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Wiccan Yule Wreath Vandalized

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posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 11:15 PM
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Originally posted by mattifikation
Remember your "third option" gets you arrested for vandalism if you're caught.


Yes! Theoretically, same applies to the guy who left poop on the toilet seat.



Society doesn't condone the destruction of other people's stuff; it tolerates it significantly less than paganism, even.


So according to you, the Yula is of less value to the society than the toilet seat?




posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 11:25 PM
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So according to you, the Yula is of less value to the society than the toilet seat?


I'm not even going to consider how a person could take what I said and come to that conclusion.

Please - don't explain. I'll yield this debate entirely, right now, if you spare me the "explanation."



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by mattifikation
I'll yield this debate entirely, right now, if you spare me the "explanation."


Accepted. You wrote it up yourself anyway.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem

So according to you, the Yula is of less value to the society than the toilet seat?





Society certainly treats a toilet seat with more respect than it does paganism, yes. As hard as it may be for you to see through your biased eyes, it is the truth.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 12:55 AM
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reply to post by buddhasystem
 



Firstly Congrats on the little blessing! I had my first 18 months ago, and I promise your going to love every minute of it! But, Back to topic.

I agree with your point of water worship for sea faring societies. I am not really trying to differentiate between the earth and water as the Physical structure in and of it self more so as a provider(mother earth) of the resources that sustain our lives.

If a person really wants to worship and inanimate object that with the insertion of a plug cools their food, so be it. I may not agree with it, but they are allowed to practice whatever they choose. but... at that point I do have an issue with a fridge siting on my cities property as a religious display.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 01:17 AM
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While I wouldn't make a huge deal out of this (no one was injured and the vandal didn't make an attempt to leave a particularly hateful message), I would say that the incident no doubt stems from ignorance on someone's part. They probably thought pagan's were Satan worshipers or something like that.

Making that assumption, this incident is further evidence of what I said in the "Muslim helps Jews attacked on NY subway" post.




Ignorance is the true root of all evil. This issue isn't about religion, it's about how people's perceptions, opinion's, and reaction's can be warped and perverted by ignorance, even to the point that they see somebody as less than human.
...
Ignorance isn't bliss, it is a plague that we have to strive to eradicate.

No matter who you think your savior is for the next life (if indeed you believe in an afterlife or higher power), in this life, our only savior is knowledge and the pursuit of wisdom.



I do recognize that this incident isn't as serious as the "Muslim...subway" issue, but the principles are the same.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 06:37 AM
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may just be mindless vandalism, hard to tell without a conviction.

I have no problem with displaying other faiths, but does it always have to be in relation to Christian displays, for example, if there is an Islamic festival in britain I don't want a Christian image bunged onto it in the interests of "fairness"



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by blueorder
I have no problem with displaying other faiths, but does it always have to be in relation to Christian displays, for example, if there is an Islamic festival in britain I don't want a Christian image bunged onto it in the interests of "fairness"


That's a very good point, which many of the forum participants would agree with. But you see, there is all sort of lunacy going on in the United States. The PC is used and abused full throttle.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 10:33 AM
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This isn't about being PC, it's about discrimination, pure and simple. Now, here's an update on the story, from the group that put up the wreath. The City Council voted to keep the Nativity scene, but not allow any other symbols of other religions. A lawsuit has been filed on the basis of religious discrimination. Here is an excerpt from the press release:

"The Mayor cast the deciding vote in the City Council meeting last night
which permitted only the nativity scene to stay at City Hall out of
consideration for Christians celebrating Christmas in the community and
which denied other symbols including the Yuletide pentacle wreath.

Although the Mayor acknowledged to Fox that he could call a special
meeting to consider her request today to have the pentacle wreath up just
for Solstice, he told Fox that he was unwilling to do this. Rev. Fox and
Mayor Schmitt agreed to talk again in 2008 in connection with the creation
of requirements that the he and other City officials plan to draft for
holidays displays at City Hall for next year."


Several articles with more info here:
www.circlesanctuary.org...



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 10:36 AM
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The man who donated the Nativity scene, MR. Fradette, is a member of the City Council. Even he expressed disappointment that the City Council voted to keep the Nativity scene but not any other non-Christian displays.
This isn't just about Pagans, it's about human rights and freedom of religion for ALL people who aren't Christian. Just because we're not part of the majority of people called Christians, doesn't mean we should be treated like second-class citizens.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by forestlady
This isn't about being PC, it's about discrimination, pure and simple.


Why have you broken your promise to ignore my posts?


"The Mayor cast the deciding vote in the City Council meeting last night which permitted only the nativity scene to stay at City Hall out of
consideration for Christians celebrating Christmas


Thank God there is still common sense left in these people. Just like swasticas should not be hung in the vicinity of Jewish symbols of faith out of respect, consideration should be afforded to Christians who want to celebrate, well, Christmas and not some kind of interfaith festival at this particular point in time.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by forestlady
 


Interesting that they took such a drastic approach taking into consideration that this is the season of reflections and good will for all mankind.

But as usual bigotry, ignorance and intolerance won over the incident turning into an ugly issue right in the middle of the holiday, perhaps next year we should follow up and see if the intolerance toward other systems of belief will be allow, in which case it should become a public issue and a violation of the constitutional right of freedom of religion.

Thanks for that nice update.
and for been so graceful through the whole ordeal that is affecting you in a very and sensitive way.
even with the unnecessary trolling.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 01:48 PM
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Thanks Marg for the kind words and for your support. It will be interesting to see what happens next year in Green Bay. It will also be interesting to see how the lawsuit turns out. Whenever it is resolved, I'll be happy to post an update in a new thread.

I am surprised though that no one else besides you, Marg, has commented on the outcome. Anyone have any thoughts about the results?



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady
In Green Bay, Wisconsin, a Wiccan Yule wreath was placed alongside a nativity scene to celebrate interfaith religions. The Yule wreath was vandalized, leaving the Nativity scene untouched.

www.620wtmj.com...

"GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) -- A Wiccan wreath, put up at Green Bay City Hall, was vandalized early Monday.

The Wiccan wreath was put up after the mayor and City Council president erecteda nativity display. Hoping to avoid the constitutional issue of separation of church and state, they invited non-Christians to put up their displays too.

The wreath was found behind some shrubs. It has minor damage. The vandal left a ladder behind.

The City Council is expected to decide tomorrow whether the nativity scene can remain at City Hall.

The city has received six requests to display other non-Christian symbols, including the Wiccan star wreath, which was added last Friday."


***********
www.todaystmj4.com...

"Fradette and Mayor Jim Schmitt invited non-Christian religions to submit displays, and the city has received at least six such requests. The pagan Wiccan five-pointed star was the second such display, which was added Friday.

Wicca is a nature-based religion based on respect for the earth, nature and the cycle of the seasons. But variations of the pentacle not accepted by Wiccans have been used in horror movies as a sign of the devil.

Two residents had brought their own symbols Monday morning.

"How is that fair to leave the manger up but not the non-Christian symbols?" said Taku Ronsman, who brought a peace display that she said represents the Unitarian Universalist faith."



What does everyone think? How do you think this should be resolved? How do you feel about the Pentacle being put next to the Nativity scene?
Should there even be public religious displays on government property?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

-----------------------------------------
Replaced ALL CAPS in title and added 'ex' tags for external material







[edit on 18/12/07 by masqua]



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 03:45 PM
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Well, I am sure to some Christians, forestlady, it is disgraceful that there are those with so much contempt that they would try and destroy or remove another religion's symbol,I know it is to this Christian. Christians have to fight hard just for the right to display their nativity scene in their own yard. So, many of them can probably relate to how you feel.



[edit on 20-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Christians have to fight hard just for the right to display their nativity scene in their own yard. So, many of them can probably relate to how you feel.


And you can imagine the uphill battle that the pagans must go through to hang a Yule in their own backyard!

They didn't even bother to ask the mayor about the possibility to display appropriate symbols on the major pagan festivals, which do not intervene with Christian holidays. That would be too plain and not worth the effort, I suppose.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
And you can imagine the uphill battle that the pagans must go through to hang a Yule in their own backyard!



Given most people's misconceptions about paganism and what it entails, I imagine they have a very hard fight ahead of them indeed. One in which I'll support them in any way that I can.



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady
This isn't about being PC, it's about discrimination, pure and simple. Now, here's an update on the story, from the group that put up the wreath. The City Council voted to keep the Nativity scene, but not allow any other symbols of other religions.


YEP!
There ya' go!


They have now literally violated the first amendment of the United States Constitution.


Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Most of this discussion has been about whether or not pentacles have anything to do with the Christ-child, blah-blah-blah...

But MOST of you have missed the BOTTOM LINE serious issue in this situation, which has now been illustrated in reality for your further review.

Sorry about the ranting-tone. But I tried to tell you! (most of you, that is!)



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
Thank God there is still common sense left in these people.


Common sense??? Not the Thomas Paine type!

Common sense...is breaking US FEDERAL LAW according to the US Constitution?

Have you ever READ the federal documents which define the nature of the US?

Do YOU enjoy your human rights?



posted on Dec, 20 2007 @ 06:08 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


I am afraid that this issue will be reaching the courts in not time at all. Personaly I am glad if it happens because no religion in this nation should be given favoritism disregarding the laws already in place to protect that everybody has their freedom of religion and do not become just a preference choice.

Plus is the issue of state and religion involved here also.

I will love to follow up this one, this is bound to become a big issue rightfully so.



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