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Confessions of an ex-conspiracy-theorist

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posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 04:35 AM
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reply to post by royalblood
 


I also found out that they are no conspirators. This was surprising to me at first, but after awhile this knowledge put a bad light on those who say they are conspirators. What is the agenda of CTs who continue to make such claims despite lack of evidence?




posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 11:37 AM
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DONT TRUST SKYFLOATING, HE HAS BEEN CO-OPTED!

Seriously though, I think he has a point. For the vast part, Masonry is pretty boring and dull, and the sources who claim otherwise are VERY questionable.

That said, there is evidence of indvidual lodges being linked to criminal activity. For example, P2 in Italy, the Grand Orient Lodge in Paris and a couple of others. But even then, these are considered "black lodges" by many within mainstream Freemasonry. And even with these irregular lodges, there is very little proof of illegal acts being undertaken by the Lodge. Often, the lodge itself is a cover for other groups, such as Mafia families or, in the case of P2, Operation Gladio. Real secret societies, up to their necks in criminal activity.

The linkup between black lodges and criminal groups is interesting, but hardly unexpected. The secrey of such groups, as well as their exclusiveness, allows for meetings which would look suspicious if conducted otherwise.

Then again, I am hardly an expert on secret societies, so if someone wants to correct me, feel free.



posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by Kaliayev


The linkup between black lodges and criminal groups is interesting, but hardly unexpected. The secrey of such groups, as well as their exclusiveness, allows for meetings which would look suspicious if conducted otherwise.



That reminds me of something that happened to me about a decade ago. An acquaintance that I didnt like too much, for his criminal and violent aura, asked me to his office. He talked to me about the "Order of the Teutonic Knights" or something like that and asked me if I wanted to join. "Is that similar to freemasonry?" the young and gullible me asked. I havent forgotten what he answered: "No its the real stuff. We play in politics and big money".
I declined the invitation. From that day on I didnt see much of him anymore. About a year later I heard he was spending a long time in jail on a number of charges, among them money laundering.

That must have been one of the times I briefly touched a real secret society conspiracy.



posted on Oct, 5 2007 @ 11:24 AM
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This is where I got my statement of masons lack of credibility and willingness to decieve.

I will let your former Grand Commander of the Supreme Council 1859, Albert Pike tell his story from the book Morals and Dogma. It may have been cleaned up.
www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...
www.sacred-texts.com...


Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it. So God Himself incapacitates many men, by color-blindness, to distinguish colors, and leads the masses away from the highest Truth, giving them the power to attain only so much of it as it is profitable to them to know. Every age has had a religion suited to its capacity. pg 104

Now some of you may think they no longer teach this dogma.

"The Teachers, even of Christianity, are, in general, the most ignorant of the true meaning of that which they teach. There is no book of which so little is known as the Bible. To most who read it, it is as incomprehensible as the Sohar. So Masonry jealously conceals its secrets, and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray" pg 105

Look back at my previous post and how often the Masons posting said my christian views were ignorant.

They also say lower members are not told the truth, and there ultimate goal is to master the world. Look at this, they even speak of the conflicts with the corrupt catholics, just like the masons posted earlier in this thread.

"The tendencies and tenets of the Order were enveloped in profound mystery, and it externally professed the most perfect orthodoxy. The Chiefs alone knew the aim of the Order: the Subalterns followed them without distrust." pg 817

"To acquire influence and wealth, then to intrigue, and at need to fight, to establish the Johannite or Gnostic and Kabalistic dogma, were the object and means proposed to the initiated Brethren. The Papacy and the rival monarchies, they said to them, are sold and bought in these days, become corrupt, and to-morrow, perhaps, will destroy each other. All that will become the heritage of the Temple: the World will soon come to us for its Sovereigns and Pontiffs. We shall constitute the equilibrium of the Universe, and be rulers over the Masters of the World."


It is really simple to understand, unless you trust people that are taught to lie.

Masons are a religion founded with the beliefs of ancient powers, druidic and Egyptian, there are some fascinating articles on claims that Jesus and Moses are part of the same Eygptian dieties blood line, hence why they use Egyptian symbolism in their worship. Google around to read this religious doctrine.

Now they will claim this book was not taught anymore, and actually I read it was not passed out anymore after 1974. or maybe it is, how would we know.

Here is another 33 degree mason.
The Book of Ceremonial Magic
by Arthur Edward Waite
www.sacred-texts.com...

"The Divine Love, says the book of True Black Magic, 2 must precede the acquisition of the Science of Solomon, son of King David. The book of True Black Magic is simply the Key of Solomon adapted to Goëtic intentions"
Note the previous post where the guy laughed when a non mason used the word Solomon, the mason seemed to claim Solomon as part of their religion.

There are many other conjuring spells in the book some to even conjure Lucifer, of coarse the Masons just have rituals. Read these then go watch that film on the Bohemian Grove.

They also claim this 33 degree mason was not a leader of the masons. I wonder if they might be truthful in that statement.

Now to all you masons out there, fulfill your duty, stand against the truth and light I send your way, do what you swore, and once again mislead those you consider deserve only to be misled.


[edit on 5-10-2007 by Redge777]



posted on Oct, 5 2007 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by Redge777
 


good post redge. thoughtful and well put together.

now get this: based on the personal speculations of two guys, waite and pike, hundreds of conspiracy-books and thousands of conspiracy-websites have been written.

the freemasonry conspiracy theorists either quote pike or they point to the P2 affair in italy. They keep having to come up with the same stories to discredit freemasonry.

if you actually provide some quotes that are not older than 100 years, I might start wondering.

compare

anti

with

pro

and tell me which seems more interesting and which seems more true.
Now doubt the anti-masonry site is more fun and interesting to browse through. but which site contains more real facts? the second one, without question.


[edit on 5-10-2007 by Skyfloating]



posted on Oct, 5 2007 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


I guess it all comes down to who you believe, lets get rid of all secrets then we will all know.



posted on Oct, 5 2007 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by Redge777
 


So you would be willing to reveal all of your personal secrets? Post them online here at ats and I will share some secrets in return.

All companies should get rid of their secrets too? All parents should reveal everything? Lets also make sure to ask God...should God reveal all the mysteries and secrets of creation?

You want everything about everyone laid out? Total transparency?

May I install a camera in your house so that I see everything you do and we get rid of all your secrets?



posted on Oct, 6 2007 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Redge777
 


So you would be willing to reveal all of your personal secrets? Post them online here at ats and I will share some secrets in return.

What personal secrets I might have do not effect, nor are targeted at society, you can keep your personal secrets, as stated many times it is there intersection with society that is the issue.


All companies should get rid of their secrets too? All parents should reveal everything? Lets also make sure to ask God...should God reveal all the mysteries and secrets of creation?

a company keeps secrets to dominate other companies, as do the masons, they wish to dominate other groups.
Do you now claim to be God? And God has had the grace to share the secrets of his love with me.


You want everything about everyone laid out? Total transparency?

May I install a camera in your house so that I see everything you do and we get rid of all your secrets?

Unfortunately any answer I give would only be spun by you as paranoid, you and I know the truth.

Bring it on, been there done that. God is my judge, not man. Slander campaigns are one of the first strikes of those that disinform. And if I had secrets, or claims were made that I do, that would not disprove the logic of the argument.



posted on Oct, 6 2007 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by Redge777
 


Freemasonry does not target society.

From all the posts Ive read by you, my personal opinion about you is that you are knowledgeable in many areas, well-intentioned and intelligent. But unfortunately you seem to have been misled about the cause of global issues and what certain organizations are all about.



posted on Oct, 6 2007 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Thank you for your kind words, and I understand the valid skeptism of my views. They are built on incomplete informations sets.

Here is a previous post that reflects my idea on your comment.

I think of it this way, there is a car, it is covered by one of those car covers. The government says it is a old junker, nothing to see move along. But we can see the tires, we know those are really nice tires, and the shape is a sports car.

So what do we do, we hem and haw and guess at what color the upholstery might be and if it is leather, we don't have a clue and really know nothing, but we try to figure it out because we know the government is lying to us.

So we come here toss around ideas and try to figure a little more out each day, just keep pushing more and more into memory until you can take a guess. If it is good others jump in.

Its great fun and a mental challenge, something not always available in the real world.

Many times I try to stick to logical arguments, other times I speculate.



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 02:23 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

There are only three degrees and I went up three degrees!


That is highly odd. According to the following, there are well more than three degrees:

From Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma

www.sacred-texts.com...

"Titles of Degrees as herein given have in some instances been changed. Correct titles are as follows:

1 °--Apprentice.
2°--Fellow-craft.
3 °--Master.
4°--Secret Master.
5°--Perfect Master.
6°--Intimate Secretary.
7°--Provost and Judge.
8°--Intendant of the Building.
9°--Elu of the Nine.
10°--Elu of the Fifteen.
11°--Elu of the Twelve.
12°--Master Architect.
13°--Royal Arch of Solomon.
14°--Perfect Elu.
15 °--Knight of the East.
16°--Prince of Jerusalem.
17°--Knight of the East and West.
18°--Knight Rose Croix.
19°--Pontiff.
20°--Master of the Symbolic Lodge.
21°--Noachite or Prussian Knight.
22°--Knight of the Royal Axe or Prince of Libanus.
23°--Chief of the Tabernacle.
24°--Prince of the Tabernacle.
25 °--Knight of the Brazen Serpent.
26°--Prince of Mercy.
27°--Knight Commander of the Temple.
28°--Knight of the Sun or Prince Adept.
29°--Scottish Knight of St. Andrew.
30°--Knight Kadosh.
31°--Inspector Inquisitor.
32°--Master of the Royal Secret."

According to the book, the approval of the book was done by a supreme council of 33rd degree Freemasons.

It is written in the book that no one under the 32nd degree is to become aware of what transpires at 32nd degree and up. According to Pike, those, not at least 32nd degree, are not "enlightened" and will not be "enlightened" until they are tapped for 32nd initiate ino the highest level of Freemasonry.



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by OrionStars
 


These issues have been answered in the thread by masons and non-masons alike. Refer to the thread.



posted on Oct, 8 2007 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by OrionStars


It is written in the book that no one under the 32nd degree is to become aware of what transpires at 32nd degree and up.


Oh really? Exactly *where* in the book does it say that now?


According to Pike, those, not at least 32nd degree, are not "enlightened" and will not be "enlightened" until they are tapped for 32nd initiate ino the highest level of Freemasonry.


More BS. Not only am I a 32° Scottish Rite Mason, but I serve my Scottish Rite Temple as Master of Kadosh. That means that when we confer the 32nd Degree, I act as the Presiding Officer.

Pike never said anything about becoming "enlightened" by receiving a degree of Masonry. The degrees can *assist* one in becoming enlightened, but can't do the job for you.

Furthermore, no one is "tapped" to receive the 32° in the Southern Jurisdiction. Those Brothers who wish to receive the 32nd simply apply for it.



posted on Oct, 9 2007 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by OrionStars
It is written in the book that no one under the 32nd degree is to become aware of what transpires at 32nd degree and up.

Oh really? Exactly *where* in the book does it say that now?

Pike never said anything about becoming "enlightened" by receiving a degree of Masonry. The degrees can *assist* one in becoming enlightened, but can't do the job for you.


Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it. So God Himself incapacitates many men, by color-blindness, to distinguish colors, and leads the masses away from the highest Truth, giving them the power to attain only so much of it as it is profitable to them to know. Every age has had a religion suited to its capacity. p104-105

The Templars, like all other Secret Orders and Associations, had two doctrines, one concealed and reserved for the Masters, which was Johannism; the other public, which was the Roman Catholic. Thus they deceived the adversaries whom they sought pg 817

What the Chiefs of the Order really believed and taught, is indicated to the Adepts by the hints contained in the high Degrees of Free-Masonry, and by the symbols which only the Adepts understand.

The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages. pg 819


This took me 1 minute 58 seconds to find, should I continue, I am sure there is more.


masonic light from another tread speaking of another poster-
Obviously, his "education" comes from Internet conspiracy websites. To an honest, unbiased researcher, his assertions about Albert Pike, the Scottish Rite degrees, the P2 Lodge, etc., are laughable.

This was not directed at me but I found it ironic. Personally I agree in honest research, but I admit I have a bias.

[edit on 9-10-2007 by Redge777]



posted on Oct, 9 2007 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by Redge777


This took me 1 minute 58 seconds to find, should I continue, I am sure there is more.


I actually wish you would have, because you may have missed the point. It has been said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That's because if we know only a little bit about a particular subject, instead of the whole story, we can easily be led to drawing false conclusions.

For example, you said that it took you "1 minute 58 seconds to find" your quote. This leads me to believe that you have not the read the book, and are unaware of Pike's context. Furthermore, you probably have not read Pike's other works, which sometimes say pretty much the same thing, although presenting varying viewpoints. And lastly, you seem unaware that Pike eventually retracted many of the statements that you quoted after Gould published his "History of Freemasonry".

When Pike wrote "Morals and Dogma", he was convinced that modern Freemasonry was the lineal successors of the Knights Templar. In "Morals and Dogma", Pike wrote that the candidate was intentionally led astray by false interpretations in the Blue Degrees because the Templars are not mentioned there. In his Legenda for the 30th Degree, Pike changed his mind. He still said that the Blue Degree initiate was misled, but not intentionally. Instead, Pike had reached the conclusion that Webb, Cross, Preston, and the rest of the early Masonic lecturers themselves did not understand the symbols, and were "dunces" instead of deceivers. The Templar legends are recited in the higher degrees of the Scottish Rite, so Pike thought this was reserved for the "Princes of Masonry", i.e., members of the Scottish Rite Templar Orders.

The English Masonic historian Robert Freke Gould put all of these ideas to rest when he published his findings. Brother Gould discovered that there was no evidence of any sort of Masonic Templary until the mid-eighteenth century, after the famous Ramsay Oration was published. The evidence Gould presented caused Pike to retract his earlier writings on the Templar connection.

Although today in pop culture there is still a lot of talk about a Masonic-Templar connection, and we've even seen some pretty good movies and books about it. The film "National Treasurer" was based on it, and Dan Brown is about to release a novel based on it also. But serious historians, both Masonic and non-Masonic, no longer take it very seriously.



This was not directed at me but I found it ironic. Personally I agree in honest research, but I admit I have a bias.


Well, I don't think anyone can be *completely* unbiased. But accusing Pike, a sincere if somewhat unorthodox Christian, of devil worship is a little bit too much. I'm sure you, as well as I, remember something about bearing false witness written somewhere.



posted on Oct, 9 2007 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
And lastly, you seem unaware that Pike eventually retracted many of the statements that you quoted after Gould published his "History of Freemasonry".

His retraction would follow his ideas of hiding truth, as much as discard them. His denials do not make them any less valid. Its a crediblity thing of a person who teaches methods of deception.

I do appreciate the added information to the context. Thank you.



Well, I don't think anyone can be *completely* unbiased. But accusing Pike, a sincere if somewhat unorthodox Christian, of devil worship is a little bit too much. I'm sure you, as well as I, remember something about bearing false witness written somewhere.


It is very easy to fall into the worship of idols, and I have not witnessed Pike doing anything nor have claimed to. I have only read what he has said in some of his writings. Honestly I can't even tell you if he wrote them. I have seen some evidence in my view that leads me to believe some secret societies have views against my belief. I also have personal experiances that make up my knowledge base and bias.

Mostly I keep my beliefs out of the discussion, it is the secrecy I see as the problem. But if asked, I do try and explain my beliefs



posted on Oct, 9 2007 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
I actually wish you would have, because you may have missed the point. It has been said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That's because if we know only a little bit about a particular subject, instead of the whole story, we can easily be led to drawing false conclusions.


This is actually the counter argument to secrecy being bad. But I do not think it applies for that, although it can be spun as that.

If his statements were vague, or were only in one or two parts I read, I would conclude that you may be correct, but when I read it it follows that theme.

The reason I found them in a 1:58 is I had read enough to be able to remember where the passages were.



posted on Oct, 9 2007 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by Redge777
 


You keep making a point of secrecy and mystery being a bad thing. To which I will only respond: The whole universe, the whole of creation is cloaked in mystery and the unknown....and its a lot of fun!



posted on Oct, 9 2007 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Redge777

His retraction would follow his ideas of hiding truth, as much as discard them. His denials do not make them any less valid. Its a crediblity thing of a person who teaches methods of deception.


Now you are involved in another circular argument. If Pike was trying to deceive people, he certainly wouldn't publish it in a book. Pike's purpose was to *un*-deceive, thus the reason he wrote what he did. He retracted his statements because his thesis had been proven wrong by Gould. That was in 1881. Since that time, Pike's original thesis concerning the Templars has been completely discarded due to even more evidence that proved Gould's work.

For example, Pike did not have access to early Scottish Masonic documents that researchers and scholars do today. Nor did Pike have access to the monumental amount of Masonic documents in the British Museum, which prove the Blue Lodge lectures are much older than Pike realized.



[edit on 9-10-2007 by Masonic Light]



posted on Oct, 9 2007 @ 12:14 PM
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I said:

"I actually wish you would have, because you may have missed the point. It has been said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That's because if we know only a little bit about a particular subject, instead of the whole story, we can easily be led to drawing false conclusions."

Redge said:

"This is actually the counter argument to secrecy being bad. But I do not think it applies for that, although it can be spun as that."

It has nothing to do with secrecy. None of Pike's books (or his opinions, for that matter), are secret. Everything Pike has ever written is available for study to anyone. Same thing goes with the historical Masonic douments that disprove Pike's original opinion. It isn't a matter of people keeping secrets, it's a matter for academic researchers to wade through tons of information and try to sort it all out.


If his statements were vague, or were only in one or two parts I read, I would conclude that you may be correct, but when I read it it follows that theme.


I didn't say they were vague. I just said that they were shown to be in error, and were disproven long before either of us were born.



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