Wiccan Yule Wreath Vandalized

Originally posted by marg6043
I will love to follow up this one, this is bound to become a big issue rightfully so.

I agree! It needs to go ALL the way up the Federal Court of Appeals. We are in need of DRASTIC reform in this country and a return and also re-education regarding the principles upon which the Unites States was founded.

Most people don't even realize that the US is a REPUBLIC not a 'democracy.' Democracy is the method, not the design.

quote by forestlady/
What does everyone think?
How do you think this should be resolved?
How do you feel about the Pentacle being put next to the Nativity scene?
Should there even be public religious displays on government property?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

In my opinion, I don't think that the Pentacle should have been placed next to the Nativity scene.
Why?
For the simple fact that it is a Christmas nativity Display, portraying Christ's Birth and not a get together of different faiths.
I'm sure there is a time and place for all that, at some other time in appropriate circumstances.
Christmas is the remembrance and a celebration of Christs birth.
In my opinion,having a pentacle next to the Nativity scene is actually disrespectful.
What would happen if Christians came to a Wiccan' festival and decided to place Crosses and Icons of religious matter around there?

The wreath was found behind some shrubs. It has minor damage. The vandal left a ladder behind.

As for the matter with vandalism,which is exactly what it is,'with minor damage',it was given back to nature.(being in the shrubs)
Vandalsim is a crime.....therefore Vandalism should be the subject at hand...and not why can't it be next to the Nativity or what what faith stole who's holiday etc......
As with all religious artifacts,it comes down to matters of respect and not what people feel will make it peaceful by trying to make things seem like it is ok ...For all Christians,The Word of the Lord, said this about the last days(letter to the last epoch the church will go through)
'' ‘I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm,
and neither cold nor hot,
I will spue thee out of my mouth’ (Rev. 3:15,16. KJV).
For this reason, It's not about the people , it's about holding onto the truth and traditions taught, whether by Word of mouth or tradition....
Respect the people, and do not judge.....
Be kind to your neighbors and Love, above everything else...(Love does not mean one has to follow what everyone else is saying and doing)
Also does not mean we have to bow down and accept what is being offered...
“Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not any unclean thing, and I will receive you” (II Cor. 6:17).
''Wishing all a Merry Christmas''

helen

reply to post by helen670


Helen 670, with all due respect, do you not see that having ONLY a Nativity scene on GOVERNEMENT property is religious discrimination? It has been a Pagan holiday long before Christianity celebrated the once-Pagan holiday now known as "Christmas".
If a Christian came to a Pagan gathering with a cross, well, I think that most Pagans would sit down and talk with you and ask you why you did such a thing. They would probably try to patiently and respectfully educate you as to what Paganism REALLY is. THey would probably also let the Cross stay and we would honor it and celebrate Diversity, because Diversity is at the heart of our spiritual path. This, in spite of the fact that many Christians have spread ugly and untrue rumors about Pagans and will often try to prevent Pagans from any public religious displays. THis is not an isolated incident, it happens all the time. It is only because of Christian beliefs in this country that Pagans are looked down upon. Unfortunately, you have been misled by the predominant Christian culture; Pagans are not evil. We do not wish harm to anyone and, as a group, we are probably much more welcoming to other religions than most. We don't believe in Satan, and so, therefore, are not Satanic. Please, Helen, do some research and educate yourself. We are a religion of Love and Peace, not judgmentalness. As a Pagan, I believe that Pagans can learn some things from Christians; Christians could also learn some things from Pagans, but unfortunately, many Christians are fearful of us, because they have been given wrong information about Pagans, and so, want to separate themselves from any Pagan teachings. It is sad, really, because there are many Pagans who honor Jesus and try to live by His words, in addition to their Pagan beliefs. So you see, the two religions can be honored together. So Mote It Be.
FL

Originally posted by forestlady
Helen 670, with all due respect, do you not see that having ONLY a Nativity scene on GOVERNEMENT property is religious discrimination?

If you wanted to display your symbols on a major pagan holiday (and the Christmas one, or Yule, is a minor one), and the mayor said "no", I think I would agree with you. However, in this case, the Nativity is literally the process by which Christ was born. No wreaths, pentacles or tentacles for that matter have any relevance to the rite of Nativity.

It has been a Pagan holiday long before Christianity celebrated the once-Pagan holiday now known as "Christmas".

Well, and Lithuania used to rule a major chunk of Europe a few centuries ago. Your point? In days of yore, the Golden Horde was collecting tribute from one of the vastest empires ever built. Do we have to write a fat check this Christmas season and send it to Mongolia?

If a Christian came to a Pagan gathering with a cross, well, I think that most Pagans would sit down and talk with you and ask you why you did such a thing.

Oh I see. It would actually raise brows. Surprise surprise. They wouldn't just let it be, would they?

They would probably try to patiently and respectfully educate you as to what Paganism REALLY is.

Why, did I express any desire to be educated about the paganism? No, I brought my cross, and that's that. Why would these pagans want to force their beliefs down my throat?

Helen 670, with all due respect, do you not see that having ONLY a Nativity scene on GOVERNEMENT property is religious discrimination?

Was it not allowed to be put there?
From what I understood, it was allowed to be put there because it is Christmas.
As for discrimination?
Why would a Pentacle be want to be placed next to the Nativity?
For what purpose does this serve?
Mans or Gods?
I dont see it as discrimination at all........but I see it as discrispectful for a Pentacle to be placed next to the Nativity.....for many of the obvious reasons other members gave as well.
It actually becomes a personal opinion as well as the Word of God.....which is above all !

It has been a Pagan holiday long before Christianity celebrated the once-Pagan holiday now known as "Christmas".

Yep, heard it all before and will never stop.
Well Of course Christianity came later and in remembrance, it has since been celebrated,........does this mean a Pentacle has to be next to the nativity?
Respect , remember!

If a Christian came to a Pagan gathering with a cross, well, I think that most Pagans would sit down and talk with you and ask you why you did such a thing. They would probably try to patiently and respectfully educate you as to what Paganism REALLY is.

Well, I would not personally come to a Wiccan festival with a Cross......because I would respect that it is not part of their custom, therefore I would not do this...out of respect!
It would be different if I was there to learn something!
Then I would not carry religious artifacts to such a gathering because I would be disrespectful!
Isn't that correct?

THey would probably also let the Cross stay and we would honor it and celebrate Diversity, because Diversity is at the heart of our spiritual path.

Again, I find this very confusing as to why 'Wicca' would want to do this?
I would not accept such a thing!
Diversity is at the heart of our Spiritual path only when the Truth be told....there can be no other way.
So what you are saying is that it is ok for me to come and sing Psalms in the middle of a 'Wiccan ' celebration and I would be welcomed?
Please, this is not so....

This, in spite of the fact that many Christians have spread ugly and untrue rumors about Pagans and will often try to prevent Pagans from any public religious displays. THis is not an isolated incident, it happens all the time. It is only because of Christian beliefs in this country that Pagans are looked down upon. Unfortunately, you have been misled by the predominant Christian culture; Pagans are not evil.

Just because people want to spread rumours, does not mean God told them to do so, does it?
In some cases you have 'God told me to do this' and where's the proof that it was in fact God,that told them this , and not something else?
What can I say, people will do this, regarding one being Christian, Moslem or Jew or Wiccan or one of the many other faiths?
True?
I'm not judging you or any other Wiccan or religious figure...it all comes down to the individual, as to how they act, in regards to the matter.

. We do not wish harm to anyone and, as a group, we are probably much more welcoming to other religions than most. We don't believe in Satan, and so, therefore, are not Satanic. Please, Helen, do some research and educate yourself. We are a religion of Love and Peace, not judgmentalness. As a Pagan, I believe that Pagans can learn some things from Christians; Christians could also learn some things from Pagans, but unfortunately, many Christians are fearful of us, because they have been given wrong information about Pagans, and so, want to separate themselves from any Pagan teachings. It is sad, really, because there are many Pagans who honor Jesus and try to live by His words, in addition to their Pagan beliefs. So you see, the two religions can be honored together. So Mote It Be.
FL

F.L/
I nor any members(as far as I have read)have not stated that we wish harm.....Why would I wish harm and go against what Jesus Christ taught about Loving one's neighbour?
Would I not be contradicting myself as a True Christian ?
I know quite a bit about Wiccan....please understand that I never said Satan was your belief.
I guess it would benefit those that do not know about the beliefs of Wiccans and decide for themselves....but again,it all comes down to Respecting ones traditions about Christmas and how it is celebrated.
Nature is taught by many Fathers of the early church......respect what God gave and in turn all will be in harmony...nature truly has been abused, but this does not mean that placing ones beliefs alongside of anothers beliefs will make all things Nice?
But, unfortunately many people go beyond respect and find 'Greed' is their faith, and therefore Greed rules them without them knowing, it is dragging them down.
'Fear' I honestly can say that I fear God alone....for He is my judge!
What possible harm can man do to me?
Kill me?
Well, look at this verse from scripture.....
''Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matt. 10, 28)
Therefore I fear not people in regards as to what one has beliefs in.
As for living together as people and members of society.....It is a good thing and I have no argument there!
I'm sure all people without judgment would accept to live happily together...but to force a situation that many call 'Modernization' of the peoples beliefs and how they celebrate their faith according to Humanist ideas instead of the Word of God, will never be right in the eyes of God....as Scripture forbids this.....
One can either take Scripture as a whole, or not at all....man does not make the rules.(this is another matter,another post)
It all comes down to Love....
Loving someone does not mean that one has to accept 'Modern ideas' about peaceful resolutions to the worlds problems.
Hope that makes a little more sense as to what I have said...
take care,
helen

Originally posted by helen670
Why would a Pentacle be want to be placed next to the Nativity?

Because that is what an AMERICAN CITIZEN desired, as is entitled them per the First Amendment.

For what purpose does this serve?

The fulfillment of the dream of the fathers of this country.

Mans or Gods?

The United States Government.

I dont see it as discrimination at all

Then you need to brush up on your American History.

It actually becomes a personal opinion as well as the Word of God.....which is above all !

So put yourselves under the authority, not for fear of wrath, but because you have the knowledge of what is right. For the same reason, make payment of taxes; because the authority is God's servant, to take care of such things at all times. Give to all what is their right: taxes to him whose they are, payment to him whose right it is, fear to whom fear, honour to whom honour is to be given.
Romans 13:5-7

GOD and JESUS both said to obey the CIVIL authorities. Even for the sake of GOD's good name.

Respect , remember!

EXACTLY. And HUMAN RIGHTS. AS given by GOD.

This isn't about whose religion is right...it is about the LAW of the LAND in which you live. Of which freedom you expect to enjoy. Do not exalt your own beliefs above others - be fair and righteous even as your GOD is.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
However, in this case, the Nativity is literally the process by which Christ was born. No wreaths, pentacles or tentacles for that matter have any relevance to the rite of Nativity.

NO doubt. But this country is NOT a 'christian' country. It is a free country built upon two things:

FREEDOM OF RELIGION
&
FREEDOM FROM TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.

Once again, EDUCATE yourself about the country of which is your citizenship!

If you like speaking your mind...then you will think about what I am saying.

reply to post by helen670


It seems that the meaning of Christmas while the birth of the Christ, is not limited or exclusively to one religious group or the other, the holidays is for everybody to celebrate is they whish to do.

In our nation religion is free to be expressed by all.

Thanks for the nice littler preaching but this thread is not about the bible or preaching but wanted or no is about religious intolerance and discrimination against another form of religion.

Violation by the city over religious issue is going to become part of the whole incident.

You can sugar coated with Bible quotes but the constitution stands as it is.



[edit on 20-12-2007 by marg6043]

Wow. Some very pleasant people here.

First off, what "the majority" thinks in this situation should be, and ultimately is irrelevant. Religious groups were invited to add a display to suit their tastes. Simple as that. They shouldn't even need the invitation to do so on public property.

What some posters here seem to be forgetting is that this is not a Christian nation. A majority of the people are at least nominally of one Christian sect, cult, or denomination or another, but this is not reflected in any official capacity. We do not need to ask their permission and bow to their demands to do as we please regarding our own religions.

Like it or not, Christianity isn't the only game in town anymore, and the presumption that it is due exclusive privileges is going to be thrown out sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.

It's threads like this that really make me think the world would benefit greatly from a few more hungry lions.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Wow. Some very pleasant people here.

Isn't there? It just makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside doesn't it?

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by helen670

 

It seems that the meaning of Christmas while the birth of the Christ, is not limited or exclusively to one religious group or the other, the holidays is for everybody to celebrate is they whish to do.

In our nation religion is free to be expressed by all.

Thanks for the nice littler preaching but this thread is not about the bible or preaching but wanted or no is about religious intolerance and discrimination against another form of religion.

Violation by the city over religious issue is going to become part of the whole incident.

You can sugar coated with Bible quotes but the constitution stands as it is.



[edit on 20-12-2007 by marg6043]

You know,
as much as I can be nice,
I can speak my mind to defend my right and my faith,especially when it comes down to it.......(all below are your own quotes.....links not provided)
You said,''Nice little preaching''???
C'mon, you started the little 'preaching' yourself when you made this statement.......

Actually even when Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus by bible time line Dec 25 was not even the right day so what is been celebrated is actually the winter solstice, so who invaded what.

I am been funny not meaning to start a fight of what belongs to who.

Anyway I love the holidays be winter solstice celebration or the birth of the Bible Jesus.

You seem to have turned it into the discrimination and intolerance you so speak of..... Just because I can tolerate and respect another faith, it does not mean I have to be in Communion with them!

and also this

yes you are right I am too lazy today to look for links, but actually Constantino did his mother wishes when it came to the new Christian Religion, even when he waited to be in his dying bed to become a Christian.

He always had a thing for the sun god.

Lazy as you think, but you are also very wrong!
What 'new' Christian religion?
Constantine did not do as you say.......read your History correctly!
Read the early church fathers!
And since you enjoyed making mockery of something you have no knowledge about,don't go there!
Past mistakes are forgiven by the Almighty God when one truly repents...not only by Word, but by ones actions!

And so again....

The Christmas spirit comes from within, is nothing more than a personal feeling that comes attach to the belief that feed that feeling and the soul.

A Christian will still be Christian with holidays or not holidays, pagan decorations or just a Nativity set.

Because it comes from you, it comes from the hart and nobody can take that away from you.

This is exactly how people get brainwashed!
''The Christmas spirit comes from within'' and so I hear and read about it all over ,everywhere!
What does it mean exactly?
Christianity or any practicing faith have their traditions and beliefs.....leave it to them to do as they wish.(as long as it does not endanger the people around them)
Whats a birthday party without your friends or someone whom you like to celebrate it with?
Or lets say entertaining?
Whats an entertainment without a celebration of some sort?
And again we have another quote/

So When saying that it should not be anything else next to the nativity display in the city hall it sounds like religious intolerance to me.

No, it is not religious intolerance...I call it interference without respect whatsoever for anothers personal choice of faith!
Place the Pentacle, away from the nativity scene........it bears no significance to the nativity!

And another quote/

The Wiccan wreath was put up after the mayor and City Council president erected a nativity display. Hoping to avoid the constitutional issue of separation of church and state, they invited non-Christians to put up their displays too.

And so it was!
Why was it placed next to the nativity?
What purpose did that serve?
Again, out of respect, it should have been put elsewhere away from the nativity!
It had no purpose to be next to the nativity.
another quote/

that is the one thing that I can not understand when it comes to religious organizations is the many Christian denominations in our nation, they can never agree with each other only that they all call themselves Christians.

A nation built on the base that Religion should be practiced freely and without persecution still Is groups of religious extremist that will persecute anything that do not agree with their own interpretation of what Religious freedom is about.

Vandalizing that Wreath only proves one point, is still acts of persecution in our nation.

Again, practice your religion freely....no one is telling you not to do this!
Respect others practise of beliefs!
You tell me, what is your interpretation of 'Religious freedom'?
It was take away and thrown in the bushes......ok, vandalism is a crime under Mans law......do what needs to be done and leave Christmas be celebrated as it should!

Is not about your nativity or your personal church of choice nativity is about public grounds and with permission by the very nice state government to bring the joy to everybody and for everybody to show their favorite religious and none religious display.

Yes it has been said!
Its about the respect.
Lets say permission is granted to have pictures put up on a board, on public display.....does that mean, I can place a picture of mine, on top of another public picture,when there is space for it elsewhere?
If I was to do this, it would mean that I have no respect for what is in the surroundings and would only be thinking of my own selfish reasons be it for whatever purpose it serves.
and another....

your reply to buddasystem/
''Your are turning the thread into a personal issue and your personal campaign against Forestlady personal choice of religious worship.

I don't think, buddahsystem is making this a personal issue at all!
Especially not campaigning against forestlady......as far as I can see, all that was done was to give an opinion as to why a Pentacle should not be placed next to the nativity.
It looks like, you are the one, making it into a personal issue.,

My opinion, as well as other members here(not trolling, but replying to a post)count as we are all free to give that opinion.
What is the problem of using a quote from Scripture.
Have I bashed anyones faith or beliefs by giving my opinion, or has anyone else for that matter?

As for the free religious practice...no one said you can't do this!
No one disagrees with that!
No one is accusing anyone of anything!

The original post asked for an opinion........this is exactly what people gave.
Would that be tolerant on your part?
Respecting ones faith and tradition is all good...but interference is not !

And queenannie/
as for this verse from Scripture/
''So put yourselves under the authority, not for fear of wrath, but because you have the knowledge of what is right. For the same reason, make payment of taxes; because the authority is God's servant, to take care of such things at all times. Give to all what is their right: taxes to him whose they are, payment to him whose right it is, fear to whom fear, honour to whom honour is to be given.
Romans 13:5-7

I respect that which 'Mans Law' has to say and offer, but that does not mean I have to accept it as being right and honourable!

This isn't about whose religion is right...it is about the LAW of the LAND in which you live. Of which freedom you expect to enjoy. Do not exalt your own beliefs above others - be fair and righteous even as your GOD is.

We're not talking about which religion or faith is right or wrong!.
Who is exalting one's beliefs,you are the one doing this!
I am not exalting my beleifs, please get real!
All I'm doing, is stating a fact,a fact based on Scripture.

external source///
The Persecutions

The second century saw the further development of the Christian faith and the greater persecution of the Church by the Roman imperial authorities, for whom Christianity was an “illegal religion.”

The Christians were criminals in the eyes of the Romans, not only religiously, but also politically.
They transgressed the laws of the state because they refused to honor the earthly emperor as king, lord, and god, which was required of them as members of imperial society.
They prayed for the civil authorities and gave “honor to whom honor is due” (Romans 13:1-7),
but they refused to give the earthly king the glory and worship which was due to God, and to His Christ, alone.
Thus the Roman law declared: It is not lawful to be a Christian.
here

That is right!
You are correct!
Give honor to where honor is due!

helen

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Thank God there is still common sense left in these people. Just like swasticas should not be hung in the vicinity of Jewish symbols of faith out of respect, consideration should be afforded to Christians who want to celebrate, well, Christmas and not some kind of interfaith festival at this particular point in time.

well said

reply to post by helen670


I know my history very well, but in my case is not feed by religous bias to favor my believes.

Nice littler post but only shows how ignorance still plague our nation while preaching that is the other way around.

Perhaps anybody that do not subscribe to the extremist believe that you seem to favor should go back into caves until they repent and convert or be deal with.

That kind of thinking is just like the one Islamic extremist are using to kill people.

But in American we have laws to prevent radicalism, now you want to start a bashing fight and I am not for it.

See is the holidays, I am in a good spiritual mood, perhaps you should stop bashing and join the joy of the season and love thee brother like youself.

Merry Christmas to you too.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
Do we have to write a fat check this Christmas season and send it to Mongolia?

Apparently so.

Personally, I think it's the least we can do in appreciation for the sudden proliferation of Mongolian Barbecue restaurants.

Is this whole topic of public holiday displays ironic, absurd, or hilarious? Or some combination thereof? "Let me hang my symbol of Peace and Love, or I'll kick your ass."

I find it amusing, but then I have a very twisted sense of humor.

reply to post by yeahright


I agree but in may case I find it disturbing to see that those that claim to be Christians and abide by Christian laws seems to be the ones spreading intolerance and disrespect for others religious believes.

But then again under the umbrella of religions the worst wars has been fought in earth so we are facing some dangerous times when it comes with extremist believes and they are not limited to Islamic fundamentalist only.

Beware of the warriors for Jesus extremist christian fundamentalist They are not arm with weapons or bombs and lo and behold they will never die for Jesus or God, but they use intimidation, hate and indiscrimination trying to turn American into their version of Christianity even if that means getting rid of any other christian denomination so you can imagine what they want for none christian followers.

This has to stop because in our nation we have laws.

reply to post by marg6043


Does anyone think bickering over holiday displays does anything toward rectifying the situation? You know what I'd be telling the mayor? "Hey, stop futzing around with the holiday knick-knacks and fill a friggin' pothole, would ya?"

It's a pointless distraction from what government should be doing. If someone wants to festoon their own property with whatever floats their boat, great. I like holiday decorations as much as the next person. But this squabbling about whether or not Raven Silverwolf can hang a pentacle over Virldean Snoat's nativity scene made out of rumaki at the courthouse unless Pilar's Night of the Radishes sulpture is unimpeded is petty, unnecessarily contentious, pointless, avoidable, and damn funny.

reply to post by yeahright


I agree this is not time for bickering and disrespect, but for good will and unification, love and peace.

At least the city council try to do that in his town but we see from where the intolerance came first.

Sad but true, for some reason the holidays should bring the best out of everybody not the opposite.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by helen670
Why would a Pentacle be want to be placed next to the Nativity?

Because that is what an AMERICAN CITIZEN desired, as is entitled them per the First Amendment.

Oh please... You know full well that all the Americans here as well as others are aware of the First and it's implications. Don't plead ignorance to that realization.

The nooses hung from trees in a nice little town of Jena were probably aligned with the First Amendment, which in no way means it was OK to do so.

I'm sitting here laughing to myself thinking, "Wow... some people here honestly feel the Nativity Scene has 1st dibs on it being displayed.. how Christian of them." Like Paganism is some dirty red headed step-child whom the rest of the family dosnt speak about and tosses table scraps to during supper.

Ya know... maybe in another 50-100 years all of these religions can mesh into one and such bias can give way to a greater tolerance of eachother.

Just published:

www.cnn.com...

Because of all the politically correct idiots, we are being encouraged to stop saying "Merry Christmas" for the more palatable "Happy Holidays." What the heck are "Seasons Greetings"? Can someone tell me what season we are greeting folks about? A Christmas tree? Oh, no! It's now a holiday tree. Any Christmas song that even remotely mentions Christ or has a religious undertone is being axed for being overtly religious. And I'm sorry, forget X-M-A-S. Malcolm X? Yes. X replacing Christ? No.

Don't get me wrong; I'm very respectful of other religions. I don't want anyone to be afraid of discussing the Jewish faith when we address Hanukkah. And we shouldn't dismiss Muslims when the annual pilgrimage to Mecca is held during December. In fact, Americans are so ignorant of other faiths that we can all learn from one another.

But this seeming backlash against Christianity is bordering on the absurd, and we should continue to remember that Jesus is the reason for the season.