And again with the hammer.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Is "deny ignorance" a one-way concept? Just checking because the tenor on the board as of late certainly seems to be that negative and incorrect assertions and associations directed at Masonry are welcome while defense against or correction of the same are not.

Defense seems fine to me, and I would never deny a person the right to defend an idea. But when defense crosses the line into mudslinging, then it gets attention. When it borders on outright threats it results in those cute little red stickers.

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and see if I can point out a problem.

You willingly join a group with some history, rightly or wrongly gained, for being less than above board. This group has "secret" rites and is considered a SECRET organization, at least to the general public. You are closed group, meaning that there must be some standard decided on by those already involved to allow a new member to join.

And yet, you get all up in arms and act surprised when people question the aims and purposes of the group? You expect that you can participate in a CONSPIRACY forum without anyone ever seeing a conspiracy angle to your group? You think that just because you say "It ain't so" everyone who fails to automatically believe you is persecuting you?

What planet do you live on? Conspiracy is seen in everything by the people that come here. This board is aimed at finding conspiracies, and these are found by questioning what is told to the masses. If there is no conspiracy, then all you need to do is let the anti-masons hang themselves for lack of facts. Instead, your rabid defense and attack in anger mode just makes a lot of people think you have something to hide or you wouldn't be so touchy.

Instead of trying to force your innocence down everyone else's throat, have you considered calmly forcing the opposition to prove it's own points? Your taking the heat because you're taking the lead by trying to prove yourselves lily white and without fault. (Ask any cop, the cases that are hardest to get evidence in are the ones where the accused makes the system do all the work.)

In other words, by it's very nature, a conspiracy site will bring out people that think Masons are some evil empire. Expect that, and stop reacting like it's unfair that it would even happen. If incorrect assertions are brought forward, ask for proof, and then attack the proof. If something is negative on a personal level alert us to the post. (BUT, bear in mind, you chose to join a group with a somewhat negative image, so if the negative vibes are about Masons in general, then suck it up and take it as part of the image you chose.)

I think a lot of the problems on this issue are because almost everyone involved has gotten to the point they have run out of material and are down to using mud as their main weapon, on both sides.

Originally posted by NGC2736
So I'm going to go out on a limb here and see if I can point out a problem.

You willingly join a group with some history, rightly or wrongly gained, for being less than above board. This group has "secret" rites and is considered a SECRET organization, at least to the general public. You are closed group, meaning that there must be some standard decided on by those already involved to allow a new member to join.

Collectively, Masons here (at least in my tenure) have been the ones to take the ATS mission statement to heart despite all that has been said to the contrary. That said, would it be more palatable that we say nothing at all rather than go against the desired antagonistic flow? How exactly does this improve the quality and level of discourse on ATS SS? Not at all, IMHO. Mind you, to a certain small demographic, I'm sure that would suit just fine.

Originally posted by NGC2736
And yet, you get all up in arms and act surprised when people question the aims and purposes of the group?

Not at all. I'm a big boy with thick skin. Where it gets vexing is when you get Kandahar'd for trying to correct a wrong.

Originally posted by NGC2736
You expect that you can participate in a CONSPIRACY forum without anyone ever seeing a conspiracy angle to your group? You think that just because you say "It ain't so" everyone who fails to automatically believe you is persecuting you?

No I don't. The Twitchy's of ATS I can deal with just fine, thank you very much. But if Masons aren't 'dog piling', what's the issue?

Originally posted by NGC2736
What planet do you live on? Conspiracy is seen in everything by the people that come here. This board is aimed at finding conspiracies, and these are found by questioning what is told to the masses. If there is no conspiracy, then all you need to do is let the anti-masons hang themselves for lack of facts. Instead, your rabid defense and attack in anger mode just makes a lot of people think you have something to hide or you wouldn't be so touchy.

Try looking at the opening responses in the Obelisk thread. Tell me that they were rabid. Really. Tell me that it wasn't after repeated attempts in reasonable tones that thread began to go off the rails.

And again, looking at that same thread, when have facts gotten in the way of anything?

Originally posted by NGC2736
Instead of trying to force your innocence down everyone else's throat, have you considered calmly forcing the opposition to prove it's own points?

Same thread. Wanna guess what my answer'll be?

Originally posted by NGC2736
Your taking the heat because you're taking the lead by trying to prove yourselves lily white and without fault. (Ask any cop, the cases that are hardest to get evidence in are the ones where the accused makes the system do all the work.)

As I pointed out in my response to SO, I don't and I think I can reasonably speak for the other Masons on the board when I say that no Mason has either. But again, are we just supposed to let the turd sit at the bottom of the pool?

Mebbe so!

Originally posted by NGC2736
In other words, by it's very nature, a conspiracy site will bring out people that think Masons are some evil empire. Expect that, and stop reacting like it's unfair that it would even happen. If incorrect assertions are brought forward, ask for proof, and then attack the proof.

Done and done. The Obelisk thread's a wonderful example of how that approach proved absolutely useless with a poster with an agenda. All 20-odd pages of it.

Originally posted by NGC2736
If something is negative on a personal level alert us to the post. (BUT, bear in mind, you chose to join a group with a somewhat negative image, so if the negative vibes are about Masons in general, then suck it up and take it as part of the image you chose.)

Negative I can deal with. It's the unfounded, damn-near-psychotic-negative that's the problem. Again, shall we ignore the turd until lack of attention makes it a de facto fact? Damned if you do......

Originally posted by NGC2736
I think a lot of the problems on this issue are because almost everyone involved has gotten to the point they have run out of material and are down to using mud as their main weapon, on both sides.

Lack of new material doesn't mean lack of reposting of the same old material. Over and over and over again.

Would it not be nice if the Problem lodge only argued over what ice cream to have at refreshment?
Thats just not what is happening at the Problem lodge.
It does appear to me that some here, would be more productive by focusing in how to resolve the Problem lodge issues.
The Problem lodge has these problems because they feel "The Obligations Are Meaningless Words". Without the Obligations, there are no rules.
The Grand Lodge states they cant hold the members to the Obligations, thus there are no rules or direction, no leadership.
Without direction or rules the Problem lodge was born or mutated to what it is now.
The cowardly advice of RacerX and I simply running away does not solve the the Problem of the Problem lodge.
It would be much more productive to have a plan review and see what can be done to help resolve the situation.

Its good to see you are calm Augustus.
I do value the advice given here. We consider it, weigh it and at times follow it.
Believe me when I say, I know this greatly disturbs many here, this has been a terrible burden to RacerX and I.

FM- in the South, if thats what you are looking for.

Come on Masons> Dont you think that, if the Problem lodge even just a little tried to follow the obligations, they wouldnt be cheating, wronging and defrauding anyone that gets near them?
I find it interesting, and it could be possible that, there is a conspiracy on a conspiracy board to stop a Master Mason from talking about the obligations.
It seems many run, and cry like little girls, "Oh BooHoo, that mean HD actually took the obligations seriously and doesnt like being screwed over by his brothers" You must kick him out of here right now!
Look "men"! heres what you do- 'Pray for help". then let me know if you feel any better.

[edit on 17-2-2008 by HDFACTORYCERTIF]

Originally posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF
FM- in the South, if thats what you are looking for.

Uh, no, that is most certainly not the correct response. Odd that you do not know that.

height, try that Montana!
Try this if it makes you feel better, ask Axeman!

[edit on 17-2-2008 by HDFACTORYCERTIF]

Originally posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF
height, try that Montana!

No, incorrect once more. And I do not get the Montana reference.

Try this if it makes you feel better, ask Axeman!

I am fairly certain that Axeman would know the answer to this relatively simple Masonic question so it would be superflous to ask him. Once again, odd that you do not know this....odd indeed.

rockpuck here you go again with personal insults. Why dont you try to keep on subject.
Yes, I was Junior Warden until I had enough.


Again, ask the AXE.

[edit on 17-2-2008 by HDFACTORYCERTIF]

You are really pulling your hair rockpuck. And yes, you have been warned about your conduct. Knock it off and get back on subject.
You are always saying you are sorry, why is that?
By the way, RacerX and I have not been to a meeting in months.


[edit on 17-2-2008 by HDFACTORYCERTIF]

The point has been made guys. Case rested.

Thanks.