A contradiction in the bible

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Who knows?
I can see how the old testament mentions of the "Lucifer" person could be only a reference to Phoenician myth about lesser gods who represent stars, but let's say, for the sake of argument, that he is a former covering cherub.
And let's say the other cherub was the person who we call, today, Jesus.
They would both be laying claim to the same thing.
Being the morning star.
Lucifer was not content to be a third tier god and wanted to be at least a second tier god.
Lucifer was given morning star status as a punishment, to be the lowest star.
Jesus on the other hand is the bright star who heralds the dawn, and is happy to do so and becomes the instrument of our inlightenment.
So, they are not after the same thing, and arrive at their final status for different reasons.

[edit on 7-4-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by miriam0566
water is not living, and it is used to baptized. suddenly the bible is saying that jesus will be baptized with a person?

Indeed. Jesus was learning even there. The Spirit of God is a highly personal being and that being showed itself like a dove (pigeon if you like). The bible says that the Holy Ghost went into a dove and materialised itself uppon Jesus as he rose from the water when John the Baptist baptised him.

Added: The Holy Ghost took over the baptising cermony so to speak. A happy memory, not much more, but it must have been a happy moment. Loads of dopamine...

[edit on 7/4/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

your simply ignoring what im saying. the bible and the language it is using is saying the holy ghost is a thing.

the holy ghost didnt go INTO a dove. it came down LIKE a dove. (john 1:33)

its like your reading the scripture and just adding whatever you want to it.

to be baptised WITH holy spirit (instead of water).

i can see that and english isnt even my first language

In Norway we have a saying, let me see if I can refrace it into English...

Don't see the forest for only trees. Meaning that you must get the bigger picture, see the forest, not just the trees. Don't know if that makes any sense.

Ghosts and spirits are persons. They always were and they always will be.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Spirit
ruach (roo'-akh) in hebrew
πνευμα
pneuma pnyoo'-mah: in greek

there are other words used for spirit, but these 2 are the words you see when you see ¨holy spirit¨

both literally mean breath or wind (inanimate objects)

do i have evidence? of course i do (all examples below have ruach (if hebrew scripture) and pnuema (if greek)) im showing you other scriptures where these words are to conclusively show you what the word means.

gen 6:[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

gen 7:[15] And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

josh 2:[11] And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

judges 8:[3] God hath delivered into your hands the princes of Midian, Oreb and Zeeb: and what was I able to do in comparison of you? Then their anger was abated toward him, when he had said that. (also translated, their spirit was calmed)

2 chron 9:[4] And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel; his cupbearers also, and their apparel; and his ascent by which he went up into the house of the LORD; there was no more spirit in her. (also translated, she was breathless)

ps 31:[5] Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

lam 4:[20] The breath of our nostrils, the anointed of the LORD, was taken in their pits, of whom we said, Under his shadow we shall live among the heathen.

greek scriptures.

luke 23:[46] And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

jas 2:[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

in these example (and i havent even cited all the examples), we are talking about ¨breath¨

so according to your reasoning, you put holy in front of the word and now its a person?

the only ¨proof¨ you were able to supply were a few scriptures that personified it, and i was able to show you plenty of scriptures that personified other things we KNOW aren´t alive.

fact is, the evidence points to the holy spirit not being a person but a thing. there are plenty of scriptures that show jesus praying to god, god talking to jesus. jesus being refered to as the ¨firstborn of creation¨. evidence points to jesus and go being separate people.

and we having even BEGUN to look at the history of the trinity doctrine.

i repeat. the trinity is not supported by the bible.





[edit on 8-4-2008 by miriam0566]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

Ghosts and spirits are persons. They always were and they always will be.

Is this your personal experience? You are obviously bright, but can you not be blinded by the trees? Perception is everything when talking in the abstract. We can allow ourselves to become blind in the process of thinking that we have all the answers, that we miss a crucial reasoning point.

Will you allow that perhaps I have had a different experience with spirits & ghosts? Are we allowed to use our frame of reference? I have had many experiences with the dark side as well as the light. And my experiences tell me that your perception needs a little more thought or life experience.

This leaves it more open for intelligent discourse and more fun!

"Great people are usually encouragers because they want to help others find their own innate greatness"
-Alexandra Stoddard

Originally posted by miriam0566
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

Spirit
ruach (roo'-akh) in hebrew
πνευμα
pneuma pnyoo'-mah: in greek

there are other words used for spirit, but these 2 are the words you see when you see ¨holy spirit¨

both literally mean breath or wind (inanimate objects)

The words for spirit also means breath, what animates. God blew air through Adam's nostrils and Adam became an animate soul.

Spirits are non physical personalities that can posess physical beings and take over it's personality. For instance. How can a thing, an inanimate object, speak, have knowledge and be afraid?

Mark 5:9 Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" (talking to a spirit) "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many."

And the Spirit knows skills and knowledge:

Exodus 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts--(...)

And when Saul summones the spirit of Samuel:

1 Samuel 28:8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name." (She brings up Samuel's ghost, he even has cloathes on).

2 Samuel 23:2 "The Spirit of the Lord spoke through me; his word was on my tongue." (again the Spirit of the Lord speaks).

I could continue to do this throughout the Bible, but you would still just see trees, words, and not a story or a forest.



[edit on 9/4/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

Mark 5:9 doesn´t say spirit so we cant see the original word used

Exodus 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God,

hebrew word for spirit here is ruach or breath

1 Samuel 28:8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name." (She brings up Samuel's ghost, he even has cloathes on).

spirit here uses the word ¨owb¨ which could mean a mumble, necromancer (ventriliquist) or familiar spirit

2 Samuel 23:2 "The Spirit of the Lord spoke through me; his word was on my tongue." (again the Spirit of the Lord speaks).

again spirit of the lord is translated ruach or breath

so basically the one scripture you could bring up that wasn´t directly referencing the spirit of god uses a different word. surprise surprise.

another example of pnuema

luke 4:[33] And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,

¨breath¨ of an unclean devil

matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

jesus gave up HIS ghost (which translates from pnuema). so if pnuema is a person, then that means jesus and his spirit are 2 separate entities?

i doesnt make sense

the context from which the holy spirit is talked about says it is a thing. i dont know what you are talking about with trees and forests.

the question is, why claim to live by the bible, then hold on to a belief that´s not supported by the bible

Just chose to ignore you. Language and the concepts and nature of spirits are things you obviously can't comprehend. No use in replying to this, you will be like a cast out spirit in my world.

1 Kings 22:19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 "'By what means?' the Lord asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the Lord. 'Go and do it.' 23 "So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you."

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Just chose to ignore you. Language and the concepts and nature of spirits are things you obviously can't comprehend. No use in replying to this, you will be like a cast out spirit in my world.

1 Kings 22:19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 "'By what means?' the Lord asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the Lord. 'Go and do it.' 23 "So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you."

lol, the scripture you used isn´t even refering to holy spirit.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Just chose to ignore you. Language and the concepts and nature of spirits are things you obviously can't comprehend. No use in replying to this, you will be like a cast out spirit in my world.

1 Kings 22:19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?' "One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, 'I will entice him.' 22 "'By what means?' the Lord asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the Lord. 'Go and do it.' 23 "So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you."

lol, the scripture you used isn´t even refering to holy spirit.

That depends how you translate the word Ruach. The official Norwegian Bible translates Ruach into the Holy Spirit here. Some might say a more correct translation of the above to be

1 Kings 22:21 Finally, the Holy Spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, 'I will entice him.'

Anyway you put it pneuma/ruach is never mentioned as a depersonalised force in the Bible. It always refers to a personal being. There are many kinds of spirits from the Holy Ghost to evil spirits and demons. They all belong to the same kind of beings and are highly personified, somewhere in the bible they are even given names. So Miriam, you are wrong when you say spirits aren't persons, they are. Trinity teaching is false doctrine discribing God as three persons. Jesus calls the Holy Spirit a man fGs!

[edit on 29/4/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Regarding the words commonly translated as "Spirit",:

The Greek pneu′ma (spirit) comes from pne′o, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ru′ach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ru′ach and pneu′ma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.)

They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.)

All these meanings have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

Another Hebrew word, nesha·mah′ (Ge 2:7), also means “breath,” but it is more limited in range of meaning than ru′ach. The Greek pno·e′ seems to have a similar limited sense (Ac 17:25) and was used by the Septuagint translators to render nesha·mah′

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by agoodshot

 

you can't explain the doctrine correctly, it's nonsensical in nature

1=1
3=1
1=3

that doesn't make sense!
especially since characters 2 and 3 only appeared about 2/3rds of the way into the story..

Perhaps this explanation will make more sense to you. Imagine you live in a 2D world. In other words, you are on a flat sheet of paper. Now, along comes a die (as in singular of dice), and touches flat on that sheet of paper. You would see a square. Now, it touches down one edge. You see a line. Now, it touches on one of the points. You see a point. Which is correct, the square, the line, or the point? They all are, you are just seeing different aspects of the same thing.

Example: Father=square, Son=line, Holy Spirit=point. In our little make-believe 2D world, that's the only way we can explain it, because we don't have the ability to understand what a cube really is.

(I forget who posited this metaphor, possibly C.S. Lewis.)

At points, CLEARLY God and Jesus are expressed as two different beings. Yet, CLEARLY they are expressed as a single entity. The reason that the Sanhedrin put him to death was because he claimed to be God. When they asked him if he was the messiah, he said "I AM". That was a play on words, and was the same thing Moses was told to say by God when the ancient Hebrews asked him (Moses) who sent him.

The only way the Trinity can be right is if none of the three persons within it is God, but that God is infact the Force existing between the three. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate entities in four dimentions. A cube is one entity, a geometric shape in three dimentions. Comparing the trinity with a cube is like comparing three horses pulling a wagon with a football.

reply to post by sir_chancealot


That analogy still does not explain who ressurected Jesus fom the dead.
If he was really & truly dead, he would need someone else to perform this miracle. Ecl 9:5 says that the dead are conscience of nothing,

If the Jesus peolpe saw on earth was just a manifestation of the same Godhead, why would he need to pray to himself and state that he could do nothing of his own initive?

Why was there knowlege or information that Jesus did not possess but only the Father?.

And why is Jesus still described in a subseriant position to the Father even after he was ressurected and back in the heavens?

The trinity is a concept borrowed from Pagan beliefs, plain & simple.

[edit on 29-4-2008 by Sparky63]

[edit on 29-4-2008 by Sparky63]

i posted an exhaustive thread on the trinity here (which no-one commented on curiously)

www.belowtopsecret.com...'

the trinity is a classic example of trying to make something fit into the bible, even by forceful means....

[edit on 29-4-2008 by miriam0566]

reply to post by LDragonFire

yes i agree we worshp God and him only even though i have a hard time understanding it the trinity is this if its to be scriptural first the father the son and the holy spirit are three totally seperate beings but remember they are all god how can this be God is not limited to one soul one spirit and one spirit body he can have many but they are all in essence God and jesus was gods sonlike this all the angels were the sons of god adam was a son of god they are sons of god through direct creation jesus was the only begotten son because he had the DNA of God as well as being a direct creation of him compare this to an earthly father son analogy and this will make even more sense so even though jesus was the son of god he was also God but not on earth because he went through the "Kenosis of Christ" look that up on the internet

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
that would make God more of a council then a one supreme being and it would also make our religion a polytheistic one

reply to post by Sparky63
While Jesus was on earth he was lower than the Father because he went through the "Kenosis" or emptying of his divinity that- includes divine knoweledge. and you must under stand that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are more like photo copies of the real thing that is why He was at a lower position in heaven b/c even though He is seperate in body and in spirit and in soul it is just copy of the real thing.the thing that makes Him God is the format of the spirit. and then when He died you cant use ecl.9:5 that is referring to the dead bodies not the soul and spirit. when He died the power that ressurected him was the same power that did all the miricles during his lifetime the Holy Spirit we can use the same powers jesus did like he said and more and we arent divine that proves he used the Holy Spirit he Holy Spirit is what raised him from the dead



[edit on 19-6-2008 by iesus_freak]

Here is a simple answer to your blasphemy

Psalm 110
Of David. A psalm.
1 The Lord says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

Matthew 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

42"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.

43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,

44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet." '

45 If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"

46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.



Maybe you will be as smart as the Pharisees,"No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions."

Then again, maybe not.

reply to post by iesus_freak


The apostle John began the Book of Revelation with these Words,

*** re chap. 3 p. 15 par. 2 Things That Must Shortly Take Place ***

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place.” (Revelation 1:1a)

So it was the resurrected Jesus Christ who received this weighty message from God. Far from being part of a mystic Trinity, Jesus is here shown to be subject to his Father. In the same way, the “slaves” making up the Christian congregation are subject to Jesus Christ, so that they ‘keep following him wherever he goes.

Jesus was no longer " In the flesh" but rather restored to his Position in the heavens. He is still subject to the Father. not equal to him.

The Father’s superiority over the Son, as well as the fact that the Father is a separate person, is highlighted also in the prayers of Jesus, such as the one before his execution:

“Father, if you wish, remove this cup [that is, an ignominious death] from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42)

If God and Jesus are “one in essence,” as the Trinity doctrine says, how could Jesus’ will, or wish, seem different from that of his Father?

Furthermore, if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not? Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”—Mark 13:32.

The worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was also common before Jesus was born. “From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity,” observed historian Will Durant. In the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics, James Hastings wrote: “In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahmā, Siva, and Viṣṇu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus.”

So there are many gods. Did early Christians acknowledge this? And did they view Jesus as Almighty God? The Simple answer is NO.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) discusses the Trinity at length and admits: “The Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Sparky63]

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Sparky63]