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Sun worship or Son worship?

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posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Also....the symbol you have missunderstood to be satanic is not even close my friend. THat is also a FACT.....you see how you have been a victim of thought manipulation? The pentagram is and was never meant to be a symbol for any evil worship. People are ignorant remember?? Its funny to a point you know but when you realize that its the division that kills human life you start to see them everywhere and human suffering keeps you up at night. Trust me....its all i think about. I cant help it. This is the red pill (or was it blue?) morpheus is talking about. You have to make the choice to wake up and realize that your surroundings are CREATED for you and to manipulate you at the same time. Once you realize this you will actually wake up and then the process of true life begins. You have to learn to walk all over again and trust me when i say, its the hardes thing to do ever. So....this is why people stick to their comfortable jobs, religions, and political beleifs, because the truth is too damn large for one human mind to grasp. Do you get what im saying now? This conversation about religion transcends a pissing contest.....we have to realize why we are here and how we get to where we should be going.
Here is a hint....money is holding the entire human race back.




posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by VelvetSplash
 


I was going to say the same thing but felt it would be too mean so I gave you a star instead. My eyeballs are getting old so no paragraphs prevent me from reading the entire comment. I scan the first few lines of such comments, reply to what I can before my eyes start hurting, then move along. lol Such a cop out, I know, but all caps replies have the same effect on these aging eye balls. Too hard to read, to hard to reply to!



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by VelvetSplash
 


hahahahaaa....sorry people. At work and you know what they say about being human at work right? Its just too unproductive so all of these "extracurricular" activites have to be done with haste. Sorry about not following a grammatical handbook.

The message is what counts though everyone so dont get so hung up on context. We really should be discussing these issues in person like the greatest philosophical minds of our times had done. They too wanted to end human suffering and they too have been persecuted for finding the light. As i will be in the future and as those who also awake will be.

Happy? Paragraphs and indentations....



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


I have enjoyed your posts in this thread, you offer a rational and educated christian voice that I have found very refreshing.

I have no difficulty believing that a man that we now know as Jesus existed. I also believe that the words attributed to this man are to the benefit of us all, but I also believe that some of the stories that have emerged around Jesus are inherited from other sources or that Jesus used those stories to communicate his message. For instance I have no difficulty seeing common themes in the story of Jesus and that of Horus.

I realise that this may be a personal question but do you believe (literally as opposed to figuratively) that Jesus was the son of God? Do you believe in the immaculate conception?

These are honest questions, I have no agenda, I am simply interested in you and what frames beliefs plus I am largely ignorant of religious practices and doctrines. It is as alien to me as well, aliens...difference is good though it is what builds great conversations


(And as my Mum always said, you won't find out anything unless you ask
)

Best wishes



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Who ever said jesus was a compilation of pagan myths? Thats a werid one....your are right though. I clicked on some of the links in your signature and understood the message.

Jesus christ was a man and nothing else....in fact, his name was probably not even jesus christ or at least its nothing divine. We know that name actually refers to a status right? The sanctified one? It was given to people before this mans time so lets not hold ourselves to that name ok?

THe man known as jesus was a man like you and me who wanted to seek the truth. He was the son of "wealthy" people which is why he was able to travel the world in search of the mystic religions. HE actually figured out all this stuff as well before we all did so the issue isnt proving that he was a culmination of pagan myths. The issue is that HE made this revelation as well and started preaching to the people about how their ways will lead to the destruction of human life.

The best way to show them was to die for them so in a sense he did die for our sins.....get it? That whole lie about being BORN with sin is a scare tactic to hold back the human soulf from recognizing its divine existence. Zeitgeist wasnt about directly attaching jesus with the zodiac...you missed the point.


THE MESSAGE OF ZEITGEIST WAS TO CHANGE THE WAY YOU THINK!!!
I dont think anyone got it......its pretty damn sad.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


You got it right my friend....it was never about the person or the prophet but was about the message which we continue to miss day after day.

Divisions exist within nature and that is a fact but the divisions i speak of are man made with the agenda of manipulation. Otherwise, differences are good because as you said they lead to questions and those lead to answers and that (if left un-manipulated) will ead to the pure truth which directly leads to true freedom. REason and deduction are amazing....the only faith we should have is the faith in ourselves and the people around us because we and they are all that matter in this world. Not money, not cars, not wars or nationality, not tv shows, movies or celebrities....but the human being.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


Too cute! No worries, though. Comments without paragraphs or all caps just kill the chance of replies especially from us old fogies... at the ripe old age of 28.


reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Hey There. Thanks. Not sure what you're asking, though. If you've been keeping up with this thread (and it sounds like it) then you know what I pointed out about the Horus allegations. Yes, I do beleive Jesus was the Son of God as well as born of a virgin. Even secular sources around the time were aware of the virgin birth story but they tried to come up with alternate explanations. Like Jesus was a bastard or Mary had been raped but hid the fact to hide the shame.

An important thing to remember is the Messianic prophecies. Again, the virgin birth, crucifixion, being the Son of God, being born in Bethlehem, announced by a star, etc., were not the invention of first century Christians. Such things had been foretold centuries in advance. It wasn't a matter of the apostles or early church fathers sitting around in meetings taking things from pagan figures like Horus, Krishna, Mithras, Buddha, and company to say, "Hey! This little bit about Krishna sounds interesting- let's use that. Oh, this part about Horus sounds cool- let's use that. Mithras- now there is a cool dude. Let's take a little bit from him." There are over 300 Messianic prophecies concerning the future Messiah. The apostles never had to invent anything. It was all foretold.

But this is why so many people try to use the "Jesus never existed" argument in spite of the pretty convincing evidence. They think the Jews were so disappointed by the Messiah not appearing at the appointed time (remember, He was prophesied to the year in Daniel) so they made up a figure to keep the Jews from becoming disheartened. A totally ridiculous accusation but some put the conspiracy forth. They think they invented Jesus based on the prophecies and only claimed they were fulfilled. Totally opposite from the pagan myth accusation. It seems anyone is willing to pull something out of their behinds in order to dismiss the facts.

Remember that Billy Meier guy? He even claimed to have found 1st century drawings and documents stating Jesus had been an alien. Later they were proven beyond all doubt to be fakes. People are willing to push forth anything knowing it is false from the start. Kersey Graves, Zeitgeist, Gerald Massey, Acharya S., etc. They're all the same. I guess when you have no solid objections you have to resort to making things up for going off the most loose evidence possible to justify your doubt.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


An important thing to remember is the Messianic prophecies. Again, the virgin birth, crucifixion, being the Son of God, being born in Bethlehem, announced by a star, etc., were not the invention of first century Christians. Such things had been foretold centuries in advance. It wasn't a matter of the apostles or early church fathers sitting around in meetings taking things from pagan figures like Horus, Krishna, Mithras, Buddha, and company to say, "Hey! This little bit about Krishna sounds interesting- let's use that. Oh, this part about Horus sounds cool- let's use that. Mithras- now there is a cool dude. Let's take a little bit from him." There are over 300 Messianic prophecies concerning the future Messiah. The apostles never had to invent anything. It was all foretold.






You are absolutely right...it wasnt about combining facts to create jesus and catholocism. It was about making sure the PEOPLE who were to be controlled by the current ZEITGEIST did learn the truth about their origins as a race on this planet. Dont you see that? Why are you focusing on so much filtered writings? The bible was created during the council of nicea not to combine the different teachings of pagan religions but to manipulate the thought process of those who would put their faith in the book itself and not its message. Why doesnt anyone see this? It wasnt about jesus or whether or not he was real so we have to stop fighting about that because that argument is moot.

He existed to give us a message as does all knowledge in our world. The greatest secret was that WE can arrive at the same conclusions that he and other prophets did. THAT is why we see these similarities....they manipulated the situation so much so that the message was deeply confused in our own hearts and minds. They made us beleive that we had to pledge our existence to a higher being and worship him instead of our own existence and therefore everything done accomplishes the agendas of a few and not a whole. Dont you see that this was a message to the human race and not a description of a way of life and how to separate yourself from people? If someone is "saved" because of religion they are dillusional to think it was a building and a priest that had done so. They had the power to make the changes within themselves, this is why we all have free will and why all those arguments about predetermination are null and void.

THe outcomes are not set but the situations are, now we CHOOSE to deal with them and overcome obstacles leads to different possible outcomes. This is how it works on the subatomic level so why not on the human level? After all, everyone and everything is made up of subatomic quantum particles arent they? And if they have forces that hold them together and we are all made up of them arent we guided by the same forces? The trick is identifying the forces and describing them properly to the general public. That is where many have gone wrong becuase of greed and the thirst for power over mankind.

DO any of you at least see a hint of what im trying to say here regardless of my haste in writing it down?



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Thank you for your candour. Sometimes I miss the subtleties and prefer to rely on a straight answer to a straight question.

All the best



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Your wrong with zeitgeist though....it was pointing out our ironies as a race of humans. THats all....it didnt make any difinitive statements about religion but used reason from the FACTS that are available to arrive at a conclusion.
The reasons people misinterpret these messages are far too many to list but the main one is divisions. WE are divided physically where we live and go to work and we are especially divided in thought. Once the thought that creates the inherent societal divisions has been created whoever is to benefit just has to sit back and watch the peons fight amongst themselves. They pluck the strings....not us. We have a bad habit of accepting authority as truth and not the other way around.
PLEASE SOMEONE HAS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IM SAYING HERE!
THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!!!


Its not about me or you or our religious beleifes because we all share the same goal and that is to evolve and survive as a race of people. So get over all of your labels, your societal contexts and your accepted truths for powers of authority and keep digging until you find the facts and not some author's opinion purely made for the gain of wealth. You find people who live for life and not money and you will find the truth. THats why JESUS overturned the money changers tables....it was a message meant to shock us out of our tightly knit bubbles.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
You are absolutely right...it wasnt about combining facts to create jesus and catholocism. It was about making sure the PEOPLE who were to be controlled by the current ZEITGEIST did learn the truth about their origins as a race on this planet. Dont you see that? Why are you focusing on so much filtered writings? The bible was created during the council of nicea not to combine the different teachings of pagan religions but to manipulate the thought process of those who would put their faith in the book itself and not its message. Why doesnt anyone see this? It wasnt about jesus or whether or not he was real so we have to stop fighting about that because that argument is moot.


1) You cannot control someone who is saved through grace and who has a personal relationship with their God. Some people try to control the masses through the Bible and some people allow themselves to be controlled. But others see what the Bible is saying: No man can come in between unless we let them. Why was the Bible practically illegal to own during the middle ages? Because it would have shown the papacy to be wrong and totally unnecessary.

2) Check out my signature links about the canon. I've explained it so many times and how it wasn't as difficult as some think. Or HERE and HERE and HERE where I summarize some things. Not to be evasive but I've explained the canonization process so many times and am ready to discuss something that will not make me sound like a robot for having to say the same thing over and over. Others and myself have addressed the issue literally dozens of times on ATS not to mention the hundreds of apologetic websites available on the internet that address this issue. Also not to mention the minutes from the council still exist and are posted online as well as the testimony of the original apostolic authorship witnesses. The canon is not the problem.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
Your wrong with zeitgeist though....it was pointing out our ironies as a race of humans. THats all....it didnt make any difinitive statements about religion but used reason from the FACTS that are available to arrive at a conclusion.


Facts? My dear they are anything but facts. I promise you. I left THIS reply earlier to this thread- and that was only an examination of the three first minutes of material. If they can get that much wrong, then there is no point in giving it the benefit of the doubt for the rest of its material. Also check out the link in my signature about Zeitgeist and pagan/sun worship parallels. It's old news that has been refuted. It's not facts.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


What are you talking about? Im talking about one symbol that was CREATED for a purpose in ancient ancient times to represent the sun.
NOW we have religions that use it as a representation for the sun....i mean SON. What is to refute? Did you refute the FACT that this is a correlation? Or did you refute the opinions other people have made?
This correlation exists....i know you see it you just arent reasoning outside of the christian box which didnt exist 10000 years ago correct? So any information about human origins from that time period has been refuted by new information created and put forth in the biblical cannon? Cant you see how this is not a good reasoning process? What is to refute here? I have no agenda other than unity like the man christ did.....hey guess what, since i love unconditionally i am like christ right? Therefore i am christ because christ was just a title for the sanctified one right? Im not sure about what it meant but i know that it was a title used before jesus appeared. So what does this mean......am i a god now? Am i divine?
I sure am....and if i am then i as a human made the realization that i do not need the bible to teach me anymore, especially when the ENTIRE christian religion was CREATED and named by pagan leaders.

As i said in my other response this doesnt mean they made all of the people and the stories...it just means they were packaging it in a cleaner way so people like you and me would understand it and want to subscribe to it without asking questions. So let me ask you two questions that i actually want you to answer: 1. how do you find an answer to something you are told exists but we cannot see and cannot be like? 2. Why do you think the divinity of the man Jesus Christ was so hotly debated during the council of NIcea where we see the biblical cannon being solidified into christianity?
I know why and i have stated why which makes sense according to reason and knowledge. Why do you think? Remember...they were convening to create beleifs for the whole world, even people who wouldnt be christian. This was to make sure that the illusion is complete.....think about it and start asking yourself why ancient symbols that had attached meanings to them now 10k years later mean something different in a beleif structure that condmens the origins of the very same symbols it now uses. What a huge contradiction.....its laughable sometimes when roman catholics speak of life.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
What are you talking about? Im talking about one symbol that was CREATED for a purpose in ancient ancient times to represent the sun.
NOW we have religions that use it as a representation for the sun....i mean SON. What is to refute? Did you refute the FACT that this is a correlation? Or did you refute the opinions other people have made?


I must admit you have me completely confused. Are you trying to point out the similarity between SON and SUN? Or that the ancients worshiped the sun therefore Christianity must be based on it as well? Both of those arguments have been answered repeatedly so I don't know what you are asking.


This correlation exists....i know you see it you just arent reasoning outside of the christian box which didnt exist 10000 years ago correct? So any information about human origins from that time period has been refuted by new information created and put forth in the biblical cannon? Cant you see how this is not a good reasoning process?


But the creation story of Genesis was not created by Christians. It was part of the Jewish Tanakh that was included in the Christian cannon. I still have no idea what you are trying to imply- that Christians later altered the creation accounts?


I sure am....and if i am then i as a human made the realization that i do not need the bible to teach me anymore, especially when the ENTIRE christian religion was CREATED and named by pagan leaders.


Whoa. Totally untrue. The Christian movement had been around for a few centuries before those pagan leaders came along. Churches existed, the Biblical texts were in circulation, and we acknowledged Jesus, who truly existed, as being the founder. Just because they made a canon and declared Christianity the empire's religion does not mean they created the entire thing.


As i said in my other response this doesnt mean they made all of the people and the stories...it just means they were packaging it in a cleaner way so people like you and me would understand it and want to subscribe to it without asking questions.


I don't think so and I have explained why several times and have provided links to where the facts may be found. It was not arbitrary. Dogma and rituals, yes. Texts, no. It was a process that demanded intense examination.


1. how do you find an answer to something you are told exists but we cannot see and cannot be like?


How do you know I have not seen it? Not saying I have or have not but how do you know I am going by the Bible alone? I have never claimed such a thing. There are numerous reasons why I believe what I do and the Bible is one part of it and what I believe, yes, but not the entirety of why.


2. Why do you think the divinity of the man Jesus Christ was so hotly debated during the council of NIcea where we see the biblical cannon being solidified into christianity?


You'll have to provide some context, links, or evidence for me to examine.


think about it and start asking yourself why ancient symbols that had attached meanings to them now 10k years later mean something different in a beleif structure that condmens the origins of the very same symbols it now uses. What a huge contradiction.....its laughable sometimes when roman catholics speak of life.


Are you still talking about the cross? And yes, in case you are wondering, I am getting worn out. lol I think my brain finally burnt out on this topic and a fuse blew somewhere.


[edit on 2/12/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 05:18 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 





Yes it does- in other passages and OT books it does. But if you misquote so terribly the passage you offer, how could I expect you to go and read other passages referring to the Amalekites?


I went to www.biblegateway.com... that particular verse didn't contain reference to present day war, only several verses a. do you find a verse that hints at it. I imagine somewhere else there are verses that support the present day war context. That's many many bibles, are you claiming they're wrong and your bible is the right one? What bible do you use?

You also did not address the murder of an innocent jewish baby directly by God, a repugnant and unjust act.


On a separate note:

BTW, what do you believe is solid convincing evidence for any of the miracles stated to have occured, or do you take them just on faith and the written hearsay of ancient primitive men?

Also on that note, do you believe similar miracles still take place? Or have they stopped taking place? If they've stopped, why have they stopped? IF they haven't stopped, with modern technology why isn't there solid irrefutable proof to convince unbelievers that said miracles are real and God from religion 'X' is real?

[edit on 12-2-2008 by Xenogears]



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by Xenogears
I went to www.biblegateway.com... that particular verse didn't contain reference to present day war, only several verses a. do you find a verse that hints at it.


I never claimed it did, Xeno. I showed you the accurate quote of the passage of the pieces you left out and told you the rest is explained in other passages and books.


I imagine somewhere else there are verses that support the present day war context. That's many many bibles, are you claiming they're wrong and your bible is the right one? What bible do you use?


NIV but it doesn't matter because it is mentioned in all of them including the Hebrew Tanakh.


You did not address the murder of an innocent jewish baby directly by God, a repugnant and unjust act.


Because it's just more arguments by outrage. God doesn't exist because some children die after birth? It's sad but it is reality. Let's not worry about them being in Heaven where they will never mourn, feel pain, or suffer in any way again- let's just assume God is evil or doesn't exist because something bad happened. Even David said he was going to morn no longer because even though his son could not return to him, that he would one day be with his son. Death was not the end and even David realized this was a blessing in disguise and was more than it appeared.

And please don't think I'm harping on you- your questions are done with a very pure heart and are questions many have had. But just because it makes us sad does not mean it did not happen or that God was evil. Why didn't God kill David? He wasn't killed for it but he did become cursed for how he set up Uriah. I promise you, all of these questions have answers.


BTW, what do you believe is solid convincing evidence for any of the miracles stated to have occured, or do you take them just on faith and the written hearsay of ancient primitive men?


There have been some pieces of evidence found to confirm some Biblical miracles. Some I find very convincing and some I consider hoaxes. Some are taken on faith and some can be verified. The darkness that occurred during Jesus' crucifixion, for instance, is documented by two pagan historians while something like resurrection of the saints is pretty loose. Then there is the pseudo archaeologist who claimed to have found Jesus' blood and the Egyptian chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea but many, including myself, don't take him seriously. There are probably two dozen or so finds of varying authenticity that is available. But if you're looking to find Jesus' footprints on the Sea of Galilee when He walked on water, good luck.


Also on that note, do you believe similar miracles still take place? Or have they stopped taking place? If they've stopped, why have they stopped? IF they haven't stopped, with modern technology why isn't there solid irrefutable proof to convince unbelievers that said miracles are real and God from religion 'X' is real?


I do believe some similar miracles still occur today. I don't think the Red Sea has been parted any time in recent history but there are some other things that have occurred that cannot be ignored. But... please be careful with such things because sometimes you are still only left with taking someone's word on it and they can be hoaxes. It will be up to you to use discernment. It's not something I can prove or disprove even though I will have my own opinion on such things.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by GUICE2
 


If you look at the zodiac, the closest resemblance you will see is Odin's symbol and the Egyptians had the ankh. All have completely different symbolisms.


Remember the thread about ancient Sumerian supertech?
Remember that one link Essan posted that showed us what the Sumerian symbol for hte sun actually was? Here's a memory refresher:



Seen in the right atmosphere conditions, the sun - indeed, most stars - will create a cruciform of light to our eyes. So in a way, everything in the zodiac can resemble the cross.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 06:47 PM
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I was just looking at some correlations between Christianity and other religions and look what I found....


Isis and Horus - Mary and Jesus







[edit on 12-2-2008 by andre18]



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by andre18
 


It's called derivative artwork. Take into comparison the Disney Film "A Bug's Life" followed swiftly by "Antz" from DreamWorks. Or to use more examples of these two particular groups, "Finding Nemo" followed by "Shark Tale."

These movies are very similar because DreamWorks was cribbing from Disney Pixar, not because htye were drawing from a common source.

For a long time, Egypt was a Christian stronghold, both Gnostic and more orthodox branches. Egyptian art naturally had a strong influence on Christian art for a long time, just as Byzantine iconography heavily influenced the stained glass patterns of Western Europe.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 





I never claimed it did, Xeno. I showed you the accurate quote of the passage of the pieces you left out and told you the rest is explained in other passages and books.


Here's the exchange:


It doesn't specifically say they were under constant war with them, it just says they were attacked when leaving Egypt( 400 years prior, according to brick, iirc). That may've been the historical context but it doesn't appear to be in that particular verse, other verses are required to give it such context.-xeno




Yes it does- in other passages and OT books it does. But if you misquote so terribly the passage you offer, how could I expect you to go and read other passages referring to the Amalekites?


Though reading your reply again, it appears to be a restatement of what I said. Which I didn't notice at first.

As for the modern miracles, the main question is if they are happening why hasn't there been a single convincing one backed up by vast irrefutable modern day evidence? Unlike in ancient times we have modern day equipment and technology, almost everyone carries a camera in their cellphone for example. We don't have to rely on word of mouth anymore.

Something like an amputee with a long medical history and evidence showing he was amputated regenerating on live television in front of millions of people both through tv and right there... Would probably shake most unbelievers.




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