Do people who aren’t Christian deserve be tortured in hell?

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posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 03:59 AM
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It is impressive that you have it all figured out at the ripe old age of 18. It is really a shame that you are going to be burdened with telling the rest of the world how stupid they are for the rest of your life.

I am not really a religious person, but I do at least give some sort of curiosity to the fact that billions of people have believed in this religion over the last 2000 years. It definitely makes me wonder "what if it is true?"

I certainly see holes in the religion. I can see how it has been abused and manipulated to empower certain people over the masses. However, I still can't dismiss it outright. Since I don't read Latin or Hebrew, I will always be forced to listen to someone elses translation. That always leaves room for doubt.

My question is, if you are so certain that you won't be damned to an eternity in hell since you don't believe in religion, then what are you living for? You should be living in the moment and taking everything in since this is ALL THERE IS. Why waste your time posting on a message board when it could all be over tomorrow? Nothing but the law should stop you from trying everything you ever wanted. At least religious people have the hope of an afterlife to keep them going.

It sure seems like this whole human consciousness thing is a waste if this is all that there is.




posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 04:22 AM
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Originally posted by Karlhungis
...then what are you living for? You should be living in the moment and taking everything in since this is ALL THERE IS. Why waste your time posting on a message board when it could all be over tomorrow? Nothing but the law should stop you from trying everything you ever wanted. At least religious people have the hope of an afterlife to keep them going.


I gave you a star because I have often thought the same thing. I've only been here a little over a month but have seen many members of various faiths be told to leave ATS and go to church instead where they would "fit in" better. As ignorant as such a statement is, it made me wonder about what you said above.

If this is all there is to life, the last place you would think someone would want to be is sitting inside on the internet, asking the same question repeatedly, to a question that has been answered repeatedly in his other threads, regarding a religion that was already declared to be nonsense in his other threads.

If one is really trying to search for answers then that is one thing. But to spend so much time criticizing what one already thinks to be completely false sounds strange. It would seem, like you said, that we'd be wanting to run around and soak it all in while we still could.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 04:34 AM
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And just to enlighten everyone on this thread who seems to think for some reason that the Christians living on the earth today invented the concept of Hell:

1). We did not invent the concept of Hell.
2). Hell has been taught for thousands of years.
3). We take no joy in anyone going to Hell.
4). We are not the only or the first religion to teach the concept of Hell.
5). Some other Hells are believed to be even worse than the Christian Hell. Yes, actually worse as described by the other respective religions.
6). Out of the religions that believe in Hell, Christianity teaches the easiest way to avoid going to Hell.

Do some research. You might learn some interesting things.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 04:57 AM
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I do at least give some sort of curiosity to the fact that billions of people have believed in this religion over the last 2000 years. It definitely makes me wonder "what if it is true?"



All that is, is 2000 years of ignorance…….we couldn’t test the bible for proof because we didn’t have the knowledge, we didn’t have the tools to work it out…it’s only been in the last 50 years that we could figure out how the planets work, that the world isn’t flat….that there isn’t a man living in the clouds that watches everything we do….etc……now we have the method to test the validity of the bible, we can then logically prove that it’s completely and utterly wrong…..


then what are you living for?


Nice question……basically….the way I see it……you only live one, just like the plants and all the other creatures on the planet, religion is a way to make people believe in the assumption that we can be immortal….that we can exist for ever…..when we die, we go to heaven….the same goes for reincarnation…when we die we go into another body etc….all this is designed to give people the hope that there is something else besides this crummy life we live…..that there’s got to be a better then this……the truth is…..this is all there is….you only live once……so in my opinion….you or I should make the most of the life we have…..


I always see other atheists doing drugs or what ever because they know as I do that you only live once, so why not have as much out of that life as you can…..I’m going to die anyway…..They way I see it…..the fact that you only live once means to me that I must live as long as possible, I don’t wont to die…..if I could live forever I would……and in which case….I try to eat healthy foods…I drink very rarely, I disappoint my mates because I don’t drink like they do….I’ve never taken drugs….and never will….including cigarettes…… and so…..that’s my point in life…..to live as long as I can….and enjoy it for as long as I can…..



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by Karlhungis
My question is, if you are so certain that you won't be damned to an eternity in hell since you don't believe in religion, then what are you living for? You should be living in the moment and taking everything in since this is ALL THERE IS. Why waste your time posting on a message board when it could all be over tomorrow? Nothing but the law should stop you from trying everything you ever wanted. At least religious people have the hope of an afterlife to keep them going.

It sure seems like this whole human consciousness thing is a waste if this is all that there is.


To try and make the world a better place to live in for ourselves and others, not for any reward in any afterlife or deity.

Even should this reality be nothing but an illusion, I think it builds character and selflessness to always want to help and improve ourselves and others without hoping for a reward from anyone or anything to do so.

If a deity does not recognize a decent and moral person who does not and/or has not worshipped that deity or any other, then that particular deity, in my opinion, is not worth any of my attention.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by ixiy]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 06:03 AM
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andre18.... on your post about there having to be more then one god etc. Even the bible states that there are many gods, the christian one is just supposedly the most powerful and most angry and jealous.
As for me, well I consider myself Pagan, although, in the long run I truly believe that no one, no matter what kind of feelings or faith they have, can ever know until the day they die what is out there afterwards.
Also, I believe that a so called loving father would not persecute someone for not believing in something because there was not enough evidence to do so. I mean there are hundreds of religions and faiths out there, all of them having plenty of reason to as why they are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't personally believe it but if there WERE a christian god then I believe that we would all be judged on what we did in life, not how many days we went to church and prayed for salvation. I also find it really hard to believe that a loving father would send a child to hell for not believing in him and then take in a murderer or rapist because the repented, truly meant it and changed their ways.
I think that the christian fear tactics are no way to try and convert people, either is trying to annoy people into believing, I have been preached to so many times over the years, it just baffles me to as why these people feel the need to do this. I, like I said, consider myself to be pagan. I have never once preached to anyone, I do however give info if, and only if it is requested from me. Though seeing as I do not flaunt my faith to everyone and I just live it, not many people ask me about it.
The most peaceful religions, that I have seen from meeting people, are paganism, budhism, and the muslim faith (imagine that now lol) Every christian I have ever met has been half crazy, preaching that I am going to hell and sending my child there as well and so on. And while I am well aware there are extremists in EVERY faith, I have stumbled across more christian ones then any other.
I guess, for now, that's all I have to say about all of that lol



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 06:20 AM
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I believe in a creator what that creator is I don't know, however I also believe religion is BS,

George Carlin said it best...




Religious folks are some of the most judgmental, hypocritical and bloodthirsty people I've ever come across...

They are the first to cast judgement on people and turn there backs on them..

They love to force there BS on you, even though 6 days out of the week they gossip, lie, cheat , steal, and judge others...

not only that, these "peaceful" followers seem to always be the ones banging the drums of war....

supporting the war mongers, and forcing there BS on others through violence...



I'm sorry call me crazy but I'm not going to put "faith" in a book written thousands of years ago by MAN, found by MAN, translated by MAN, printed by MAN, and profited off of by MAN...

[edit on 21-1-2008 by C0le]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 06:28 AM
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Other thoughts on this subject... if a drowning man is thrown a life preserver(as humanity was with gift of Christ) but chooses not to take hold and drown..how is the thrower(God) of the life preserver at fault?

Also keep in mind that hell is simply eternal separation from God. As bad as things are on earth now it will get worse when the Holy Spirit is removed(saints ) at time of the rapture. Real lawlessness here will abound. Maybe that will be something of how hell will be.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 06:31 AM
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Damn….I love that video…I saw it ages ago…..……..George Carlin is such a pro……he says it so logically…..

“Even the bible states that there are many gods,”….according to the Christian bible....there is but one god….but is of the holy trinity or something like that…..the holy spirit….Jesus, and god…… so when Jesus sacrificed himself to god for all of man kinds sins….it was sacrificing itself…to itself…?

You see…it’s some dodgy paradox that makes no bloody sense….


[edit on 21-1-2008 by andre18]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 06:48 AM
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Originally posted by BlackProjects
Other thoughts on this subject... if a drowning man is thrown a life preserver(as humanity was with gift of Christ) but chooses not to take hold and drown..how is the thrower(God) of the life preserver at fault?


Okay, now using your same analogy... What if you are in a sea full of drowning men. Now there isn't one guy throwing out life preservers, but there are a hundred. Every one of them claims that only their life preserver will actually save you from drowning. Each one is very adamant that theirs is right and that if you even think about using someone elses, you will not be allowed on board and will therefore drown.

How is the drowning man supposed to know which preserver to choose? They can't all be correct. The man obviously has to have some doubt. So it makes sense to me that a lot of people would just continue to tread water and hope that the real saviour would make himself known in no uncertain terms.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 07:04 AM
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reply to post by C0le
 


It's strange, but as I read your post, the following scriptures came to mind. These scriptures are written regarding Christians in the last days who profess one thing and do another:
II Timothy 3:1-9
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

What you describe in your post are these Christians which do not make up the majority. Nonetheless, because of these Christians, all others are judged alike. Which you have clearly shown by your post of lumping them altogether.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 07:15 AM
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reply to post by jdposey
 


I read your post and can't help but think that society has turned to this. My only solace is that it seems like every generation feels this way about the youth. It seems that every generation feels that society is in decline and thus long for yesterday.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 07:27 AM
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reply to post by Karlhungis
 


Yes, if Time Travel were possible for everyone, I think the greatest percentage of todays' population would have gone back to another time that they perceived as pleasant and non-threatening. Exactly when that time would be, I don't know? I am sure for anyone who has been dead 100 years, to awaken to today's world would probably be in utter shock and trying their best to get back to the grave!

Sorry I got off track....this has nothing to do with going to hell!



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 08:07 AM
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Your not taking into account the time, in which the bible was written. This goes back to whether or not the bible should be taken literally.

They bible also says that only 144,000 will be rulers in heaven. It goes on to mention the other sheep, that though there not rulers are still going to heaven.

Hell is reserved for those that are evil, and have wrought destruction on man. This being said very few humans have earned this right. On the other side of it, satan and his angels have.

Furthermore, While hell is a place of eternal fire, imo it isn't a place where you suffer forever and ever.

Think of it this way, you are God, you just defeated satan, are you going to keep him around forever and ever, looking for a way to escape, and start all over again? Or our you going to destroy him, and his followers, and call it a day.

God is a just God, always keep this in mind, he will not throw a child into hell, nor will he through those tormented in the mind. He judges our hearts, and our souls, not our minds.

This being said, if God was really so horrible as to throw someone in eternal torment, would you really want him to be God? I for one would have to see the books on this, and I for one wouldn't agree with the desicion.

This being said, if I don't agree, then I'm going against the will of God, and thus, because of my pity for sinners, have thus sinned. Do I then deserve hell? If that was my only sin? If you say yes, your remorseless, and if you say no, you just earned hell. See the pattern?

Our God is just, and thus wouldn't create a place like that for the majority of humans to live in for all eternity. It just doesn't make sense.

On a side note, what is God? How do you describe it? Can you touch, feel, or taste it? Think about your answers.

Cheers,

Camain



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 08:15 AM
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reply to post by Karlhungis
 


I would look for one that holds out a life preserver & says nothing. This would be free choice without condition. It would parallel the love that parents hold for their children. . . This would be true salvation.

To force a drowning man into a decision through fear, guilt, and claim to their soul is diress. . . This is false salvation.

True salvation is not a barganing chip, and anyone who offers it wanting something in return is not out to help you as much as they are out to help themselves. . . They wish you to enter into a contract, to which you will be giving up your soul.

Think about it for a moment-

Doesn't the devil offer the same?

2PacSade-



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 08:18 AM
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The modern world is lost in rituals. "Look he did not say he is a Christian, he was Hindu, he did not do that and, so he will burn in hell, but in general he was a good man". The rituals do not make a person "Christian", or "good".



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 

For sure it is correct that Christianity did not invent Hell. In my limited knowledge credit goes to Zoroaster/Zarathustra for inventing the end of time, the final judgment, and hell. And I wonder if anyone can think of earlier citations of these ( no doubt back then trippy strange exciting revolutionary ) concepts. Not to lead off topic, but...



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by andre18
 


You're a moron.

In other words you're an unbeliever (moron) yet you bother yourself so much with Christian doctrine, the Bible, Jesus and God, why is that?

I can't stand flies so do I go around rubbing myself in crap and sit out hoping to attract flies?

Your ignorance towards all things Scriptural leads you into looking like a fool when you try and tell Christians what their beliefs do and don't say while never having study any of it.

First, Believers do not WISH anyone to be separated from God and to think this is the case is to be totally blind to the fact that most of the worlds relief in terms of food, clothing, disaster and charity work comes from Christian organizations.

It's Christians that go to remote parts of third world countries and hope to bring aid. Have a lot of so called christians brought with them pain and suffering in the form of forcing their beliefs on others? You bet, ever heard of the "inquisition"?

For those that imply hell is a place of "torture" (how this relates to a Hollywood movie I have no idea?) where limbs are being sawed off or where people are enslaved by Satan as he whips them to do his work have no clue as to what Scripture says on the topic and have instead sought to parrot junk they hear from others.

Jesus said that hell will be a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth". This does not refer or imply "torture" in the sense of physical torture like in the movie "Hostel" but rather it implies guilt and sorrow. It's like knowing you screwed up and made a horrible mistake (compounded by a million or so) and now there's nothing you can do about it.

Hell is neither dark nor a place of "flames" in the physical sense. How can hell be dark when Jesus implies there are flames there? How can hell be a place of flames, which give light, when Jesus also says that they will be cast into the outer darkness? So obviously these are descriptive physical terms or phrases to describe a spiritual place.

Satan is NOT the ruler of hell for he shall be cast into it as well as others and imprisoned there also. Satan has no physical body hence there can be no physical "torture" applied to him. Some theologians argue that "people" who are not of the "sheep" shall be resurrected with physical bodies so their punishment is both physical and spiritual. This though is an in house debate and holds no real value as they all agree that some form of punishment is being spoken of, whether physical, spiritual or both.

What is gathered from Scripture is that those who are not Gods shall be punished in terms of being "separated" from God and His Grace and Glory. At Judgment they shall witness His Glory and knowing they cannot be with Him, their Creator, will cause them great sorrow and they shall "weep and gnash" their teeth in grief. To use an illustration, and a poor one at that, let's use a game show where you have 2 items covered by large sheets and they take on the shape of what they hide. One is shaped like a car while the other covers a small box. You pick the car shape only to find out it's a bunch of boxes made out to the shape of a car containing fruit cake. The other sheet covered a box containing a Rolex watch. For days after you'll most likely beat yourself up over choosing the wrong prize and wish you could go back and do it again knowing what you now know.

To the Believer God is their Savior yet to the non-believer God is their Judge. Believers bow their knee to God NOW while non-believers will bow their knee at Judgment but it's also too late.

We have no record of this separation from God having a time limit but rather it speaks of an eternity being separated from God and His Glory


[edit on 21-1-2008 by SilverSmith]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 10:31 AM
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Originally posted by andre18

"Your eternal existence" WTF.......if you're going to say something, make sure it makes some bloody sense.....


Look at your question genius! You asked it.


I’m going to hell where I’ll be tortured and suffer for ever and ever….etc……And you’re the one who’s supposed to have morality…


Quote me where I said, I wanted you to go there!


Can anyone make sense out of this.....I’m struggling.....I mean...I’m really struggling.....Please people, try to make sense when you reply.....thanks.....


You being an athiest also belong to religous faith, you choose believe in nothing. You may say NO, it is science, or whatever, still, that is your faith!


I would simply challenge you to ask Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, Horus, Hercules, and the tooth fairy.....that same question back at you from the depths of your mind


Last, for you to judge me, which you are a young guy and I can understand your inexperience, to say I need to look elsewhere, is purly your assumption/speculation as you know nothing about my life. Talk about struggling


You quick to criticize, and swift to twist statements.

Here is an analogy for you my friend. Let's say you never experienced hang gliding (maybe you have, just try to follow the analogy) and you spend all this time in scientific research on how the dynamics of it works, study all the physics of what keeps that hanglider up in the sky, even had people tell you in great detail of how awesome it is and what the experience is like! You can say it sucks, it's stupid, etc...until you actually commit to the experience, there is no way going to know until you do it!

Once again, all the best!!!

[edit on 21-1-2008 by defcon365]



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by camain

They bible also says that only 144,000 will be rulers in heaven. It goes on to mention the other sheep, that though there not rulers are still going to heaven.

Hell is reserved for those that are evil, and have wrought destruction on man. This being said very few humans have earned this right. On the other side of it, satan and his angels have.

God is a just God, always keep this in mind, he will not throw a child into hell, nor will he through those tormented in the mind. He judges our hearts, and our souls, not our minds.

Cheers,

Camain


Where does it say only "144,000" shall be in heaven?

You have misread and misquoted Scripture. It states that God has set aside "144,000" for a special reason. It never says that they alone shall be in heaven. Jehovah Witness's teach that as part of their false doctrine.

Hell is also NOT reserved for those who are evil and do wrong against man only but rather hell is for those who are unbelievers. God has also predestined some to be vessels of His wrath.

I also suggest you see what God says about man and his "heart". Is it not "exceedingly wicked"?



Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen. 6:5



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