Originally posted by LightinDarkness

No matter how you spin it, in general people make money beyond the cost of living. They get in debt generally because they buy things they cant afford. There are exceptions (acts of god, medical crises), but that is the rule.

There you go again People are in debt and poor because they buy things they can't afford. Has nothing to do with the fact that the economy is inherently trillions of dollars in debt? Has nothing to do with the fact that each citizen is 30,000+ dollars in the hole along with their government?

Nah, it's because they buy stuff they can't afford.

Originally posted by LightinDarkness

See, more ad hominem attacks by someone who can't back up their own absurd arguments.

Don't be mad, not everyone can make up a good conspiracy theory that stands up to the light of truth.

This has become less a debate and more a display of bad-will towards the topic in general. You think the idea of a lopsided and faulty economy driven by debt is a conspiracy theory. We get it. No need to point fingers and laugh. It's also rude to continually say 'oh don't be mad just because you're wrong. 'you're foaming at the mouth because i am refuting your evidence' etc.

This is just a wee bit childish don't you think? I think you have both made your case.

By the way : there have been no ad hom 'attacks' made in this thread and I can be a witness to that. Plenty of jabs though. It seems a bit desperate to claim that he is attacking you by debating or even laughing at you... but I see people throw that accusation around ALOT on these forums.


[edit on 14-12-2007 by NewWorldOver]

Originally posted by NewWorldOverThere you go again People are in debt and poor because they buy things they can't afford. Has nothing to do with the fact that the economy is inherently trillions of dollars in debt? Has nothing to do with the fact that each citizen is 30,000+ dollars in the hole along with their government?

Nah, it's because they buy stuff they can't afford.

There you go again not reading. I said there are exceptions. Beyond that, yes, people are in debt because they buy stuff they cant afford. Has nothing to do with the NATIONAL DEBT? Yes, because that is the government's spending, not the individual's. Nice try. Do you receive a bill for the $30,000 of national debt that we have per capita? I know I don't. No creditors coming after me for that one. Its the government's debt, not yours.

But nah, they are poor because of some governmental conspiracy, never because of their own actions

I am not going to quote the endless ad hominem attacks. If you don't see it, I cannot help you. It is indeed a wee bit childish of you and and the tinfoil hat group to tell me that every point of fact I present must be MADE UP by the government, and obviously I must be rich because I take personal responsibility for my actions.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

Originally posted by jackinthebox
Violent 47 52
Property 23 21
Drug 22 20
Public-order 9 7

I appreciate you proving my point with your numbers. Do you notice NON-VIOLENT CRIME HAS GONE DOWN! OH NO! But I thought everyone was living in poverty and having to steal thanks to the government conspiracy?

You should know that just because you declare people commit crime due to their economic situation does not make it so. You have made the assertion, and I have again and again asked you to present facts showing this. You have not done so, and until you do I must yet again remind you that people commit crimes for all sorts of reasons, and there is no evidence to suggest they do it just because they are poor.

I am ready to let this die whenever you are. Or, you can keep espousing your theories, and I'll keep demanding proof and citing statistics to the contrary. Except in posts like this, where your data actually shows your conclusions to be wrong - in which case, I have no work to do.

If people weren't out buying all sort of things they didn't need, our economy would collapse. That is why our esteemed President told us the best thing we could do to fight the terrorists was to "go shopping." I don't know about you, but I think I'm gonna go do my patriotic duty with someone else's credit card!

Originally posted by jackinthebox
Actually I am glad to see you prove your own ignorance yet again, and I am waiting for you do disprove any of the data I have provided.

Those numbers do not show that non-violent crime has gone down, only that criminals have become more violent.

No evidence to suggest that people commit crime because they are poor? Tell that to the banger who jacks your tore-up whip ta git to dat Fiddy show.

See, more spin with no evidence.

How exactly is it when you have a number - and then another number in a few years, and THE SECOND NUMBER IS SMALLER THAN THE FIRST - THAT IT HAS NOT DECREASED? Are you REDEFINING REALITY? Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

We still await your evidence that people commit crimes because they are poor. Just because you don't have morals doesn't mean other people don't. I'm poor, and I'm not committing any crimes. I must deduct another ten points from your score for this continued used of the sweeping generalization logical fallacy.

I didn't have to see the video and the Economics Elf who Graduated from The David Stockman School of Voodoo Economics has posted more of the same repugnant cries for proof when everyone of these posts would be considered as Testimony which IS part of the discovery process and considered as evidence.

You think our monetary system and those controlling it are immune to greed, that insider trading is something only Gordon Gecko did in a fictional story about greed and by your own sig indicates that even if someone were to CALL IT THAT, you would summarily add insult invalidating it as "someones need to express evil"

I suppose you have never heard about taxation and the draconian methods used by our Government to extort money out of us to pay for overspending. You never heard about those retired on minimum wage. Many are the victims of the Enron's or shattered life's savings and pensions GONE POOF! In the meantime they are swindled in legalese or contracts that have pages and pages of legal doublespeak you would need a degree in contract law to understand. They are created for such things as Life Insurance where they have you making over payments on cheap term with with an annuity rider that earns you "Cash Value"! They even charge you interest to borrow your OWN MONEY!

Then when the creator of the policy dies you get the paltry death benefit or your cash value but not both.

You read the prospectus and it says pays dividends (another word for overpayment or the part they took and give back whenever they feel generous. They sell the "projected interest rate you will earn but sadly you find out that they are only obligated to pay you less then a passbook savings account.

What is your answer??
arrogance with words to the effect "they should have read the fine print" "they are stupid" or they should not buy things they cannot afford.

Your every man for himself answer to that and just about everything else you have said about minimum wage and that garbage about a middle class being a rumor having or an illusion when empires have fallen as this one will using the most historically proven indicator in history.

The ever increasing gap between Rich and Poor and the final elimination of the middle class.

We have a telecommunications infrastructure in bed with the FCC that we have paid over 200 billion in new taxes as surcharges our Government allowed them to steal in the promise by 1996 we would have affordable broadband using fiber optic for everyone and they renegged. I had even posted a page from Lee Iaccoca's book the same sentiments he has and warren buffet about the vulgar acts of the Fed and Bias tax laws favoring the rich. You know the rule of 72?

Do you remember the Boston Tea Party?

Well that is when the rule of 72 applies to those who think money is an expendable commodity and while your uppity attitude growing up in Ozzie and Harriet land may have kept you out of touch with us "stupid folk" it sure hasn't taught you a thing about the quality of humility.

You took that lesson and pushed it right over the cliff into humorous humiliation. People don't buy things like some bubblegum chewing finger filing bimbosapienne on a binge shopping spree . They are barely getting buy and while Gas Prices climb to record levels I have seen many making just enough after FICA, Taxes, Association fees that have jumped a hundred bucks, a kids toothache later,,

THEY ARE BROKE!

FLAT BROKE!

People today can't even afford to change jobs because they can't stay afloat while waiting that extra week to two weeks to get first check.

You talks as if the run on the banks before the depression as a cyclical anomaly not caused in purpose but rather just "happened" and Banks were just cogs in the system. That the FDIC is going to protect us from that eventuality ever happening again.

The quote of Rockefeller is either proof that convesation happened or didn't but in the event it did and in the context it said,, what MORE PROOF ?



[edit on 15-12-2007 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by OBE1
Probably a function of my age, but I no longer have the competitive drive & focus required to engage in mega-post Internet debates...purged of the overpowering need to be right, am I. Besides, almost every spirited attempt I've witnessed on "the forums", to convert "the other" to one's own POV...has ultimately deteriorated into volleys of personal insult..and resulted in utter stalemate for the respective combatants. The only winners are the onlookers...receiving an abundance of new grist-for-the-mill...thanks for that

Thanks that post speaks volumes and Ill go to school on you this time. Besides I have seen his "form letter ala randi" response to the rest and frankly it bored me to tears. Besides that, my mill was foreclosed on and for some reason only the rich like trump get bailed out of such things while my own state has us paying taxes to buy a new stadium for all those prima donna sports guys. it's called "Bank One Ball Park"

It ought to be called Tax payers Ball park. This tax was done without representation by "City Supervisors" no less

sheesh

I get a bill from the government every two weeks. It shows up right there under the title of FED. TAXES. If I don't pay that bill according to what has been sent forth then out come the "creditors" with their calls. If that dosen't work, out come the IRS henchmen with an arrest warrant.

I watch the whole video. I really didn't want to but for some reason I was compelled to finish it. I am in no way an economist, or anything to the likes, but to me the video had the ring of truth.

As for the prison population issue... I work in law enforcement. Everyday I deal with crime and I hate to say Light but the VAST majority of them come from way below the middle class. In my 5 years in the field I have seen one, that's right, ONE person who could be considered "rich" go to jail. Make of it what you will but that IS the truth.