Problem Lodge....

reply to post by JustMe74


Sounds good to me.. if he sent his dues card to one of the known to be Masons he should be able to feel assured that, if he is a brother, his own brothers would never use his information in a malicious or irresponsible way..

I believe we all abide by these same ethics.

If he is a Mason..

So far he has resorted to pictures.. from two different states from both sides of the country..

The supposed gun hes speaking about was over a newspaper from Washington, which I named the lodge and city on a previous page.

Hes a fraud in my mind, nothing will change that.. if he walked into my lodge and we gave him our test he would have failed, and he would have been escorted back out to the parking lot.

I am not a Mason and could never be as I am a female but have respect for the Masons that I have known for many years. I am, however, owner of a Harley Davidson motorcycle and have ridden since 1967.

During my riding years I have met many Certified Harley Davidson mechanics and thousands of bikers.

HD has told us numerous times he is a Milwaukee Factory Certified Harley Davidson Tech. Can someone tell me what that has to do with being a Mason?

I believe HD is probably a Mason that caused a problem within his lodge. My reasoning is that many, if not most, male bikers have rather large egos. It seems logical that HD would also be a biker. I haven't met any Harley Davidson mechanic that doesn't have at least one bike.

Could it be possible that HD carried his biker ego to the lodge meetings?
After all he has called some of the people that do business with him scummy freaks. This attitude is disrespectful IMO. Did he show his butt with the lodge members? Was he asked to leave the lodge due to a bad attitude there? Is he engineering the actions taken to make it appear the Lodge is attacking him?

We have heard one side of the story. IMO the rest of the story might show HD in an entirely different light.

Just my opinion.

Dizzie

[edit on 24-3-2008 by dizziedame]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
if he walked into my lodge and we gave him our test he would have failed, and he would have been escorted back out to the parking lot.

Then you would be a poor mason indeed if you were to allow such abhorrent treatment of visitors. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the idea of Masonic Ritual Differences. Have you ever attended a lodge out of state? From what I understand about Pennsylvania work, it should be different enough from Ohio that I think you'd be in for a shock.

Edit: Here's another discussion on some of the differences, that suggests a number of books on the subject.

[edit on 3/25/2008 by JoshNorton]

reply to post by HDFACTORYCERTIF




[edit on 03/21/08 by Stumpy1]

reply to post by JoshNorton


If your so apt to point out the differences that made him unable to answer such a question that all the Masons on here at least knew and all coming from different states, this is a mighty big coincidence.. But unless your going to actually research how his ritual goes (just the average opening to a meeting will do) then I must say your argument stands no ground.

Unless you can find that the ritual actually does not mention the material he was quizzed over. I believe the questions posed would have been represented in all Masonic lodges, regardless of state.

Are they in yours, Josh?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I believe the questions posed would have been represented in all Masonic lodges, regardless of state.

The question about meridian, as posed in this thread, is not a part of the ritual in Texas. That said, I have asked him other questions in private that he either overlooked or ignored; and I know for a FACT that these would be included, no matter where you are (P*P*o*I*). No answers to those have been forthcoming. Instead I got a lodge website and pictures.

Oh how I had hoped that the thread would die with that last post.

reply to post by The Axeman


It's not? Odd. Perhaps its a north south difference.. others in the Northern states have this part of their ritual.

Hes not a Mason. Unless you have some secret proof that he is and will not reveal it, my mind will not change on the subject.

I don't like games. And I despise those who play them. Cowardly.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Hes not a Mason. Unless you have some secret proof that he is and will not reveal it, my mind will not change on the subject.

I don't. That said, I still reserve judgement; though I lean more and more toward agreement with you.

This is a tragic event, and it will and does send some Masons into a state of denial.
Its good that many feel outrage that things like this can happen, RacerX and I feel outrage as well.
I have stated all along that this hopefully is an isolated incident in Masonry, and I do want to believe that.
What I have shown in my last post was, how I was alerted to my business web site being turned to a teen porn site. This was done with malice to damage my company and severe damage was done.
Damage is being done to RacerX business at this time by these Monkeys and followers.
Since Grand Lodge has been informed from the start of these troubles, they share the blame by allowing these actions to continue and escalate.
RacerX and I are deeply troubled that Grand Lodge refuses to communicate with us and resolve this matter.
Is this a conspiracy? I have to say it certainly appears to be such.
As I have stated before, the motivation and actions of these Masons gone bad is financial based. The attack on both our businesses is financial.
These Monkeys have soiled the reputation of the York Rite also, if I was in that part of Masonry, I would not be happy.
One point may be, these members make all members of the fraternity look bad no matter where you are.
There will be a few attacking me here, that hide their names. You do now have my name, I do not fear you, you fear me.
RacerX and I will provide much further documentation that will cause terrible anger in many, but then again Grand Lodge has allowed this to go in this unfortunate direction.

Originally posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF
RacerX and I will provide much further documentation that will cause terrible anger in many, but then again Grand Lodge has allowed this to go in this unfortunate direction.

As far as ATS goes, that and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

Give it a rest already and handle your business.

The more you repeat yourself here the more disingenuous it all sounds.

As an aside, why is the link you sent me in email now 404? Did the lodge take down its website?

The doubt grows, and the thread continues to degenerate. Are you familiar with the metaphorical "dead horse?"

reply to post by HDFACTORYCERTIF

This is a tragic event

What is?... this sham your running? It is indeed..

and it will and does send some Masons into a state of denial.

Excuse me? No one is in denial.. you have been unable to prove who you are. Your stories are full of holes... every Mason here gave you their lodge information, you can look any one of us up, we are who we say we are.. you are nothing more then a *EDIT* who refuses to hand out said information.. why is it?

Is this a conspiracy? I have to say it certainly appears to be such.

I agree.. a punk kid sitting in his mommies basement getting a good chuckle out of these stories and reading the responses.

These Monkeys have soiled the reputation of the York Rite also, if I was in that part of Masonry, I would not be happy.

Makes no sense what so ever.. why would the "york rite" attack Masonry in any way? .. Seriously. Your story sounds so utterly *EDIT*, that I cannot believe you for a second. Your education on Masonry is elementary at best.

There will be a few attacking me here, that hide their names. You do now have my name, I do not fear you, you fear me.

Fearing you...

You talk of hiding names.. what is your NAME? .. My name is Steve. Nice to meet you. I am from Solar Lodge #730 Second District of Ohio, I belong to the Miami Valley of the Scottish Rite as well.

Are so such a coward you cannot give the same information?

RacerX and I will provide much further documentation that will cause terrible anger in many, but then again Grand Lodge has allowed this to go in this unfortunate direction.

I await some real evidence. Show me that, and not only will I believe you, I will assist you in your troubles. As much as that is possible, as we all belong to different Grand Lodges.

So. What say you?

Edit to remove anything even remotely able to get warned and or have post sensored.. sad that this has to be done on ATS .. but what ever.

[edit on 3/25/2008 by Rockpuck]

I'm just posting as a regular goof here, not a "moderator". And here's an observation - the OP has been a member for years, and in his very first thread (accessible from his profile) he says he's a factory certified HD tech and a Mason. Man, that's an awfully long time to wait, and some pretty elaborate setup, just to start a ruse, isn't it?

Now there's likely a completely different side to all this that's unavailable to us, but at this point, I don't think we're dealing with a kid in a basement poking the Masons for sport.

But that's just me.

Originally posted by yeahright
I'm just posting as a regular goof here, not a "moderator". And here's an observation - the OP has been a member for years, and in his very first thread (accessible from his profile) he says he's a factory certified HD tech and a Mason. Man, that's an awfully long time to wait, and some pretty elaborate setup, just to start a ruse, isn't it?

On the face of it, agreed. But by the same token, the outrageousnous of the claim as it started out just didn't pass the sniff test. Also, for a Mason with a legitimate, supportable beef, let's be honest: ATS seems an unlikely place to go searching for advice and support. The initial response reflected that skepticism but things were taken offline and emails exchanged primarily with Axeman although HD and I exchanged some as well.

In my case, being separated by a border and a continent, I really wasn't in the position to ascertain one way or another and didn't have the local contacts to source. So I let it drop and so far as I know, the issue dropped. Dropped that is until it sprang back to life with additional apparent embellishments giving it an even more lurid appearance.

Then Skyfloating asked one simple question in this post. HD couldn't answer it and hasn't yet come close to answering it, even though for even the newest Mason, the answer is straightforward, let alone for someone claiming to be a Master Mason and a Lodge officer two chairs away from the Master's chair. Huge red flag.

For a non-Mason, the best way I can illustrate the problem with that inability is by this image.



The parallel with HD's story goes something like this: nice hips, nice bust, great shoulders, nice face and eyes. But suddenly you see that hairdo and you realise that there's something significantly not right with the picture as a whole.

Originally posted by yeahright
Now there's likely a completely different side to all this that's unavailable to us, but at this point, I don't think we're dealing with a kid in a basement poking the Masons for sport.

But that's just me.

I don't think anyone here thinks that whoever's cooking this up is some basement-bound nerdy kid. However, I seriously doubt that the person posting under the name HDFACTORYCERTIF is actually who he claims to be.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


You could very well be correct. Once you (meaning me) use "why would anyone do that?" as an argument, you're on thin ice. But it strains credulity to the breaking point, for me. We're looking at it from completely different perspectives, since I'm not a Mason and have no dog in this fight. To me, either alternative is equally incredible - someone posing as a Mason to create this tale of a rogue monkey lodge (!), or there really is a group of supposed adults behaving this way.

And people wonder why I've never joined anything in my life. Except for, you know, ATS.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Then Skyfloating asked one simple question in this post. HD couldn't answer it and hasn't yet come close to answering it, even though for even the newest Mason, the answer is straightforward, let alone for someone claiming to be a Master Mason and a Lodge officer two chairs away from the Master's chair. Huge red flag.

And, as Axeman and I keep trying to point out, that question is meaningless as a shibboleth because it is NOT used everywhere. Axeman states that it is not used in Texas work (and I can confirm); in u2u Skyfloating told me that it's used in the FC exam in his state, and a quick Google search can show that such a question is absent from Morgan's Exposition (p62); Texas work is likely based on either Tennessee or Louisiana work (as many Masonic founders of Texas were from Tennessee and the first lodge chartered in Texas was given its charter by the Louisiana Grand Lodge), so it's quite possible such a question is missing from other jurisdictions as well.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Fair enough. But geographically, we're talking a different direction than what you're focusing on and the larger point is that it's an issue of cumulative oddities and no one oddity in and of itself.

I ain't pickin' on nobodies....I'se jus' makin' sum points.

reply to post by yeahright


Its not just the answer itself but the WAY in which he answered and behaved that is indicative of many, many things.

However...it could also be that he had never heard that question because he´s in a poorly run lodge.

And as Josh Norton pointed out...some states dont even use the term.

I used it because I hear it everytime someone is initiated into the "second degree". And in our lodge we have that a few times a year, so I hear it a few times a year.

In any case, the "big secret answer" is no secret at all.

I asked "In which respect is the sun always at its meridian?"

This question does not occur in freemasonry. Its invented by me.

But what most freemasons memorize is the following:

"The sun is always at its meridian in respect to freemasonry".

So, there are really no secret questions and answers. There´s only the knowledge of what I know a certain group of people to be memorizing and from that you can detect certain "hints" in their use of vocabulary.

And from that you can...

ascertain and determine, with accuracy and precision, the limits and proportions of...

someones involvement with freemasonry. When someone talks like I just talked in the last sentence I know he must have been memorizing the same material as I have.


As most of this stuff is not found on google (yet), you can pretty quickly ascertain and determine with accuracy and precision, who´s posing as one and who isnt.



[edit on 25-3-2008 by Skyfloating]

Which brings me back to... why? Why would someone register here three years ago and claim to be a Mason (and a Harley machinist) to start a thread two and a half years later slamming a lodge; a thread that drags on for six months?

Rhetorical question. Only the OP could answer that, and I'm guessing a goodly number of thread participants won't believe the answer, no matter what it is.

But to take the time and expend the energy to do that, including off-site contact with other ATS members via u2u and email, that just blows me away. Another one of those things that shall forever remain a mystery, I'm guessing.

I still don't know what to think, but I know which way I'm leaning.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Well said.

I would have given perhaps a differenrt answer, and indeed asked a different question (probably more than a couple) but I have no doubt that I would pass any examination from any regular mason, jurisdictional discrepancies notwithstanding. Try me. I am equally certain that any interloper I came across would be as obvious as the nose on his face when confronted with this verbal inspection.

There really is no faking it. You've either memorized it or you haven't. Period.

(To be fair [and play devil's advocate], I know plenty of brothers who rely solely on their dues cards for proof! )