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A contradiction in the bible

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posted on Jul, 21 2008 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
1. You shall have no other gods before Me

The first commandment is simple in its wording; there can be no other explanations for what is said or what it means. Yet modern Christianity does not practice monotheism in a pure form. Christianity teaches and preaches the Trinity The belief that the Father[1] the Son[2] and the Holy Spirit[3] are of one God.

This too me is incorrect and a direct violation of the first commandment.



God is a God of duality. Genesis 1:26-27 indicates this.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.


We also see God's duality implied in Romans 1:20.

Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.

Since God made male and female in his image, we must assume God has
the same male and female duality within himself. This duality exists throughout his creation.

God's duality also exists in that we have a physical body and a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Adam and Eve were made to be the "temple of God." But they became unholy and so God couldn't dwell with them. In a sense this is the key "trinity" that God desires to see formed. It was his original plan and remains his original plan.

Jesus was the second Adam, but with divine qualities. When he died, there was a vacuum left as he did not marry. To balance this lopsidedness, God's feminine Spirit stood in for Jesus' wife. This we call the Holy Spirit.

God's original design for the universe cannot to formed until a holy "trinity" unit is formed and multiplied. Adam and Eve did not form this unit. Neither did Jesus form this unit. This is why Revelation indicates that when Jesus returns (with another name Rev. 3:12) he will marry.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. ~Rev. 19:7

This is the true trinity. It does not mean God is three gods. It just means God is from that point onward able to dwell within people who engraft themselves to this complete "trinity" and form other holy trinities of husband and wife.

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the CHILDREN OF GOD. ~Rom. 8:19-21



[edit on 7/21/2008 by Matrix1111]




posted on Jul, 21 2008 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by Matrix1111
 


I was reading your post and trying to figure out what you are saying.
Superficially, these verses you quote in your post seem like they may or may not support your argument.
After studying this for a while, I decided that, unless you apply a certain meaning to these words, the verses really do not seem to be talking about the same thing you are talking about.
I think you are using a certain type of reasoning that comes from a tradition that is slightly difficult for the casual reader to understand.
I found something that puts it into a more simple format, but still with some unfamiliar terminology.
I copied a complete post from a gnostic forum.

I was wondering if Sophians have ever made use of the traditional Christian Trinity.

It would seem to me that the Father could represent Ein Sof, the Son would naturally be Adam Kadmon and the Holy Spirit would be God's essence or radiant breath flowing from Ein Sof in and through the Son into the world.

The person of the Son would then encompass all of the radiant display of the world. He would be the beginning of the Father’s self revelation, the object of the emanation of his essence or Spirit and the place from where that essence first departs.

The Trinity then, can be seen as not fully actualized, but that we all, through Yeshua Messiag, participate in the actualization and awakening of the Son. We have a direct role in the inner life of God.

At least this is how I look at the Trinity when participating in more traditional church events.

Are there Sophian teachings on the Trinity?

www.sophian.org...
So, I think your post has a gnostic influince, as reflected in my quote.
I find this same idea of believers making a certain type of completeness of God.
I can not tell you if this is neccesarily wrong, exactly.
You guys are the ones who believe you can understand God, hence the name, gnostic.
I am definitely not Orthodox in my theology so if I call it heresy, I have no ground to stand on, being a heretic myself.
I notice you are into the whole duality thing and express your use of it in three ways.
I wonder if you think people can be dual, as in being able to be "the Spouter of Lies" in some cases, and at other times someone you would quote three times in one post?


[edit on 21-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111
 


I notice you are into the whole duality thing and express your use of it in three ways.
I wonder if you think people can be dual, as in being able to be "the Spouter of Lies" in some cases, and at other times someone you would quote three times in one post?



We are created in God's image, male/female, physical/spiritual, mind/body. The contradictions that exist within us (wretched man that I am) is the result of the Fall, according to scripture. We serve two masters, hence have good and evil mixed together. Paul (The Sprouter of Lies) admitted to being split between serving the law of his body and serving the law of Spirit. This means he was not a perfect instrument for God's word. The result is that contradiction exists between what Jesus and the apostles taught and what Paul taught. But that doesn't mean that some of what he said wasn't accurate to a degree.

Discern the spirits. Don't get stuck on the letter of the law. As Paul said in 1 Corinthian 13, all prophecy/knowledge is imperfect until the perfect returns. We can debate who's interpretation of the Bible is correct until the cows come home, but it won't change the imperfection of the whole source that we quote from. But we cope and gain what wisdom we can, hopefully. It's when we take the Bible literally and claim we know absolute truth that we run into trouble.

Keep an open mind. A closed mind can not see.


[edit on 7/22/2008 by Matrix1111]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by Matrix1111
 



We are created in God's image, male/female, physical/spiritual, mind/body. The contradictions that exist within us (wretched man that I am) is the result of the Fall, according to scripture. We serve two masters, hence have good and evil mixed together.

OK, so what you are saying is that we already have these three dualities, but with sin, we are given a fourth?
The first three did not cause a contradiction and could exist in a harmonious way.
But, then with the fourth, the first three were thrown into disharmony?
I am not assuming any of this is correct, exactly, but trying to understand what you are saying.
This thread is about "a contradiction in the bible".
Are you claiming that contradictions in the Bible can be cleared up by reading it with an understanding that the Bible speaks in dualistic terms?
Seems like you are saying that scripture is flawed and imperfect.
Personally, I do not find anything more reliable, so I try to get my wisdom from the Bible.
My understanding is that we inherit an evil nature.
God said he brought the flood because the hearts of man are evil, continually.
We know that Noah found favor, mainly because he did choose to follow the letter of the law.
We know he was not perfect or good, exactly, because his sons became evil, themselves.
We have something, in particular, as a result of the works of Jesus, which is the gift of the spirit.
Paul had a spirit, in him, that was willing to obey God but it was in conflict with his human nature which is bent towards doing evil.
I do not see it as two sides of human nature, in conflict with itself.
More like the battle going internal, at a personal level.
This is why Paul says that if he was to preach one thing, it would be Christ and his blood.
We will not win the war in this lifetime but our perfection waits for our resurrection.


[edit on 22-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111
 


This thread is about "a contradiction in the bible".
Are you claiming that contradictions in the Bible can be cleared up by reading it with an understanding that the Bible speaks in dualistic terms?
Seems like you are saying that scripture is flawed and imperfect.


I was trying to show that the Trinity is based on the relationship of God with perfected Adam and Eve. Jesus was the second Adam. His wife would have been the second Eve. This would have been the Trinity necessary for an ideal world (both on earth and spirit world) to be established. Without a wife, the Holy Spirit stood in for this part of the Trinity. It is the Divine Mother aspect of God. It will not have a physical component until the third Adam comes and creates a family with his wife (third Eve).

Evil is not part of the duality created by God. Evil is the absence of Love (God's essence). The contradiction within man is the result of male/female, mind/body, physical/spiritual aspects of man becoming aligned with another master, fallen Lucifer, and becoming twisted into our being created in the image of this fallen archangel. This set in motion a contradiction that permeates throughout human history -- even within the writing of holy scripture.

Contradictions exist within the Bible because imperfect instruments (fallen man) cannot comprehend and transmit truth in its entirety. Each person can only comprehend according to the level of his mental and spiritual development. Jesus knew this and that's why he finally gave up trying to teach his discples. (John 16:12) It's also why Paul admitted that he knows truth in part, not fully. (1 Cor. 13:12)

Jesus said the Spirit of Truth would lead us into the full truth. (John 16:13) Some Christians may believe this took place at the time of the Pentacost. But looking at the fruits of Christian theological debates, councils and whatnot, lots of contradictions still exist. If we can all agree on that fact, then perhaps it's possible for all religious people to pool their spiritual resources and work together for a better understanding. In fact, religious people need to work together with the lastest scientific and academic discoveries. This "I-have-the-truth-and-you-don't" business is what's causing so many world conflicts -- famine, wars -- even nature catastrophies. And it all started with the contradiction within one man and spread outward throughout the generations of time into levels of male/female, mind/body, physical/spiritual...


[edit on 7/22/2008 by Matrix1111]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by Matrix1111
 


I do not find your brand of heresy necessarily any more distasteful than several other heresies.
I think it's a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, but if that is what you think, that's your burden.
I am not in favor of re-instituting the Inquisition because I would be drug into it, probably before you.
There are several atheist threads and I do not waste my time with them.
I have a collection of extra-biblical books and heretical books.
I read them out of an interest in what seemed to be so threatening to an establishment form of religion.
I do not find anything especially useful, except for the Arian heresy.
That has to do with the proper understanding of the Bible.
The other ones seem to prefer just writing their own version of the Bible.
Anyway, this is really incoherent and rambling, but I guess what I want to say is that time is short and the cycle will turn around to where we will find ourselves under the Jack-Boot of the new Fascism.
I do not see your vision of the future having a fulfillment in this present world.


[edit on 22-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Jesus could not transformed the world without a wife or the holy spirit. The future has everything to do with the feminine energy regaining its proper role in the transformation of earth into heaven on earth. Curious that it's said that it was Mary Magdalene that Jesus favored. Out of jealousy for that, the disciples are said to have "written" her out of the picture. Likewise for the Catholic church turning her into a harlot.

The world has been transformed by the Holy Spirit. Greater trasformations are expected at the time of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It's in the bible, therefore you can't dismiss it -- if you believe in it literally as you say you do. So yes, you are rambling and, consequently, rejecting what's prophesied in the bible itself concerning the physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit as Christ's wife.

"Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." ~Rev. 21:9

Mumbo-jumbo? Or spiritual physics?



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by Matrix1111
"Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." ~Rev. 21:9


you do realize that this scripture is very directly refering to spiritual jerusalem and not holy spirit.

spiritual jerusalem is made up of saints including the apostles as the foundation.

its a nice theory you have and all but its simply not supported. saints are refered to as virgins and brides of christ several times. not holy spirit



posted on Jul, 22 2008 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by Matrix1111
 



Mumbo-jumbo? Or spiritual physics?

Have you ever read any of the Theosophical stuff, by Blavatsky?
That is a good example of what I think is mumbo-Jumbo.
I should have said, "It sounds strikingly similar to Mumbo-Jumbo."
What I am referring to is something you can see in the Gnostic forum post, I quoted above.
Like, all the cool names for all the spirits and entities.
Anyway, the male/female dualism idea is not a Christian or Jewish concept.
More like Ashtoreth and Molech, who Solomon's wives were worshiping.
I think the Marriage is a future event including the saints who go up to heaven, not something that happens on the un-restored planet.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Matrix1111
"Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." ~Rev. 21:9


spiritual jerusalem is made up of saints including the apostles as the foundation.


That's an assumption. There isn't a verse that directly says that. You have to deduce that assuming the marriage of Lamb is a metaphor. I think my view is just as valid as yours, especially if you consider the whole premise of the bible starting with Genesis and what happened in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were blocked from becoming like God:

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. ~Genesis 3:22-24

We were created in God's image, male and female. We were designed to become like God after maturing on earth for a period of time. (21 years) But Adam and Eve prematurely (at 16 years of age) attempted to take from the "tree of life." So they were kicked out of Eden and blocked from having access to this "tree of life."

In Revelation 22:14 it says "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates." Who is meant to have access to the tree of life and become like God? Male and female. (We were created in God's image, male and female.) This is the main theme of the bible. The Alpha and Omega.

The mission of the bible is not complete until "Adam and Eve" have cleansed themselves of sin and are allowed to freely take from the "Tree of Life" and become like God. Jesus came in the role of Adam. (1 Cor 15:45) His wife would have been the second Eve. Together they would have become the starting point of a pure, sinless lineage and open the way for the return of the Garden of Eden. Because this didn't happen with Jesus, he must come again -- but with a new name. (Rev. 3:12)

This sequence of events is logical and progresses based on the original plan God layed out in the Garden of Eden. The Holy Spirit was just a stand in until this "atomic equation" of Adam and Eve could be set up. (Adam = Atom) Once that bond is established then other "molecules of Adam and Eve" would be produced or ingrafted.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111
 



Mumbo-jumbo? Or spiritual physics?

Have you ever read any of the Theosophical stuff, by Blavatsky?
That is a good example of what I think is mumbo-Jumbo.
I should have said, "It sounds strikingly similar to Mumbo-Jumbo."
What I am referring to is something you can see in the Gnostic forum post, I quoted above.
Like, all the cool names for all the spirits and entities.
Anyway, the male/female dualism idea is not a Christian or Jewish concept.


I've tried to read her stuff long ago. It never meshed with me. On the other hand, her Secret Doctrine inspired Hitler lots. It was his constant bedside reading material. It inspired him to start looking for secrets of the universe in Tibet. It opened him to making a pact with Lucifer, who he viewed as an ascended master, and lead Hitler to believe he was the messiah of the German people. But that was just him, a twisted soul. Can't really say it was a bad reflection on Blavatsky or that it was mumbo-jumbo. I prefer to keep an open mind and respect spiritual paths of others.

You're right, the male/female dualism idea is not a Christian or Jewish concept. It's Taoism. Do you think Taoism is mumbo-jumbo?



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 12:13 PM
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The "bride" is with the angels and a call goes out for the coming-up marriage feast.
Garments are prepared for the participants.
The participants are given their clean garments as they rise from out of their graves and are gathered up by the Angels.
-------------
Mumbo-jumbo, to me, is identifying all sorts of spiritual entities, good and bad, and naming them into some sort of pantheon.


[edit on 23-7-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


And your "mumbo-jumbo" is better than my "mumbo-jumbo?"





posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by matrix1111 I was trying to show that the Trinity is based on the relationship of God with perfected Adam and Eve. Jesus was the second Adam. His wife would have been the second Eve. This would have been the Trinity necessary for an ideal world (both on earth and spirit world) to be established. Without a wife, the Holy Spirit stood in for this part of the Trinity. It is the Divine Mother aspect of God. It will not have a physical component until the third Adam comes and creates a family with his wife (third Eve).



I find some of your beliefs non christian. No were in the bible does it say that the holy spirity is the divine mother aspect of God. I see you trying to put trinity in scripture so you can believe what not true. no where in the bible does it talk of trinity. Tritnity is this God the spirity god jesus god the holy ghost. No where in the bible does it say this. When Jesus was baptised God's spirit the holy ghost came to Jesus. Jesus would not need God's spirit unless he is God. God said that Jesus was His son whom I am will pleased. Jesus said for I came down not from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him whom has sent me. God sent Jesus. Jesus is a off spring of God. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus said my father in heaven is greater than I.

Second The bible is the word of God plain and simple. Its not flawed for God's spirit runs throw the spoken word of God.

three the bible teaches us that we are to worship only 1 God. Jesus worship that God. He talk to that God. And Jesus is God's literal right hand man. Everything is down by Jesus. Jesus is divine for he is more a literal Son to God. Jesus has God blood in him I would think. So Jesus is like the perfect manifestion of God. Everything in Jesus is of God. But that does'nt make Jesus God. God gave all power in heaven to do what he wants. (which is what God wants) Jesus is like a God in all cents. But that does'nt make him God. Jesus is divine and is worthy to be worship why because the bible says so.

Again Jesus is the Son of God. The son cant not be the father if he is the son nor can the father be the son if he is the father. God bless go with his spirit!





[edit on 23-7-2008 by slymattb]



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by Matrix1111
"Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." ~Rev. 21:9

Mumbo-jumbo? Or spiritual physics?


Again Jesus is the God. The scipture you are talking about is talking about the New Jerslum (can spell) That was the bride read the whole scipture.

Jesus was never married, Jesus never had kids. Jesus whole will was for God. I dout Jesus will ever have kids. But if God can so can Jesus



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by slymattb

I find some of your beliefs non christian. Nowhere in the bible does it say that the holy spirit is the divine mother aspect of God.


There are many things Jesus said that didn't jive with Jewish law. In response to those critics he said "new wine can't be put in old wine skins." Also, lots of things that Jesus said didn't get put into the bible.


Second The bible is the word of God plain and simple. Its not flawed for God's spirit runs throw the spoken word of God.


The question is who decided what to put in the canonical bible and what to leave out of it and why?

Flawed? Of course it is. The gospels can't even agree which town Jesus was born in, what his lineage is or who he saw first upon his resurrection. (www.carm.org...)



Three, the bible teaches us that we are to worship only


I didn't say otherwise. And I don't believe Jesus is God either.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by slymattb

Jesus was never married, Jesus never had kids. Jesus whole will was for God. I dout Jesus will ever have kids. But if God can so can Jesus


Where does it say the Jewish Messiah can't marry or have kids?



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by Matrix1111
 



And your "mumbo-jumbo" is better than my "mumbo-jumbo?"

Because I can find what I need to know, from the Bible.
I do not have special communication with spirit guides to inform me on the spiritual realm.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Matrix1111
 



And your "mumbo-jumbo" is better than my "mumbo-jumbo?"

Because I can find what I need to know, from the Bible.
I do not have special communication with spirit guides to inform me on the spiritual realm.


You mean your spirit guides "died" after they wrote the bible and mine are still "living?"

I hope you see the humor in this.




posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by Matrix1111
 



You mean your spirit guides "died" after they wrote the bible and mine are still "living?"

It does seem to be a little ironic, since you state it that way.
I just am suspicious of what looks like works of science fiction.
There is plenty of that stuff out there and you would have problems if you tried to believe it all.
I have been listening to late night talk radio for a lot of years and I have heard it all.
Of course it comes out as contradictory, taken all together.
Maybe some people's spirit guides are better than others.



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