I don't, simple. My point is with the above post is I’m using logic to prove you wrong and you simply ignore it. Of course "Christians do not believe the sun, moon, planets, stars, and universe are gods or represent gods" because if they did they wouldn't be Christian....


Pagans believe in their own beliefs but just because they don't believe in yours doesn't mean their right and you're wrong. If Christians don't believe in the planets and the elements of the earth representing gods, doesn't mean just because they don't believe in that, that it's not true. You've got to look at the evidence, Simply saying I’m a Christian so i don't believe in it doesn't make you correct about your beliefs just because you believe it to be true....

"We believe our God created them" So are you officially saying that on behalf of all the Christians in the world.....?
And are you also saying that you're god created these other planetary gods..? What...but I thought you said there was only one god. make up your mind



posted on Feb, 10 2008 @ 07:15 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


It doesn't specifically say they were under constant war with them, it just says they were attacked when leaving Egypt( 400 years prior, according to brick, iirc). That may've been the historical context but it doesn't appear to be in that particular verse, other verses are required to give it such context. But again such context does not justify killing babies, I went to your link it seems to imply this is a kind of merciful necessary kill, not that I agree with it but anyway God also personally killed a jewish baby himself, iirc.

[edit on 10-2-2008 by Xenogears]

[edit on 10-2-2008 by Xenogears]



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 09:18 AM
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Egyptian book of the dead states, "Horus, born of the Virgin ISIS on Dec 25th, baptized by ANUP at 30 yrs old, had 12 disciples he travelled with and performed miricles, they called HORUS the LIGHT OF THE WORLD, he was crucified then rose again 3 days later and went to "heaven".... that's the story of HORUS,.....


Where is this copy of the "Book of the Dead" that says this?

Sorry, but this is rubbish.

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Youre a catholic right? Christian? Bible reader.....god fearing correct?
Well...your cross is a pagan symbol. This is no secret and if you try to refute that you are just practicing skeptical masturbation and nothing more. We all know this about our religions or at least we should....the most prominant symbol in all of the worlds religions (the cross)
has its roots in a form of worship that existed on this planet that was DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE STARS AND CONSTELLATIONS!!
Therefore.....at this point after all the lies from organized religion that seekds to divide the race and not unite it, we cannot make too many assumptions about who we are and where we came from. Especially not people who have spent their sheltered lives in faith based systems not being exposed to any sort of reliable reasoning or truth based knowledge....just secret agendas for profit and control.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by roger_pearse
 


Not rubbish...the ancient egyptian religions and its mystical schools explain everything about the origin of religion and the human race as we know it. The chamber of the deep will be revealed at the end of the century. Search for it and read. Ever wonder why the egyptian government wont let anyone open the secret compartments under the sphinx? Those places go back over 10,000 years BC!!! All secrets lie under there and they know it. Snap out of it people. We shouldnt be arguing about these things anymore seriously.....when you seek divisions you will be divided and hence the failure of world peace and compassion.\-



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by andre18
 


Such an awful case of word twisting really merits no response other than this one. I never said God created the pagan gods.

reply to post by Xenogears
 


Yes it does- in other passages and OT books it does. But if you misquote so terribly the passage you offer, how could I expect you to go and read other passages referring to the Amalekites?

reply to post by roger_pearse
 


You are absolutely correct. It mentions no such thing as has been proven many times in this thread and others. Horus was not crucified, did not have 12 disciples, his mother was not a virgin, he was not born on December 25th, etc. The critics who repeat such things are like parrots who only repeat what they are told because they never bother to look up the facts for themselves. If they did, they would see such things were never written or believed about Horus.

reply to post by GUICE2
 


I am absolutely not a Catholic. And everything else you mentioned has already been refuted or addressed so there is no reason in repeating myself.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:16 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


What is to refute my friend? YOu look at an ancient zodiac symbol and SEE the cross. You look at ancient egyptian beleif structures and SEE the cross. Then you look at current religions and SEE the cross.....what do you infer from that then? Just some people BORROWING the symbol and not the attached meaning? OR people using the symbol because it was misconstrued over time because of how EFFED up society is?
How can you refute ancient texts and findings which speak of teachings that are not inherent within our own ACCEPTED beleif structures just because of that fact? Its a basic reasoning process....i see that symbol in ancient times and see it now and ask why. Well....the council of nicea is probably why we see pagan symbols in religion today....dont you agree? What is to refute herE? How can you refute the fact that actual gods and godesses directly relate to star positions, earth's positions, the universem the moon planets and nature? What is to refute about those connections? Are you saying that they are all just stories with a message? That is true as well and would be a great argument if there was no base in science and actual reality but there is. Everything is a metaphor that was filtered to fit the beleive structures that we all have now. NONE of them are totally right....but still refuting some of these things is almost as bad as saying civilization was created in 7 days or that all infidels must die. divisions sought will lead to wars and battles lost.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Its funny how people who claim a fiath based religion actually CLAIM these symbols as their own and that they only represent their beleifs. HAHAHAH.....if only half the catholics new the cross they put on their forehead on ask wednesday was an actual ancient representation for the sun they would FREAK OUT!! HAHAHAHAH....how do you refute that? Seriously.....its obvious someone changed the meanings of those symbols or CREATED the meanings and built the beleif structures around them in order to cover up what they actually mean. Just use your reasoning skills and not what you were taught in class or at a university or by a priest, mother fater, boss...etc. Knowledge and science have always fought against religion and faith for a good REASON. There is a purpose. Its not about beleiving its about being told, taught and born into beleiveing. Seriously everyone needs to wake up. No divisions in the human race is necessarry....our religions inherently divide us and therefore they defeat their own purpose. How can people not see the many contradicting ideals in most of the world's organized religions? I dont get such ignorance...its like lewis black when he talks about people who beleive in creationism and how it would just throw a million year old fossil over their head.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:23 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Such an awful case of word twisting really merits no response other than this one. I never said God created the pagan gods.



The point is that the ORIGIN of these pagan gods is the same ORIGIN of our religious symbols, gods, angels, stories. Dont you see that? They all point towards the stars regarding creation and that is it. All information about the wars that were fought, the races that were created and extraterrestrial breeding to create humanity are all considered myths and that is ok for now until they are exposed. Yet until then...all we actually have PROOF for is that our religions point to the stars and that is it.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:44 PM
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reply to post by roger_pearse
 


Not even close to rubbish....have you ever studied egyptology? Not even close to rubbish. Osirus and horus the focal points of these beleive structures that the people worshipped. Perhaps the missconception is that these people were to be worshipped and not the other way around? What makes you think that our gods are just privaledged humans who have the ability to study the mystical beleifs? The ancient beleifs of our world that hold information which holds more water in the game of earthly history purely because of the fact that it is so so old? The problem is that all organized religion cant accept new info because it goes against dogma. So they are all slaves to dogma just like we are slaves to the almighty monetary system. WAKE UP EVERYONE!
How many more jesus's mohhammeds, horus', osirus', and 911's do we have to go through to understand the error or our current societal ways? Divisions kill us all.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by andre18
 


You are right about how these gods are representations even if they existed. Yet i assure you that they are not made up....this is why the divinity of jesus christ was so hotly debated in the council of nicea. Why do you think? Well....if the working populace (have nots) understood that they themselves are divine because of their human nature and their history they will not want to be controlled anymore. This is why freethinkers, scientists, and philosophers were always so dangerous to the elite's....because they knew the secret to life and that it all lay within the human heart, mind and soul, not in some book or church. THAT IS THE POINT PEOPLE! If we all united and began to love each other as we should love ourselves we can fix the world's problems.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


If you look at the zodiac, the closest resemblance you will see is Odin's symbol and the Egyptians had the ankh. All have completely different symbolisms. Again I say, the t, x, star, triangle, circle, etc. to infinity is used all over the world for many different symbolisms. Is the American flag satanic because it contains five pointed stars and the satanic star has five points? No. And that is as much detail as I'm going into because I've explained the rest in depth so many times it's irritating to be addressed with the same tired arguments repeatedly.

reply to post by GUICE2
 


Ask a Catholic. I'm not Catholic.

reply to post by GUICE2
 


The Gospel in the Stars. You can see it one way, I'll see it another. You say Christianity was taken from astrology and I can say astronomy represents the Gospel story. Neither of us will win. It also goes back to the Hebrew Mazzaroth but very few people are aware of this fact.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


So which came first...man to write the gospel story and preserve it over millions of years? OOOOOOORRRR.......the stars and the sun?
Since you are saying that the existence of the stars and the sun is PROOF that there is a god i say to you this....the only reason why we humans THINK there is a god is because of our religions right? Well really its because of the human need for truth and knowledge but for our soceities purposes the idea of a god or supreme being comes from the religous beleifs no matter how far back you go. The problem is that the ancient egyptians were "religious" in the same sense that we were. Did you notice how the so called "slaves" were buried? im sure someone brought that up and how they are buried close to the pyramid which is only RESERVED for the DIVINE beings like the pharoah. WOW....if there was ever any more proof that the actualy message of all religions is that we ourselves are divine, so many people's minds would change. You ever think that our religions were so miscontrued by politics and monetary gain that anything you ever knew about "god" was CREATED for you to beleive?
You beleive the stars and "heavens" were created for us as a message right? You did say they represent the "gospel" but whose gospel? Who made it up? Who wrote it? Did it come from the same line of beleifs that were created during the council of nicea? Because if they did all that would mean that the so called "new" teachings were just a ruse to fool the populace once again from actually learning the truth. I mean, how much more clear can the reasoning of cause and effect be? The symbol of the cross would not exist if it werent for ancient pagan sybmols and beleife structures so how can you just dismiss it as a random figure that was picked up by so many religions just because it looked pretty? That doesnt make sense....it had to be created for us and given meaning before we could adapt it anywhere else and since the FIRST meaning of the symbol (just look at the dates in egyptology) directly represented the sun therefore we can now DEDUCE through REASONING and not blind faith that the symbol of the cross is nothing more than that right? I mean...since the most ancient form of this symbol already had the most realistic meaning attached to it (that of it being a symbol forthe sun which we can all SEE) then i would have to say that this is all it was really meant to represent and everything else is a metaphor. What do you think? Do you see what i mean here? Just because man changed the meaning for the symbol and taught others the same doesnt mean its what it was intentionally meant to be. This isnt an argument about faith or beleif, its about fact. What the symbol MEANs to each of us can be different but what it is supposed to represent should not change to fit the agendas of the elites. They need you to think that you cannot be divine, they need you to have faith in a supreme being for all questions of the universe they dont want you to be able to answer. THey need you to be ignorant and fight with me and other people because the greates tool ever used to conquer the world was the forces of DIVIDE AND CONQUER. SO.....we already lose my friend. Conversations about whose religion or beleif structure is right are all futile. The truth hurts......



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 



The Gospel in the Stars. You can see it one way, I'll see it another. You say Christianity was taken from astrology and I can say astronomy represents the Gospel story. Neither of us will win. It also goes back to the Hebrew Mazzaroth but very few people are aware of this fact.



Its not that it was taken from the astronomy its that they exist congruently. THe stars existence is not dependent upon the existence of religion. As humans, we do not and would not understand our true purpose and origins because of the fact that we are 3 dimensional beings ( our minds can evolve higher but we are all stuck in a 3 dimenstional manifestation of all higher dimensional existences forces. For this reason we cannot fully understand all....so whoever created the heavens or whoever understands them knows the human condition to no end and knows how the human mind comprehends. Hence the creation of the religions of the world and its prophets to pass along the message to those of us who are too wrapped up in our physical realities to realize what is going on around us. Yet governments and the elites have always manipulated the message with the agenda of control. The slaves werent slaves they were people. They didnt worship their leaders but they worked together with them to gain the knowledge of the stars because that is where our origins lie. It wasnt about money or power for them.....why else would you bury your slaves in a divine resting place? Think about that one......that says so much about our history you just have to put the pieces into place. SEriously, study the history of the struggle between science and religion and also look into the agendas behind monetary systems and why they are important to world domination of both body and mind.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


Paragraphs are fun, and the return key on keyboard is such a nice shape, it feels nice when you use it, honest.



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