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posted on Dec, 17 2007 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


Please link us to your post. I think it is important to gather as much information as possible on the subject. Even peripheral information counts. O what a web we weave!




posted on Dec, 17 2007 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by mybigunit
 


Please link us to your post. I think it is important to gather as much information as possible on the subject. Even peripheral information counts. O what a web we weave!


Not sure how to post the link but here is the www.abovetopsecret.com...'
that should work.



posted on Dec, 17 2007 @ 06:24 PM
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Ahh I guess you post it just like any other link



posted on Dec, 17 2007 @ 10:43 PM
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I can't remember if I posted it on this thread or not, so sorry if this is a repeat of info.

This is proof that there is in fact an illegal conspiracy of economics in the United States.

Article One, Section 10, of the US Constitution forbids anyone to "coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts."

In 1982 Federal Reserve Banks were ruled to be "independant privately owned and locally controlled corporations" by the Ninth Circuit Federal Court of Appeals. If they distribute bank notes that cannot be redeemed for gold or silver, then they are illegal under the Constitution.

The Fed issued their first notes in 1914, after Woodrow Wilson gave them their "foot in the door" the year before. Those notes were printed with the words, "This Note is Redeemable in Gold on Demand." The test was changed in 1950 to "This Note is Redeemable in Lawful Money." But since gold and silver are the only lawful money, the notes remained legal with the backing of such money.

Just after the Kennedy assasination, the Fed changed the test once again to read, "This note is Legal Tender for all Debts Public and Private." Looks legal right? It even says "legal tender" after all. But that's the problem, it is not legal tender. Only gold and silver are. All previous money was a promissory note for legal tender, not the tender itself.

All cash currency printed since 1964 is illegal under the Constitution, and has about as much value as a rubber check that hasn't been cashed yet. Trust me folks, the check is about to get cashed to the tune of 9.2 trillion dollars. Do you know what happens when you bounce a check that big? We're about to find out I fear.

If you want to read a little more about how JFK ties into this, click on the corresponding link under the signature heading.

If you think this stuff is important, please don't forget to flag this thread. I really think it's important that people see this video and really start to understand what is actually happening to this country.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 02:32 AM
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I should not have looked back over this thread. I am just going to point this out to ATSers, and then leave it again.


Originally posted by jackinthebox
This is proof that there is in fact an illegal conspiracy of economics in the United States.

Article One, Section 10, of the US Constitution forbids anyone to "coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts."


Actually, the constitution forbids any state government from doing that. That is quite different from "anyone" - as it it specifically does not forbid anyone except the state government from doing this.


Originally posted by jackinthebox
In 1982 Federal Reserve Banks were ruled to be "independant privately owned and locally controlled corporations" by the Ninth Circuit Federal Court of Appeals.


Indeed, they are a private corporation. Not a state government. Therefore, they are completely legal in distributing bank notes that cannot be redeemed for gold or silver. You have actually provided proof that there is no economic conspiracy.

This is why I invite people who read stuff like this to actually read the laws or sections of the law in question. You will often find entire theories are based off misconceptions like this.

Flame away, jack. If you don't respond by flaming, then I might come back...but I doubt that would happen.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Hello.....doesnt it sound a little wrong for the language to include the words "Federal" and "privately owned"? Doesnt federal mean government? Furthermore wouldnt that infer tax funds being used to run such institutions? Whats your point dude......thats like turning small local and state governments into corporations and LLC's which some of them do already. Yet where is the separation here between public funds and private? How do you combine the two?



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


By your interpretation of the Constitution, a private entity would be allowed to enter into a "treaty, alliance, or confederation" since they are not a state. Others would interpret such an act as treason. The same way I view the Federal Reserve System as a treasonous institution, acting in self interests counter to the good interests of the citizenry.



[edit on 12/19/0707 by jackinthebox]



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 


Actually, I am not intrepreting the constitutiton, I just read it. It says state government. Federal reserve is not a state government. And also, its not illegal for companies do enter into alliances and treaties - they do it all the time, its called corporate mergers. They cannot in fact enter into government related alliances and treaties because they are not governments.


You let me know the next time Coca-Cola Inc. offers to enter into a peace treaty with Spain. I'm quite sure the spanish parliament would be quite puzzled, since you know, Coca-Cola isn't a nation and has no governmental authority. On the other hand, states are legitimate governments AND DO have military forces at their disposal, which is why the constitution specifically forbids them from doing that.

There is a reason why the Supreme Court must always find justification for extending things like the establishment clause to the states. Did you know that the Supreme Court does not simply declare that the first amendment applies to the states, because the amendment only states "CONGRESS shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." It does not say states. The Court, however, in cases like Van Orden v. Perry, has determined that this amendment applies to the states through the use of various other constitutional amendments and case laws. The court reads the constitution the same way I do, and I'll take the Supreme Court's opinion any day over yours - no offense, of course.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I think our national economy should be regulated and controlled by our government, not a private corporation that operates in its own interests with very little oversight and counter to the interests of the citizenry. I think the national economy is well within the bounds of governmental authority.


[edit on 12/19/0707 by jackinthebox]



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


What jack just said is the whole point here and is the point that everyone on this thread was trying to make to you i beleive. They have no right to take advantage of tax paying citizens. "Federal" means tax funds are used doesnt it? If thats the case then there should be no oversight by some private corporate entity because we all know that the beuracracies that they represent are inherently descriminatory, greedy and selfish and that is not the type of institution you want in control of the nations economy is it? ABsolutely not....



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


You don't have to make me believe anything. I'm just reading the general statutes, the constitution, and regulatory law. It is what it is.

Federal DOES NOT mean "tax funds" are used. Tax funds are used at every level of government - local, state, and federal. Tax funds are also given to private individuals. Is an individual who receives welfare now considered federal government? Is a local government now federal government because they use tax funds? It would be under your definition. But this is not - nor has it ever been - the definition of federal government.

You also presume the federal bank can "control" the nations economy. If that was so, we'd never be in an economic recession or depression. The bank can only make short-term influences on the economy, but it cannot control the economy as a whole. The economy will do what it will do based on its own cycles, and the federal bank cannot stop it.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 04:12 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


I think you missed my point which is what happens unfortunately in these forums because much is lost in translation.
Can't they "control" whatever they want because of the fact that they might have ties with some of the largest corporations in the world who have hidden agendas and interest that they are willing to kill for to uphold? Isnt there supposed to be some sort of oversight to deter these institutions from doing things that are inherently against the well being of us citizens? You sit in poverty while they make billions and its not a question of whether or not they deserve it because im sure you have worked just as hard as most CEO's or even those retired board members that still get million dollar bonuses to prevent them from running a muck. Where is the equality in that system? Its nowhere to be found....i want to get out of debt, 41k to be exact actually but the interest rates will never let me....even if i stop using my credit cards which is impossible with the cost of food, gas, heat electricity and other necessities.
Would you go as far as to say that what is being done within this system is ethical? If it isnt then that means that it's wrong doesnt it.....do we not deserve financial freedom? According to you no, because i bought a lap top for college on my high interest credit card and didnt read all of the TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Well the human condition doesnt have any terms and conditions my friend you know that.....



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 04:17 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


The simple fact is....they dont care about us because as long as they can put money in their pockets the world just keeps on turning. The problem is that we pay income taxes which feed into these systems dont we? Then it becomes a public issue right? And forgive me for not including links or pie charts and whatnot but a portion of our income taxes go towards the national debt......im sure you can find evidence of that somewhere but i dont have time right now.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


Do you realize how many companies there are? How many HUGE companies there are? If they were somehow "collaborating" with the government, how is it huge companies often get slapped by the federal government? Microsoft anti-trust case, anyone? If these huge companies were truly controlling or in league with the government, these sorts of things would not happen - or they would happen on a very small scale. Companies cannot control the market place either. At the end of the day, someone must BUY their product and they cannot force people to do that.

Who is it that gets to decide what is against our "well being"? And how is it that any company could have that kind of power? Everyone disagrees on what is best for society, and companies in any case do not have enough power to change the well being of society at large, nor do they care about it, they are interesting in making products which they want you to buy. You do not have to buy their products. I am sure many people work as hard as CEOs, but just because I and other people work hard does not entitle us to equal compensation. Everyone is compensated based on where the market values their contribution. The market values CEO contributions more than my contributions - and I know that and understand that. There is nothing unfair about it. Why is it you believe that there must be some sort of forced equality of outcome? Equality of outcome is not actually equal, because it penalizes people who choose to contribute in different ways to society that have more value to those willing to pay them for their efforts.

I am sorry that you are in debt but I am sure you would acknowledge you made the decision to get in debt and barring some act of god or medical emergency, it is your responsibility. If the interest rates are high then refinance them, if you cannot because your credit is bad then work on getting good credit. Get a second job, or two. I know I have. You could choose to stop using your credit cards, its not impossible at all. I am at the poverty line and the only debt I have is student loans, which are about 75% less than the average student. I would find it hard to believe you could not stop using credit cards if you started drinking only water, bought in bulk, etc. If you could not, you are making so little money that you would be eligible for food stamps.

If you choose to buy a brand new laptop on a high interest credit card it is indeed your own fault. I know of no college that does not have free computer labs for students to use. If they don't, I also know of no public library that does not offer the same. The laptop was a want and not a need, and you decided to buy it when you did not have enough resources to pay for it. You used a credit card, for which it is your responsibility to read the AGREEMENT OF YOUR OWN LOAN. If you did not do so, that is no ones fault except yours. Read it, and if you don't like the terms cancel the card. This appeal to the "human condition" is irrelevant, because there is basic human right to a laptop. We are not talking about life and death here, we are talking about an optional purchase. Do not dramatize it.

The financial system is not meant to be ethical. I think it is fair in terms of people who owe money pay rates based on the risk of them defaulting. If I am unlikely to default because of my good credit, I should pay less than someone who has bad credit and is likely to default.

Your taxes does not "feed" into any system - and in fact, if you are as poor and in debt as you claim, you likely pay no or very little taxes to begin with. Your taxes pay for the schools you go to and and public infrastructure. Why do you continually claim that somehow the national debt is your debt? The fact that some taxes goes to national debt does not matter when it comes to your own person spending. If there was no national debt, you'd still be in credit card debt. And if there was no national debt, you would still be paying just as much taxes. You, who are so convinced that the government is evil, don't honestly think that Uncle Sam would lower taxes just because no national debt existed do you?

It is interesting how political ideology colors opinions. Your ideology makes you believe that government works for business, while I believe government works against business.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Why do you kepp telling me to just get a better rate on my cars? I have a 704 credit score and when i went to refinance they still gave me a 15% rate on the new loan.....what are you talking about? Its not about credit scores anymore or risk, its about money. Thats all .....you are totally missing the bigger freakin picture here. ITs not about my credit history because its good. The beuracracies are set up in such a manner to not allow you to get out of debt easily as if they were teaching me a lesson.....and so the billions in revenue and profit are what, just a side effect of an educational process? there is no justification for it ata ll..



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


LOL I am sorry, but you are either lying or not disclosing an important part of your financial history if you cannot get a credit card at 0% with a FICO of 700+. I don't really care for you to disclose your finances, but since you do keep relating this to your own personal situation:

- What is your debt to income ratio? If it is over 80%, this is a sign of you defaulting and you won't be able to get good credit rates.
- Do you have any judgments or liens on your credit report? This would prevent you from getting good credit rates.
- Have you ever declared bankruptcy? Declaring bankruptcy will put you on some creditor black lists for the rest of your life, even after it falls off your reports.
- Have you been trying to apply for new loan rates aggressively? Too many inquiries on your credit report is a warning sign.

Of course its all making money - who said it wasn't? I don't see a problem with them making money. If you choose to buy things you cannot pay for (like the laptop), then someone should profit off your decision. Same for me. I get the big picture, you do not - because you personally have debt you assume that you shouldn't have to pay for your choices. I disagree. You got yourself in debt, you can get yourself out. Its very easy to get out - pay down the debt. Don't spend money on optional purchases. Just because doing that would not allow you the high standard of living you want does not mean its wrong.

You do realize if no one profited off your decisions that there would be no credit and no loans? No one would be able to own a house, and you would not be able to ever buy anything that you do not have the resources for. That IS the big picture. You may want a world like that, but I - and others - do not.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 

Again you just misinterpreted everything i have just said....i never stated i was poor but do you have to be piss poor to complain about how unethical (as you said yourself) the system is? No....you dont and the fact that no one gets any breaks from these large corporations and they get all the breaks in the world, especially in the aviation and automobile industry, is just plain wrong. Dont call me a communist because you were hinting at that but do you really think those retired ceo's for exxon or whichever company it was in the paper that day, deserve their million dollar bonus? THEY WERE RETIRED!!! what kind of contribution do they bring? o....and what if the only reason they got the job was because of their father and his father and so on....what about that? They deserve what they get? BS BSBSBSBSBS!!!!
This has nothing to do with politics myfriend and im not trying to discriminate against good people.....and im also not complaining about the fact that i OWE money because veryone OWES money even you. What im saying is, give me a chance to pay it off and dont drown me in more debt by adding high interest....why is this so hard for you to understand? you say i should pay what i spent right? Well if i went over my payments for the past 10 years dont you think i would have paid much more than what i actually had to because of the astronomical interest rates? They know this, and they know most people arent educated as to what interest really is EVEN IF THEY READ THE DAMN TERMS AND CONDITIONS!!! IM so tired of people like you who dont care about anyone else but themselves.....o by the way i have aids but dont feel bad for me because it was my fault and i deserve it....
That's your logic isnt it? I made the mistake so i deserve to contract aids and be sick for the rest of my life? Sorry for the drama but what you have said earlier in this thread is very insulting to many people and my example above just shows how insulting it can get......



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Dude i dont want another credit card.....why cant mastercard lower my rate? They wont for some reason even if my fico is 700+....what you say to that then? And i want to pay off the balance but the interest rate that has been high and increasing for so many years just adds that much more principal. I work in 3rd party loan operations dude so i know how debt works but i can tell you this....corporations have more negotiation power with creditors than any of us do and in a free economy isnt that unethical as well? I missed two payments in my lifetime by less than 30 days and that is about all the negative info you will find in my credit report but it was more than 3 years ago and they still have my rate at 18% even after all the payments i have made twice a month. Forget it dude....you miss my point and the worse part is im not even saying that i dont owe the money...i do owe it but i dont deserve to be taken advantage of by high interest rates. Apply for another card you say? Thats another inquiry on my credit report which means less points doesnt it? Less points means higher interest or a short intro period for the 0% rate that you say exists....so what am i to do? Spend the next 5 years changing credit cards every 2 or three months just so i can pay down the debt? That sounds like fun and a lot of inquiries on your credit report too and you know what that means dont you....
There is no winning dude, they dont want you to pay down principal at all because its the interest that makes money for them. I see 1mm loans for huge companies with 8, 9 10% interest even after they have claimed bankruptcy more than once! So whats the story with that? They file bankruptcy and in a year back up and running with another loan outstanding just like United airlines and General Motors. Somehow that 7 years bad credit history doesnt apply to these large companies becuase ive only been here for 2 years and i have seen this happen several times.
Im not trying to convince you dude but by your logic (pay what you spend) i should do just that and no more right? Or at least not so much more that it breaks my bank at the end of every paycheck....i mean where does it end?



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


You are not entitled to breaks from anyone, and especially not from private businesses. You and businesses already get breaks from the government. And yes, you do get breaks just like the businesses do from the government. You get tax credits, so do they. You get tax deductions, so do they.

People are entitled to whatever their employer wants to pay them. If companies want to pay retired board members, they are entitled to do so. You do not get to order around companies. They have shareholders, and those shareholders are the method to control policies like that. If you are not a shareholder, why do you care if companies pay their retired CEOs? Who cares? I don't. Just saying "BSBSBSBSBS" doesn't change reality - why is it you should get to dictate company policy if you are not a shareholder? Do tell.

I already said I owe money. And I have made sure I owe money at low interest rates. You could do so too, if you wanted. You had the foresight to control that, you did not. Now you pay the penalty. You can still pay it off, if you choose - it may not be fun, but you could. Instead you blame it all on the corporations.

You should PAY MORE than what you spent. This is common knowledge, its called the time value of money. When you spent someone else's dollar that dollar is now worth less than it was when you spent it. Since you decided to spend other peoples money, you should have to pay for the luxury. The company must keep up with your debt and monitor what you owe, that costs money. Finally, banks are not charities, and they are in this for a profit. After they charge you for the time value of money and their costs, why is it they should not charge you for the luxury of using their money? And since you have a higher chance of defaulting, you get charged more. This make logical sense - you are likely to stop paying and they lose all their money, so they charge you a higher interest rate. You could improve your credit and lower your rates, if you wanted to. It would not be easy and would take time, but you could do it.

That people do not understand interest is not anyones fault except the people who take out the loans. It is not the bank's responsibility to treat you like a child and tell you what you should and should not do. It is your responsibility to be educated about your obligations.

I love how you keep assuming I'm so selfless non-caring person because I believe you are responsible for your own decisions. It is the height of caring that I believe people should have the right to do what they will, including buying things they cannot afford. But no, you would rather you not have to pay for the true costs of your decisions. That makes you completely uncaring about anyone except you. It's all about what you have to pay, what you owe.

I can tell you've got nothing when you start making sweeping generalizations about AIDS and stuff like that. It's so comical I won't even do it the dignity of responding. If you do not understand the concept of personal responsibility and where it does and does not apply, then I cannot help you.

YOU decided to tell us about your personal finances, I did not ask about them. If you don't want people to tell you to be responsible for your own decisions, don't offer up your finances. No one asked for it. I have already said I owe student loans, AND I TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THOSE LOANS. I took out the loans, I used the loans, I understood the terms of the loan document I signed. I am paying interest and I should, because using other peoples money comes with a cost. I decided to pay that cost.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
I missed two payments in my lifetime by less than 30 days and that is about all the negative info you will find in my credit report but it was more than 3 years ago and they still have my rate at 18% even after all the payments i have made twice a month.


Bingo. You showed you could not abide by your loan agreements, and late payments stay on your credit report for 7 years. You will for the next 7 years have to pay for your mistake, and you should.

You show a basic misunderstanding of FICO scoring. Credit inquiries, when there are only a few, have almost no real impact on your score. You just don't get it. Your too busy blaming everyone but yourself for your debt.

You show no understanding of debt to income ratio. A $1 million dollar loan to a company that has billions in assets is nothing. That's the story. Very simple.

And yes, by my logic you should do just that: spend money on what you can afford. That's it. Use the excess to pay off your debt. When the debt is gone, you can then spend money on optional things. You are not entitled to a high standard of living when your using other peoples money to do it - no one is. It ends where it begins - before you buy something, think about if you can pay for it that month. If you cannot, do not buy it. If its a NEED and not a WANT (highly unlikely), first turn to food stamps and charity. If that fails, then use a low rate credit card and immediately do something to change your situation, like getting another job.



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