Originally posted by SKUNK2
The only issues i have is with bible bashing zealots like you. Religion has no place in the modern world. Religion is just used to control and scare weak mided fools like you who are scared of nothing happening when you die.
How come religion was invented a little while after the Sumerian civilisation faded away???

oh, I thought it was invented when God created the first angels. I guess we have different perspectives.

you do know that bible bashing would be someone going against the bible, are you saying my interpretation of the Bible bashes it, or are you getting your words confused?

Hmm, scared of nothing happening when a person dies. Being immortal I don't know how to answer that. I do wonder sometimes if I will be tired of existing, but have not reached that point at all, and expect there to be new great experiences to always keep me occupied. But I really don't worry about it.

Thinking about it, religion removed what fear I had left, faith is the opposite of fear, so by knowing Jesus I also live without fear, I don't know how that fits your ideas, unless you think it is better to live with fear, but that is a dark side thing, and I doubt you would embrace living in fear.

[edit on 5-11-2007 by Redge777]

Originally posted by SKUNK2

Originally posted by Redge777

Originally posted by SKUNK2
You are a 100% bible bashing zealot, stuck in a mind set that has no place in the modern world. You need to sort your head out. People like you in the UK get laughed so hard that you'd see the light and know even the existence of an almighty being is just laughable at the least.

Wow you have some anger issues I think. Is there anything we can do to help, we will pray for you friend, for us that is a form of kindness we offer. Know that when he does reveal himself to you he will show you his love. It really is cool.

God Bless.

The only issues i have is with bible bashing zealots like you. Religion has no place in the modern world. Religion is just used to control and scare weak mided fools like you who are scared of nothing happening when you die.
How come religion was invented a little while after the Sumerian civilisation faded away???

Boy i have met some ignorant people in my time but you beat the lot my friend.
You are so not educated in the ways of the world and what significance God has in peoples lives. You have a chip on your shoulder about something but thats your problem. I'm afraid that you and your opinions of God are very much in the minority.
What a sad case

There Is A Big Difference Beetwen God And Air

Air Has been Scientifically Proven!.

[edit on 5-11-2007 by Drzava]

Originally posted by jedimiller
cheers jon. I know. I'm not trying to explain religion or anything like that. I'm just trying to make it logical for some to understand it. but I do feel that experiences make things appear to be more real. but anyways, thanks for believing in me. And in GOD. Because he's real and probably reading this as we speak.

When I look at the state of the world and see wars, violence, suffering, people being beheaded, children being raped, elderly people being left to die on street corners, humans inflicting unbelievable torture on anything lesser than themselves and the overwhelming indifference to it all by the majority of people who live their selfish lives, I'll think of god reading this thread, and understand what he sees as important to him.

Originally posted by SKUNK2

I also forgot my imaginary friend is real as well because i said he is.

Ahha !

My Imaginary friend has just believed your imaginary friend out of existence !

I like this game !!

Lets get one thing clear, there is no logic or reason behind god. If everything needed to be logical to be true, I would become an athiest. I know that god cannot be logically possible. I also know that logic is not infallible, and cannot be my sole reason of proof. I know that logically god is not possible, but I know that logic is not nearly enough to make any argument on. What you are left with is faith.

It doesn't matter if you have the most logically sound argument ever made, because logic alone isn't enough to prove anything. Now given the fact there is no logical argument that can be found to prove a god, I lean toward there being no god. That does not mean I believe there is no god, just that logic cannot prove one. Being human, like every other person, means our logic is able to fail us though.


As for god being real like air, does that mean I can choke on him if I swallow him by accident? And also what elements make up god?

Your argument that thinking it is real will make it real is not a logical argument. A logically sound argument is, "you believe in santa when you are a kid. You believe there is a guy running around giving everyone presents, the whole 9 yards. When you find out he is not real, it is because you find out there is no guy, in the reality we live in. Your reality only matters to you. The world we live in shows that there is no santa."

It does not matter whether you talk about Santa or think about him, he still does not exist. The legend of santa may exist. The story of santa exists. Santa as a physical being does not exist.

Alas, Air is NOT invisible.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
I would say this is a nice try, but it isn't.

You are comparing a physical feeling to a emotional feeling. You can capture air, you can physically touch it and you can examine it and break it down to its basic elements. You can not do any of these things with God, the only proof you have that he exists is your belief or faith in him. It's not logical or critical thinking at all.

[edit on 5-11-2007 by LDragonFire]

couldnt have said it any better myself
thank you for saving me the effort

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsSmarter
I have question.

What exactly does feeling good have to do with god?

Well Santa Claus does not love you unconditionally, did not create you, and did not send his son to die for you, so it isn't the same thing.

Got anything to back that up? Of course other than, I FEEL HAPPYNESS SO IT'S GOD.

Also, what if I beleived that Santa Claus loved me unconditionally, created me, and sent his son to die for me? Does that make Santa- Claus real?

I would just like to say that a normal human "feel good experience" is nothing like a Godly experience. they are so different that it is obvious when you have one of those. This is why it is so hard to explain things to none believers. God makes sure there is a difference so that we know it is him who is ministering to us and not a result of our own normal feelings.
Belief in santa claus is not really any comparison with God. How many people have died for Christ and how many have died for santa claus?
People believe in santa and the tooth fairy for only a short period in their lives because they are make believe, but people believe in God all their lives. That alone tells us something is different about God.
None of us are going to change each others minds but at least we can put things in perspective on how we think.
John.

Originally posted by jon1
I would just like to say that a normal human "feel good experience" is nothing like a Godly experience. they are so different that it is obvious when you have one of those. This is why it is so hard to explain things to none believers. God makes sure there is a difference so that we know it is him who is ministering to us and not a result of our own normal feelings.

This is stuff that annoys me. People think they are special and know for a fact that people who don't believe couldn't possibly feel what they feel. I have felt something so beyond "feel good experience" that it changed the way I looked at the world. It had nothing to do with god, or god acting upon me.

I think it is naive to say that because they don't believe in god that they must not have ever had such a feeling before. I know the difference of something that feels good at the moment, and a bliss. A feeling that you cannot even describe it is so strong. I call it being content. I dont believe many people in this world truely know how it feels to be content, and I believe it is an overwhelming feeling.

Belief in santa claus is not really any comparison with God. How many people have died for Christ and how many have died for santa claus?

Irrelevent. A belief is a belief. The only difference is people believe in god a great deal stronger than they believe in santa. That is it.

People believe in santa and the tooth fairy for only a short period in their lives because they are make believe, but people believe in God all their lives. That alone tells us something is different about God.

That is a horrible sense of logic. Time does not determine whether or not it is real or true. If some one believes minorities are inferior to white people are their lives, that does not mean there is something to it. It doesn't make it anymore credible.

People have died on that belief that whites are superior. Maybe not as many as religious wars have cause, but a great deal of people died over this idea that their is a superior race. The fact they believe it their whole lives or 5 minutes makes no difference to its credibility.

None of us are going to change each others minds but at least we can put things in perspective on how we think.
John.

agreed. We must point out the ill logic on both sides of the argument.

It comes down to faith, and mostly life experiences. If you were brought up by strict God fearing parents, more than likely you will believe in god. Or due to other life experiences, this may cause you to rebel and not believe in god.

Me, I believe there is a force; as George Carlin said, call it "The Big Electron".

Seriously, I do believe we are all connected, and all come from the same matter, if you go far back enough in time, we all come from the same singularity, even aliens, I'm talking everything in the known universe.

Now this type of thinking would be blasphemy in most churches, I think. I believe most Western religions (havent beem to church in a while), leave no room for any other intelligent beings except for Humans. Adam and Eve, and that was it.

To me that is just too strict, I've read the bible, and the basic premise of a loving god, who would allow such atrocities occur everyday here on earth it just doesn't sit well with me.

However, a force, where for all that is positive in the universe, there is the "exact" amount of negative. That's just how it is. I think a belief sort of like that would suit me better. But I really haven't given it much thought.

Lots of times I envy those who have such a strong faith in a God, they can use this faith to get through some of the most troubling times in life, where I would under the same circumstances, end up in the Nut Ward. So I do not look down on your ideals, or your faith, I just don't have it.

I have tried too. But I just can't get around the many contradictions in the bible and in most religions (which isn't many) that I have looked into.

To the OP: Good luck to you, and I hope your beliefs help you, and work out for you, I believe they will. Sincerely.

But trying to change anyones religious beliefs, or prove thiers wrong, or prove yours right, is NEVER a good thing imo. When it comes to religious, or non-religious beliefs. It's best to let each person find their own path. That's just my opinion.

Possibly the worst way to prove something I've read to date.
"WATER CAN BE BOTH HOT AND COLD, THEREFORE, GOD EXISTS AND MAKES ME HAPPY!"
Just because you feel "Warm" and "Happy" on your way to church, doesn't mean God exists. Feeling the air against you, and happening to feel "Warm/cuddly" or whatever on your way to church are two entirely different things.
You didn't use "Logic" at all.
You could feel "Warm" going to church for a variety of reasons- And one example of God's "existance" for you- Could be something entirely different for someone else.
There is no uniform, universal sign for God, is there? Since everyone has their own beliefs, have their own "experiences" if you want to call them that.
If you touch a hot pan from the oven, I will feel the same pain you felt when I touch the pan. When you feel the wind against you as you walk to church, if I were walking with you- I too would feel the breeze.
As for the "Warm" feeling- That's yours, for whatever reason.
It doesn't prove the existance of God, by any means or stretch, or come close to giving evidence, proof, or an example of a divine creator.
Sorry.

[edit on 5-11-2007 by Dewm0nster]

If we are talking about a Christian view of 'God', well in the old testament this God comes across as a brutal and savage entity who killed a lot of people by drowning. I find it quite repugnant to believe in such a thing.

I will say this though, we humans limited by our senses and technology have a great deal of life that we have yet to discover and fully understand.

[edit on 5-11-2007 by freeradical]

I don't even know anyone who can come up with a definition of God good enough to use in a logical debate. In order set up a logical argument, you at least need to be able to define your terms. Cute little analogies just don't cut it.

Every definition of God I've ever read contains internal inconsistencies and paradoxes that make it essentially useless for rational debate and discussion.

Originally posted by jedimiller
Beliefs are real. based on something solid or not. and that translates to reality.

So, are you saying that the simple BELIEF in something makes it REAL? And you are using this in a conversation in which you attempted to prove that God exists? Based on your very own statement, I could say that I believe in Zeus, and that alone makes him real. Or better yet, I believe that God DOES NOT exist. Does my belief make it true? No.

And the wind argument has been tried and failed thousands of times. I can physically prove that the wind exists. Ask the people who live in New Orleans. You can't physically prove that God exists. Claiming that you, of all people, are able to prove the existence of God, even though millions have tried before you, including priests, is rather arrogant on your part.

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsSmarter
Got anything to back that up? Of course other than, I FEEL HAPPYNESS SO IT'S GOD.

Yes I have complete proof of Gods existence, but you would have to believe my stories to see that.

Also, what if I believed that Santa Claus loved me unconditionally, created me, and sent his son to die for me? Does that make Santa- Claus real?
Prove that Santa Claus isn't real. After all, I believe in him.

I can't say if he is real, that's proving a negative, but Santa didn't do the things I mentioned. See my point.

To prove that water boils at 100c I must accept my temperature measurement device. And I must accept that the 40 times I do the experiment, it is not some other factor causing the water to simply evaporation. Now we all accept these postulations because they are so common and repeatable, so nobody argues this. And we have all seen it.

So for you to believe in God, you have to believe a spirit world exist, and in the form I have experienced, note that where you have not seen this pot boil, I have over 40 times so I can make the statement with confidence. Then it continues on in a similar fashion as I learned of how the spirit world works, as other elements of that world become clear through experience.

Now someone could say my experiences were delusions, or misinterpretations, just like someone could say water boiling was coincidence, or a person hallucinating seeing bubbles and steam in some self created mystic trance.

Do you see my point here. Your arguement against god existing is becuase you have never seen water boil. So you say, that can't happen, those who have, explain it differently.

By the way, I am not trying to convince you. You get free will to decide what you believe, I am not worried about it, I am only trying to illuminate my point of view.

What is it about religious people creating one of the leading causes of war in the world killing millions of people in the name of god? What's with the sexism and so on that religion causes. Geee, God must be the 'light', bringer of SUCH happyness. I LOVE god, I LOVE his teachings.

Most wars are class wars 'have nots' versus 'haves'. Although many times people use religion to motivate, but it is the hopelessness that drives people to the group offering the war footing. And I believe religion to decieve is not of God. The corporate media wont tell you that wars are really people fighting over getting more things, greed and selfishness, something that is not part of God.

Spanish American war, taking of territory.
French Indian wars, expansion of territory
Many Civil wars around the world, people taking power away from others.
US Civil war, method of governing, no religion
WW1 Germans desire to expand colonies and create its own empire
WW2 no religion there either
Vietnam, form of economic system that threatened the status quo of the rich maintaining power in capitalism
Iraq Oil.

There is one more reason religion gets infused in war, since most are have nots retaking things from the haves, people who have a religious view of equality and moderation, fairness and justice, often start to disagree with the haves. Note that they fall from the teachings of almost every religion when they turn to violence.

[edit on 5-11-2007 by Redge777]

so if the wind blows on me, and it is real, then if god blows on me then he is real