What In The World Most Deadly And Efficient Assault Rifle

Sorry if my first post makes me seem like an asshole, but a lot of people seem to be basing their judgments off of videogames, conjecture, or bad history/discovery channel specials.

The most deadly/efficient rifle in the world today is indisputably the M16A2-A4 series and its cousin, the M4. It's ergonomic, very accurate, light, accepts a wide range of optics and other "tacticool" gear, has a wide range of possible receivers (6.5mm Grendel, ), and is the weapon of choice for Navy SEALs, Marine Force Recon, Delta, the SAS (yes the use M4s, not C7 Diemacos), and countless other organization with whom danger is their business. Yes, the early AR series had its faults, do to misconceptions and DoD failures, but they've been addressed. The direct gas impingement system, while dirty, saves space, weight, and lowers recoil, and hey, the AR family has gas piston receivers if you don't want to worry about that. Just clean your rifle, like any decent rifleman ought to be doing, and the M16/M4 family will pay off.

This isn't to undercut the AK, yes its very reliable, but it isn't very accurate, ergonomic, efficient (bullets used for targets hit) or modifiable.

reply to post by OutlawStar289


It's funny because I hear a lot of bad things from the people who use the very rifle you describe as being indisputably the best.

This is really an opinion thread and I don't think there is any one right answer. I guess it comes down to personal preference, I was always a fan of the HK series of weapons.

Shattered OUT...

I am rather fond of the AA12. Its a fully automatic shotgun that can kick some major a$$ in colose quarters combat. Check it out www.youtube.com...

Bad Mo Fo

the deadliest . is the one fired by best marksman

the most efficient is the one that is kept clean and fired by an infantryman who understands fire discipline

reply to post by ignorant_ape


I think we're looking for the hardware element and people's opinions on them.

Shattered OUT...

reply to post by ShatteredSkies


at the risk of re-itterating a very old maxim :

its not what you have got , but what you do with it that counts

reply to post by ignorant_ape


That's the easy way out my friend, saying "it's not the tool, but the user". I mean, why would you want to end a discussion based on hardware on something like that?

The OP obviously made the question geared towards the hardware aspect of infantry fighting, not the actual infantry man. I mean I think ALL of us agree that it is in fact the person holding the gun that makes the difference, not the gun, guns don't kill people, people kill people, but sayings that just puts an end to the discussion...

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by OutlawStar289
Sorry if my first post makes me seem like an asshole, but a lot of people seem to be basing their judgments off of videogames, conjecture, or bad history/discovery channel specials.

The most deadly/efficient rifle in the world today is indisputably the M16A2-A4 series and its cousin, the M4. It's ergonomic, very accurate, light, accepts a wide range of optics and other "tacticool" gear, has a wide range of possible receivers (6.5mm Grendel,

), and is the weapon of choice for Navy SEALs, Marine Force Recon, Delta, the SAS (yes the use M4s, not C7 Diemacos), and countless other organization with whom danger is their business. Yes, the early AR series had its faults, do to misconceptions and DoD failures, but they've been addressed. The direct gas impingement system, while dirty, saves space, weight, and lowers recoil, and hey, the AR family has gas piston receivers if you don't want to worry about that. Just clean your rifle, like any decent rifleman ought to be doing, and the M16/M4 family will pay off.

This isn't to undercut the AK, yes its very reliable, but it isn't very accurate, ergonomic, efficient (bullets used for targets hit) or modifiable.

Are you for real?
I have probs with that pice of junk at the range ... not even talking about the sandbox.
Sure all those flashy ACOGs, CCOs are nice and all, but when you start getting 6 jams + a mag, you gonna end up in a dog darn box.
Why worry about range+accuracy when you end up putting 2-5 rounds center mass to put him down at that range? I just hope the next weapon we get in the future is gonna be an improvment.

Best regards.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by kaskad]

I think the origional question needs to be taken into account here.

What is the most deadly and efficient assault rifle in the world?

How do you measuere deadly? Is it the effectiveness of the weapon to kill quickly? Is it it's ability to kill with a single shot?Is it it's ability to kill at long range? Is it its' ability to kill multiple targets? Is it it's ability to penetrate armour?

If so then surely it is a matter of calibre/bullet type.

How do you measure efficiency? Is it mean number of rounds between failures? In what environment? Used by who - trained soldiers or geurilla fighters? In what type of environment - close range/jungle/desert/temperate/woodland etc? Is it accuracy - close range/long range? The list is endless.

As you can see the variables are too wide to choose a single weapon system. However the assault rifle should be an all-rounder, capable of providing a useable capability in as many situations as possible. Therefore unfortunately in order to meet one criteria you generally neglect another to an extent. This becomes apparent when we look at the weapons in use by various forces in conjunction with their warfare doctorine.

The British army were getting ready to fight the Ruskies in Germany when the wanted an assault rifle, so we chose a weapon that was geared towards fighting from vehicles (small weapon) but that provided a degree of accuracy (long barrel). The weapon should also be able to produce close range accuracy (short overall length) and be capable of automatic fire (controlable). Overall weight wasn't an issue as we would be fighting from the back of APCs, not tabbing half way aroung the world to fight. The result was the SA80. Unfortunately the fact that the weapon was being designed for a European environment meant that extreme condition environmental reliability were neglected, Hence £92m of development to make the weapon useable

The US Army were in Vietnam when the M16 was developed, so they wanted a weapon that was easy to carry (light weight), accurate (long barrel) and would be carried primarily in open terrain (overall length unimportant). Ammo load needed to be high, so ammo weight was to be minimalised (intermediate cartridge). Unfortunately the weapon was designed with trained soldiers in mind and not conscripted troops, so it relied on regular maintenance. The fact that it was then issued to draftees combined with a new propellant meant that it gained a reputation for unreliability. Later when the US forces became involved in more mechanised environments, a shorter weapon was needed. As the M16 was already in use, the M4 was the obvious choice. This traded long range effectiveness for overall length, meaning the weapon (and round) gained a reputation for poor performance.

Eastern Block armies wanted a weapon that was easy to train conscripte troops in with minimum maintenance (reliable). Their doctorine relied on large amounts of fire to overwhelm the enemy (automatic). Long range accuracy was not an important issue. Mass production was a priority, so costs needed to be kept to a minimum (cheap). Hence the AK47.

This type of evaluation needs to be performed for each situation before a choice can be made. In the end there is not a huge amount of difference from one weapon to another these days. Everyone will make their own choices in accordance with their needs and experiences, be they real life or media based.

reply to post by OutlawStar289


Never used the M4 but have used the M16, A1, A2 and CAR-15. Good idea, but all junk in the field. Too many small pieces to field strip in bad weather. Gas system not very good in fine dust/sand. .223 round kind of a so-so round. Also the constrution is not great, too much plastic.

I will say that the SS109 is better then the old stuff. Also the M4 does take care of some of the "plastic" issue by going to the folding stock.

If you stay with the .223 round, I would say the Styr Aug is on top.
If I had to pick a new round it would be the 5.7 and the P90.
.308 still the best for range and hitting power, but too heavy for general use.

My dream weapon is the G11 built by HK. Never got out of test phase. 4.7 caseless rounds. Looked great, handled great. The issue was the caseless round.

Most deadly and efficient assault rifle ever built????

You can't beat us Aussies.

Take the AusStyyr. You have a weapon, in bulldog configuration, which is small (yet has a longer barrel than the M-16 and the Ak-47), light, accurate, has an inbuilt scope for further accuracy, and has the rate of fire similar to the M-16. The standard Auto fire kill range is 300 metres. The standard single shot kill range is 500 metres. SAS members have recorded kills at 900 metres and more.

The most interesting feature however is the use by date. An M-16 for example needs a barrel replacement after approximately 18-24 months depending on the rate of usage. You may as well throw it in the bin. Almost the same cost as a new one. The Styyr however has a standard barrel life of 10-15 years (at the same rate of usage).

But its made of plastic I hear you say. Well. Lets put it to the test then shall we? Take a Styyr and place it in the hands of the strongest man you know. Tell him to take it buy the barrel and smash it into a nearby tree. Over and over and over. The barrel will bend in his hands well before he does any damage to the plastic stock.

But its really an Austrian weapon you say. Yeah, and the Australians improved it 10 fold with the AusStyyr.

To back up my Aussies rock and you cant touch us theory please look up the Metal Storm. Discussion over. Small, compact, 20,000 rounds per minute. It's the best if you absolutely, positively have to kill every single MFker in the room.

Then take the new Metal Storm Barrel mounted weapon and attach to AusStyyr. Aussies win.

Yay.

reply to post by Dr Death


The Aug is not plastic, its fiber carbon. I’ve seen a 21/2 ton truck drive over one with no issues.

As for the barrel, I’m not sure about that life span, but it can be changed with a push of a button and a twist.

if the question is kept to "which is the most deadly and effecient...", then the answer must be the AK series of rifles. They have killed more people than any other weapons platform. How do you qualify efficient? Maybe be relating kills vs. breakdowns? If that is the case, then same answer. The AK simply wont stop running. The lower receiver (the part that strips a round from the magazine and moves it into postion to be chambered) is stamped as opposed to forged (or cast). That means that the tolerances are much looser than an M-16 (or its variants). This allows all kinds of crud to be present in the bolt area as well as shoddy mainenance without malfunction. Additionally, the gas piston system that cycles the rounds is much cleaner (in terms of carbon build up) than the M-16 (or its variants). The net result is a rifle that is cheaper to produce than any of its contemporaries and "acceptably accurate" within typical CQB ranges (100-200 yds). Are there others that perform better? You bet! All kinds of sexy wildcat (.243, 6.8spc. etc) rounds exist that provide a flatter trajectory and improved terminal ballistics. But since the original post was so generalized, the answers/opinions should (in my opinion) be reserved for mil-spec rifles and calibers.

Now, if the post was "which do you prefer?", then my little M4 takes top spot.

“What In The World Most Deadly And Efficient Assault RifleWhat In The World Most Deadly And Efficient Assault Rifle”?

That’s simple, the one that’s easy and cheap to mass produce, one that’s easy to maintain in the filed and one that’s reliably cycles a cartridge that makes the best compromise between all of the variables involved.


That was actually achieved back in 1911 with the world’s first true assault rifle, Fedorov Avtomat.

Short recoil operated, 600 rounds per minute, firing a 6.5mm Fedorov intermediate cartridge from a 25 round mag. The cartridge held an 8.5 gram projectile which was propelled at 860 meters per second and generated 3140 Joules of muzzle energy, which is actually the sweet spot for automatic fire. Low impulse, low recoil, high velocity round with good energy, flat trajectory and great penetration.

world.guns.ru...

Currently the deadliest AR is the AEK-971.

It is the world best handling AR in full auto fire, which is the primary job of the AR.

Key feature of the AEK971 is gas driven, balanced action with rotating bolt barrel locking. Balancing mean that AEK971 gas drive has two gas chambers and two gas pistons. First gas piston is linked wia gas rod to the bolt carrier an moves as usual. Second gas piston is linked to the balancing msteel weight and moves in opposite (to main gas piston) direction. This design is implemented to eliminate 3 of 4 total impulces of the movement that affect rifle during the full-auto fire. 1st impulse rifle received when bullet moves along the barrel - this is recoil itself. Second impulse rifle received when heavy bolt carrier/bolt group moves along the receiver back and forth. Third impulse is received when bolt carrier/bolt group stops in the rear position and fourth - when this group stops in forward position after new cartridge is chambered. Synchronous and opposite movement of the balancing weight eliminates all except the recoil impulse, so rifle becomes far more stable during full-auto fire.

world.guns.ru...


M-16A2 is NOT an AR, simply because it’s not capable of full auto, and is limited to 3 round bursts.

M4 is by far NOT an AR, same 3-round burst and because its barrel is too short to generate the muzzle energy required by true ARs.

From the very beginning M16 family was created as an automatic RIFLE, which is clearly apparent to anybody who actually fired it.

Its selector switch is on the left side. 1st position is SAFE, 2nd semi-auto, and 3rd full auto or 3-round burst.

True assault rifles switch from SAFE immediately to FULL auto, and then to semi-auto.

For example, the very first AK had its selector switch on the RIGHT side, 1st position was SAFE, while at the same time the selector acted as a dust cover thus protecting the weapon from contamination, 2nd position was FULL auto, 3rd semi-auto.

M16 did not have a dust cover, which resulted in chamber contamination and imminent stoppages, mainly from the bolt not fully closing.

M16A1 was modified with a spring loaded dust cover and a forward assist which allowed a shooter to forcibly close the bolt by pounding on the forward assist with the palm of his hand.

Still full auto resulted in stoppages do to inherently weak gas system which is to this day unable to handle rapid firing and overheats, so starting with A2 model full auto was replaced by a 3-round burst trigger group.

Best Western ARs are HK G36, SIG SG-550 family, FN FNC and FN SCAR.

Steyr Stg.77 AUG is a great bullpup, but bullpups are not for everybody.

Originally posted by iskander

M4 is by far NOT an AR, same 3-round burst and because its barrel is too short to generate the muzzle energy required by true ARs.

And exactly what muzzle energy IS required to "qualify" as an assault rifle? I see where you're coming from though - I would agree with you that the M4 would be better described as an assault carbine.

Its selector switch is on the left side. 1st position is SAFE, 2nd semi-auto, and 3rd full auto or 3-round burst.

True assault rifles switch from SAFE immediately to FULL auto, and then to semi-auto.

According to who? That discounts virtually all weapons not based on russian doctorine, i.e. AK. The G36, SIG, FNC, AUG etc all have semi automatic set as the first option on their selector levers (well the AUG doesn't have a lever as such, but you get the point), not automatic. Does this mean that they're not assault rifles?

Best Western ARs are HK G36, SIG SG-550 family, FN FNC and FN SCAR.

Steyr Stg.77 AUG is a great bullpup, but bullpups are not for everybody.

Originally posted by iskander

Currently the deadliest AR is the AEK-971.

It is the world best handling AR in full auto fire, which is the primary job of the AR.

Key feature of the AEK971 is gas driven, balanced action with rotating bolt barrel locking. Balancing mean that AEK971 gas drive has two gas chambers and two gas pistons. First gas piston is linked wia gas rod to the bolt carrier an moves as usual. Second gas piston is linked to the balancing msteel weight and moves in opposite (to main gas piston) direction. This design is implemented to eliminate 3 of 4 total impulces of the movement that affect rifle during the full-auto fire. 1st impulse rifle received when bullet moves along the barrel - this is recoil itself. Second impulse rifle received when heavy bolt carrier/bolt group moves along the receiver back and forth. Third impulse is received when bolt carrier/bolt group stops in the rear position and fourth - when this group stops in forward position after new cartridge is chambered. Synchronous and opposite movement of the balancing weight eliminates all except the recoil impulse, so rifle becomes far more stable during full-auto fire.

And that dual gas cylinder system works smoothly until the gun gets dirty (after about 3-mags), then the cylinders loose syncronisation and the gun becomes next to impossible to control in full auto, burst or even in rapid semiautomatic shooting. This is due to the gas pistons reaching battery at different times twisting the gun off axis.


And the AK-Selector is the worst part in its design, it's akward to use and unconfortable compared to the western thumb selectors. The main reason Full auto is first is that it's easier to get to semi (firing mode mostly used) by simply ramming the selector down as far as it goes. Getting it to stay on FA is more tricky and requires finer touches.

reply to post by PaddyInf

And exactly what muzzle energy IS required to "qualify" as an assault rifle? I see where you're coming from though - I would agree with you that the M4 would be better described as an assault carbine.

That depends entirely on the round fired, and its resulting terminal ballistics.

As we all know M4 barrel is to short for the 5.56 round, thus it's fragmentation range becomes less then 100 meters.

According to who? That discounts virtually all weapons not based on russian doctorine, i.e. AK. The G36, SIG, FNC, AUG etc all have semi automatic set as the first option on their selector levers (well the AUG doesn't have a lever as such, but you get the point), not automatic. Does this mean that they're not assault rifles?

According to the very description of the weapon. The primary function of the assult rifle is to fire intermidiate cartridge in full automatic mode, thus providing incresed range and power of submashineguns.

While both MP-44 and AK used intermediate cartridges, early Western ARs were chambered in 7.62X51, thus placing them in the automatic rifle category.

The were simply an evolution of automatic rifles.

Russians pioneered the field of military mass produced gas operated automatic rifles by fielding Simonov AVS-36 in 1936, and followed with Tokarev SVT-38/SVT-40 and 1938/40.

Germans followed with FG-42.

While Brownings excellent BAR came into its own back in the days of WWI, it was not a true military automatic rifle do to its massive weight/size, and immense cost of manufacture.

As to Assault Rifles, on the MP-44 the fire selector and safety are separate, while on the AK-47 they are on the same leaver.

Similarly, the very first assault rifle, the Fedorov Avtomat had a separate manual safety and fire selector levers installed within the trigger guard.

reply to post by northwolf


Come on northwolf, out of all people you should now why it's on the right side.

Ergonomics aside, such solution simplifies the entire design, eliminates a huge number of parts and manufacturing steps.

Full auto is first because AK is designed for FULL auto first, and semi-auto second. Overwhelming amount of automatic AR fire supported by medium rof GPMGs, that's the point.

We're talking about the very basic Soviet/Russian military doctrine here.

Getting it to stay on FA is more tricky and requires finer touches.

That's news to me, I NEVER had such problems.

Every AK I ever fired had the same old CLACK when switching, and once you put it there it stays there until you switch.

Last one was 107 by the way.

www.youtube.com...
here is a good one the IAR

reply to post by pinpoint sniper(1)


In my opinion, anything built by Arctic Warfare or McMillan.

Arctic Warfare

The Arctic Warfare guns, built by Accuracy International of Portsmuth, England; this line of rifles is among the best in the World of sniper rifles today. This rifle can shot less than 2" (51mm) groups at the distances of 600 yards (550m), using boat-tail match ammunition. Arctic Warfare is a line of 5 rifles. Original Arctc Warfare was designed for the British military. It gained its designation by special anti-icing features, allowing sniping operations to be carried out under Arctic conditions as low as -40C (-104F)! Other models are Police (AWP), Suppressed (AWS), Folding (AWF) and Super Magnum (AW SM). Three first rifles designed for 7.62mm NATO ammunition, while Super Magnum can be chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum, .300 Winchester Magnum and 7mm Remington Magnum.



AWP



McMillan TAC-50 Sniper Rifle

TAC-50 sniper rifle is produced in USA by McMillan Bros. Rifles Co. This long range anti-materiel / anti-personnel weapon is based on previous designs from the same company, which first appeared during late 1980s. McMillan Co makes several versions of .50 caliber rifles, based on same proprietary action, for military, law enforcement and civilian use. TAC-50 is a military / LE weapon, which is standard Long Range Sniper rifle of Canadian Armed Forces since 2000. Rifles of TAC-50 family is capable of outstanding accuracy and guaranteed to provide 0.5 MOA groups with match grade ammunition.

TAC-50 rifle is also credited with longest range documented kill on enemy soldier: in 2003, a Canadian sniper shot and killed an Afghani taliban insurgent from the range of 2430 meters (nearly one and a half mile).

McMillan TAC-50 is manually operated, rotary bolt rifle. Huge, full-size bolt has dual front locking lugs, and its body has spiral flutes to reduce weight. Heavy match-grade barrel is also fluted, and fitted with effective muzzle brake. Rifle is fed from detachable box magazines, holding 5 rounds each. Stock is made from fiberglass by McMillan Stocks, and is designed to be used from bipod only. Buttstock is adjustable for length of pull with rubber spacers, and can be folded to the side or removed for compact storage. Rifle has no open sights and can be used with a variety of telescopic or night sights; in Canadian service, standard sight is 16X telescope.




TAC-50