A contradiction in the bible

Originally posted by miriam0566
the bible says they are spirit creatures. would you like me to start quoting scriptures?

interesting stuff on the mystics though

A spirit is the same as a ghost. Angels aren't ghosts. Angels are flesh and blood like you and me, only we have been created from different elements. Man was made from clay or dust, angels were made from fire. Dust can quench fire, and fire strengthens dust by turning it into ceramics or rock. Remember that it is Man who shall judge the angels, not the other way around. We return to dust, they return to fire uppon death.

Originally posted by drevill
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Hello

I see you are a J.W? (not insult meant with the J.W there, just easier for me)

lol, no im not. and no im not insulted, i respect then alot because they actually use the bible.

im not affiliated with any group. ive pretty much accepted that im beyond redemtion lol

"col 1:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

okay - first born personally i think you argue against your own point a little. Ok if we back up a little and read the whole chapter we read that Paul is giving and asking others to give thanks to the father for the son, The son (God as a man) born on earth as a man. He says before all creation, as God is outside of time as we understand it and not a linear time frame as we are. He created everything as he is and was God.

but in your arguement, you are assuming that jesus IS god when the scripture bluntly says he is not. he was the firstborn of creation. if jesus was god, then he can´t possibly be the firstborn of creation.

rev 3:14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

again, beginning of creation

Gods creation included the salvation plan, he created the situation of being born onto earth,

again, that assumes that god and christ are one, which the scripture clearly isn´t saying.

1 cor 8:[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

ONE god, OF whom are all things.
ONE jesus... BY whom are all things. 0

I agree...

One God

One Lord Jesus Christ who was the one God in the flesh

but you´re not providing a counter arguement, i emphasised the OF and BY on purpose. the scripture clearly shows 2 separate people doing 2 separate things. your statement amounts to ¨no it doesn´t¨

picture alittle more clearer?

No need for that was there?

i didnt mean that in a rude way lol im sorry.

also if you research john 1, you´ll find alot of translation render it as ¨and the word was a god¨

Please! i wouldn't need to try hard to know that the J.W's have doctored the translation of the texts

i studied for a time with the jw´s and i used my king james during the study, i saw little difference except for modern language and thier bible says jehovah alot more. if you have examples to enliten me...

Also ill bring to your attention 1 Corinthians 8:4

.. that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

God is not the author of confusion, nor will he tollorate any other god.

Therefore the WORD cannot have been A (plural) god indicating more than one. The word is God as it says in the KJV.

If you wish, you could look up a Pe#ta Bible AND/OR THE Italic, the Old Latin Vulgate and the Waldensian versions from the second century that agree with the KJV and not, unfortunately with the J.W's bible that claim to us the same texts as the KJV.

simply put, the context shows different.

verse [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

so we (humankind) saw the word

verse [18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

yet no man has seen god.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by miriam0566
the bible says they are spirit creatures. would you like me to start quoting scriptures?

interesting stuff on the mystics though

A spirit is the same as a ghost. Angels aren't ghosts. Angels are flesh and blood like you and me, only we have been created from different elements. Man was made from clay or dust, angels were made from fire. Dust can quench fire, and fire strengthens dust by turning it into ceramics or rock. Remember that it is Man who shall judge the angels, not the other way around. We return to dust, they return to fire uppon death.

im sorry but you make these statements like i should know this stuff already.

may i ask where you arrive at this conclusion?

Originally posted by drevill

if i have ever heard a misquote ....... obviously the holy spirit is not physical. have you ever been filled with Joy.dread,hope,anger,upset,hurt, et al?

never claimed that holy spirit is phyisical. im claiming that it is not a person. the scriptures i quoted where to show that holy spirit was being used as a thing and not a person.

if you can quote any scripture that describes any person as a thing other than holy spirit, then maybe ill believe its poetic lisence. but the fact is, its described as a thing.

rom 5:[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

death is something that happens

[21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

so sin is the queen maybe?

rom 6:[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

the holy ghost, or spirit is not a person.

not sure what death has to do with this, could you explain? sorry

david

im showing examples where a thing (that we know is a thing and not a person) is described as a person.

Originally posted by drevill
.

im happy to discuss anything and anyones opinions. If i can be shown evidence from God's words that i am wrong I'll thank the Lord for it.

all the best

david

but... i have showed you evidence




































[edit on 6-4-2008 by miriam0566]

I have not really arrived to any conclusion; living in a quantum reality means everything can be changed overnight, which it eventually will. In my opinion what we see and feel is an illusion, the universe is to me a projection or a hologram. Flesh is either dust or fire or water, spirits are air or movement/wind/breath. When I press my palms against my eyes I first see light, then it dissolves into a veil of millions of triangles, like pixles. Sometimes I have seen things that doesn't exist, and heared things that aren't there. When I dream I can still feel heat, only it is cold, and I can feel a cut from a sword, also cold. We are quantum beings living in a quantum reality, everything can happen just about any time.

Most of my "knowledge" I have from reading the bible over and over, and through reading popular science and especially general relativity, allthough I am a novice at such. I also have some "knowledge" from visions and telapathic resonance as I call it.

Psalms 104:4 "He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants."

Originally posted by drevill

wife,daughter,mother one person, 3 titles, 3 roles

great illustration. problem with it though. the mother never got up infront of a crowd of people and said ¨behold, my daughter, my bloved¨ to a second person in the crowd who ALSO happened to be her.

Originally posted by miriam0566
never claimed that holy spirit is phyisical. im claiming that it is not a person. the scriptures i quoted where to show that holy spirit was being used as a thing and not a person.

John 14:26 "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

John 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

The Holy Ghost is a person.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by miriam0566
never claimed that holy spirit is phyisical. im claiming that it is not a person. the scriptures i quoted where to show that holy spirit was being used as a thing and not a person.

John 14:26 "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

John 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

The Holy Ghost is a person.

the furfillment of that prophecy -

acts 2 :[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[5] And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
[6] Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
[7] And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
[8] And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
[9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
[10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
[11] Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
[12] And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
[13] Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
[14] But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
[15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

the words that many bibles translate as spirit and ghost are ruach (in Hebrew) and pneuma (in Greek) which literally can be translated as wind or breath.

the holy ghost is not a person which is why it can be portioned, poured, asked for etc etc.

this "breath of god" is what helped them propheci and speak in tongues.

Only a person can testify, and that's what the Spirit does. He helps us in prayer and opens our minds so that we can behold the Glory of God. He speaks to our own spirits, and he can touch us. Read what the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament" says about the Holy Ghost:

"never referred to as a depersonalised force".

In other words, he is a person, just like Jesus said, he is the councellor.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Only a person can testify, and that's what the Spirit does. He helps us in prayer and opens our minds so that we can behold the Glory of God. He speaks to our own spirits, and he can touch us. Read what the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament" says about the Holy Ghost:

"never referred to as a depersonalised force".

In other words, he is a person, just like Jesus said, he is the councellor.

evidence can testify.

Originally posted by miriam0566

evidence can testify.

An evidence isn't a testimony. A Testament is an account written or spoken by a person concerning something. Evidence can bring his testimony down.

However in allegorical or symbolic terms you are right. For we do say things like: "The evidence speaks for itself. " However the Holy Ghost is a personal being, never refered to as a depersonalised force.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by miriam0566

evidence can testify.

An evidence isn't a testimony. A Testament is an account written or spoken by a person concerning something. Evidence can bring his testimony down.

However in allegorical or symbolic terms you are right. For we do say things like: "The evidence speaks for itself. " However the Holy Ghost is a personal being, never refered to as a depersonalised force.

but i showed you examples where it is. are you ignore the scriptures i quote?

luked 1:41 ¨filled¨

matt 3:11 he shall baptize you with the holy ghost (instead of the before mentioned water)

acts 10:38 jesus was anointed with the holy ghost (instead of oil like previous isrealite kings were)

acts 10:44 holy ghost is ¨poured out¨

if you want more i can quote more.

the language is staring you in the face. even today we say we ¨receive¨ holy spirit. I ¨have¨holy spirit. you cant do these things with a person.

as for testimony....

rev 6:[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

cross reference that with

eccl 9:[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

and

[10] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

so if the dead are nonexistant, how can they provide testimony? how can they cry out?

KJV
romans 9:[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

NAstandard
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

Douay-rhiems bible
I SPEAK the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost:

webster
I tell the truth in Christ. I am not lying, my conscience testifying with me in the Holy Spirit,

young´s literal
Truth I say in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing testimony with me in the Holy Spirit,

are you going to claim now that our conscience is a person too?

i dare say that a majority of the scriptures that mention the holy ghost, refer to it as a thing.

but there lies the problem, if its a thing, then theres no trinity.

reply to post by miriam0566


hello

I think we have both gone around this argument many times in the past, so i'm not going to rehash it. I believe one way and you believe another.

we both can give "evidence" but the other is never going to see it as such.



My apologies though for the assumption that you were a J.W

I'm of no denomination myself, in fact IMHO i believe that the Church, as modern society has it, is not Biblical.

That said if you want to debate a particular scripture piece at a time i'm more than willing.

All the best

David

reply to post by miriam0566


Good Point.

david

Originally posted by miriam0566
but i showed you examples where it is. are you ignore the scriptures i quote?

luked 1:41 ¨filled¨

Like an evil spirit with a highly evolved personality can fill or possess a being so can the Holy Spirit. It's a ghost for heaven's sake!

matt 3:11 he shall baptize you with the holy ghost (instead of the before mentioned water)

Have you ever had your body obtained by such a force? It may be likened with being nearly drowned in water. You can't breathe you get warmer, pressure against the temples in your head, fingers cold, it's almost like dying. It certainly has no resemblanse with what I see on the tellie or at pentecostal meetings etc. The Spirit readies and refines you for your destiny.

acts 10:38 jesus was anointed with the holy ghost (instead of oil like previous isrealite kings were)

Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

acts 10:44 holy ghost is ¨poured out¨

if you want more i can quote more.

the language is staring you in the face. even today we say we ¨receive¨ holy spirit. I ¨have¨holy spirit. you cant do these things with a person.

as for testimony....

rev 6:[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

cross reference that with

eccl 9:[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

and

[10] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

so if the dead are nonexistant, how can they provide testimony? how can they cry out?

KJV
romans 9:[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

NAstandard
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

Douay-rhiems bible
I SPEAK the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost:

webster
I tell the truth in Christ. I am not lying, my conscience testifying with me in the Holy Spirit,

young´s literal
Truth I say in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing testimony with me in the Holy Spirit,

are you going to claim now that our conscience is a person too?

i dare say that a majority of the scriptures that mention the holy ghost, refer to it as a thing.

but there lies the problem, if its a thing, then theres no trinity.

Don't mix extinguishable fires, mere candles, with the Light of God.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Like an evil spirit with a highly evolved personality can fill or possess a being so can the Holy Spirit. It's a ghost for heaven's sake!

filled and possesed are to separated words and aren´t interchangable, look up the greek wording

Have you ever had your body obtained by such a force? It may be likened with being nearly drowned in water. You can't breathe you get warmer, pressure against the temples in your head, fingers cold, it's almost like dying. It certainly has no resemblanse with what I see on the tellie or at pentecostal meetings etc. The Spirit readies and refines you for your destiny.

im sure the experience is amazing but you´re again ignoring the scripture. water is not living, and it is used to baptized. suddenly the bible is saying that jesus will be baptized with a person? simply, it doesnt make sense

Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

that was his baptizim, not his anointing. anointing as king involved pouring oil on the persons head (see king david). again, using an inanimated object (oil) to anoint. it wouldnt make any sense if the holy ghost was a person

Don't mix extinguishable fires, mere candles, with the Light of God.

huh?

Originally posted by miriam0566
water is not living, and it is used to baptized. suddenly the bible is saying that jesus will be baptized with a person?

Indeed. Jesus was learning even there. The Spirit of God is a highly personal being and that being showed itself like a dove (pigeon if you like). The bible says that the Holy Ghost went into a dove and materialised itself uppon Jesus as he rose from the water when John the Baptist baptised him.

Added: The Holy Ghost took over the baptising cermony so to speak. A happy memory, not much more, but it must have been a happy moment. Loads of dopamine...

[edit on 7/4/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Contrast Lucifer with Jesus.
Lucifer had ambition to be equal to God, despite the fact that he did not deserve to be seated at the highest spot in heaven.
Jesus, on the other hand did not have ambition to gain exaltation in himself, but chose to be humble, despite the fact that he could have had a right to claim it for himself.
Throughout the entries in the Bible concerning Jesus, he only claims for himself that which God has bestowed onto him.
We feel it neccissary, for some reason, to lay claim upon titles and positions, on behalf of Jesus, for which he has not claimed himself.
Sorry to have to keep repeating this, but, once Jesus is no longer a man, and has become God, we no longer have a representative for the human race, and an advocate for us in heaven and an intercessor for us to God and a sacrifice to avert God's wrath against us.
Untill I have been risen from the dead to face judgement and have passed, through the blood of Christ, Jesus will continue to be Christ, the chosen One among men.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Contrast Lucifer with Jesus.

Why would I compare a Roman god to Jesus? Lucifer is the morningstar in Roman mythology, the male aspect of Venus so to speak. Jesus is also the clear morning star in Christian thought, so Lucifer and Jesus are two forces fighting about the same thing really.