Chávez deal to aid low-income Londoners

Originally posted by Souljah
reply to post by shots

 

So if YOU needed oil to survive and to drive your car and to warm your house and it was offered to you by a socialist leader of a socialist nation (like Venezuela) you would say NO? Well then my Friend, you shall freeze to death because of pride. And let us not forget, that pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

HI Souljah, that's a tough question, I think it his ulterior motives that are being questioned.

I for one am interested in Mauddib's one who's been there insights into these governments.

[edit on 23-8-2007 by Stormdancer777]

[edit on 23-8-2007 by Stormdancer777]

Oh yeah I have seen that video... just like i saw the last part of Moore's lies about the so wonderful Cuban healthcare system...

Anyways, back to Chavez, Chavez was the one to implement the Avila plan, which is a military plan in case of incvasion or when the president of Venezuela calls to use violence against demonstrators....

Plan Ávila was a military contingency plan by the Venezuelan Army meant to restore order in Caracas during episodes of widespread civil unrest.[1][2] The activation of Plan Ávila was ordered by current Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez on April 11, 2002.[3] Saying that sending out soldiers to confront a civilian demonstration could result in a massacre, high-ranking members within the Armed Forces refused to carry out the Plan when ordered to do so by Chávez.[3][2]

On August 27, 2002, the Interamerican Court of Human Rights[4] found that the implementation of Plan Ávila by the Carlos Andrés Pérez regime in response to the 1989 riots known as the Caracazo had resulted in massive human rights violations, and ordered the Venezuelan government to review its military contingency planning to conform to International Human Rights standards.

en.wikipedia.org...

Families of the Venezuelan people who were executed by shots in the head and killed by other shots by the police, military and Chavistas had sued Chavez because he was the one to implement a plan which is known to have caused death of Venezuelans in the past too...

Suing Hugo Chavez
Miami lawyer sues Venezuelan president in federal court over shooting deaths last year during Caracas protests
Matthew Haggman
Daily Business Review
July 11, 2003

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez was sued Thursday in federal court in Miami, accused of violating the human rights of 15 anti-government protesters who were killed or wounded while demonstrating in front of the presidential palace in Caracas.

Family members of the protesters sued under a controversial law that allows non-U.S. residents to sue in U.S. courts over events that occurred in other countries. The plaintiffs claim that the Venezuelan justice system offers no recourse. Six of the 15 demonstrators were killed.

www.law.com...

Here is the recording where Chavez calls for the implementation of Avila plan in Spanish. There were several Venezuelan officers who did not want to obey that order and those were the officers who temporarily ousted Chavez...

www.urru.org...

Some people claim that "only the rich and the CIA" are the ones who opose Chavez, but i ahve given several times pictures and videos of the demonstrations which show from hundreds of thousands in some cases to up to 1.4 million if not more Venezuelans taking to the streets to protest against Chavez... and Chavez had the roads in Venezuela blocked when such anti-Chavez demonstrations happened...

Watch this video of the military movement in one of Caracas' streets as the military moved in after Chavez called for the activation of Plan Avila.

www.youtube.com...

But I guess Chavez didn't do it even when we have recordings of him doing so, officers who had been loyal to him til that day say this happened and we have video of what really happened that day...

What Chavez is trying to do is embarrass the countries that are more affluent and rich, proving a point, while he can offer free and reduce goods, why rich countries can not.

Is just very simple you know.

reply to post by paul76

GREAT DOCUMENTARY!

Thank You for Sharing!

Much things are now clearer to me.

Including how some members here, act as the western media do in this film - and try their best, to put the baddest light possible on mister Chavez. Well thank god that there are people, who have the balls to record and make such films for all of us to know. I know now certain members shall use all their best links and sources (and always bold those quotes and break the rules of this forum board) and try to convince you all, that this documentary is pure socialist-anti-western propaganda and how Chavez himself is a Petro-Terrorist-Socialist-Dictator. Then I guess for some people he is. But not for those 80% of poor Venezuelans, who actually LIVE in the country of Venezuela and took the streets and wanted their president back, when he was taken prisoner by a failed CIA-corporate-military-coup. Yes, Venezuela is not a rich country and the little that they got is oil, which was once not owned the PEOPLE of Venezuela, but by the privately owned corporations in bed with Washington. And Washington still can not get over that the fourth largest exporter of oil does not want to play by their flute.

Originally posted by Souljah
reply to post by paul76

 

GREAT DOCUMENTARY!

Thank You for Sharing!

Much things are now clearer to me.

Including how some members here, act as the western media do in this film - and try their best, to put the baddest light possible on mister Chavez. Well thank god that there are people, who have the balls to record and make such films for all of us to know. I know now certain members shall use all their best links and sources (and always bold those quotes and break the rules of this forum board) and try to convince you all, that this documentary is pure socialist-anti-western propaganda and how Chavez himself is a Petro-Terrorist-Socialist-Dictator. Then I guess for some people he is. But not for those 80% of poor Venezuelans, who actually LIVE in the country of Venezuela and took the streets and wanted their president back, when he was taken prisoner by a failed CIA-corporate-military-coup. Yes, Venezuela is not a rich country and the little that they got is oil, which was once not owned the PEOPLE of Venezuela, but by the privately owned corporations in bed with Washington. And Washington still can not get over that the fourth largest exporter of oil does not want to play by their flute.

It's a powerful watch isn't it? All i can say is "POWER TO THE PEOPLE"

Another more recent, must see, documentary is available on you tube in ten minute segments - John Pilger - The War on Democracy

Only posted in the last day or so, it came out in UK cinemas June this year (2007) and was aired on the UK's ITV channel last Monday (20/08/07).

Enjoy.

Originally posted by Koka
Another more recent, must see, documentary is available on you tube in ten minute segments - John Pilger - The War on Democracy

Only posted in the last day or so, it came out in UK cinemas June this year (2007) and was aired on the UK's ITV channel last Monday (20/08/07).

Enjoy.

Excellent, Cheers.

To stay on topic I looked at the original post and it listed 2 things that I am trying to get info on or found some info from web searches. This is what this thread is about so please understand what i'm trying to figure out.

1. What percentage of the London population will benefit from this?

2. Is poverty on the rise in western nations?

So far I figured out that London and it's surrounding metro area has around 27-29 million people, data taken from wiki. The link that was posted from the Guardian said that "up to" a million people will benefit from this. So this makes me wonder why he is only helping around 3% of the London population?

I also can't find the numbers that say poverty is increasing in western countries. If anyone has links to this please post them. I did find out that there are problems with figuring out who is in poverty and they will pop up on your searches.

So knowing that his aid deal will benefit no more then 3% of the London population, and not knowing that poverty is on the rise in western countries how can I have an opinion on this thread? What data backs up this thread?

Like I said, please post links for the rise in western poverty levels that are based on accurate data from reliable sources and ask yourself why Chavez isn't helping to the other 97% of the London population?

For some reason I see this as a ploy for Chavez gain popularity in the world, question the decisions made in the US, and zero gains for 97% of the London population.

Originally posted by piacenza


Wow what a funny post. Starving people? Hmmm when was the last time you were in Venezuela? Chavez is helping Cuba a gr8 deal and Cuba is helping Venezuela back (Especially with doctors).
Your post show a total ignorance of a country you probabbly know nothing and of a man you know even less. You probably watch a little CNN here and there and you think you know everything. Ohh man ignorance, ignorance, how can we fight it?

Sweetheart, i've been to Venezuela, and i was born in CUBA. Need more?

You are right. Ignorance is bliss- back at ya. YOU obviously dont know politics- if you knew the history, you wouldnt be saying what you say.
Marg, absolutely correct. He feels great POWER in the world watching as he extends his help and reaches out to the ilk of USA and Britain.

Power hungry communist grub.

[edit on 23-8-2007 by dgtempe]

reply to post by Souljah


What do you expect from a pro Chavez reporter.

Of course you are going to like it and once again you are showing your intention of starting the thread because you just turned it into a bash the US instead of his giving away the oil to only a select few. THE OIL Is not free they simply get it at 40% below market value according to one article from a while back.

Big Deal Macy's Has 60 to 75% off sales too.

(scratches head wondering how much chavez paid the bozo to write the propaganda piece)



[edit on 8/23/2007 by shots]

I'm curious? There is obviously a finite amount of oil and therefore money for Chavez to seize. What happens when the wells run dry? With no investment or companies willing to invest in a country where the leader can take their companies at will, won't the whole thing fall apart like a house of cards? Will his citizens support him when the money runs out and there are no jobs and nobody interested in investing there?

Buying votes is just like hiring a Prostitute. When the money runs out the love affair is OVER

Ah you have to love it. It would appear Mr Chavez is caught in a scandal he created whle trying to make the US look bad


Chaveze caught in 800,000 Scandal leaving leaders Embarassed

Chavez is a good guy?

You mean the guy that nationalized the oil industry down there, wants to take away any sort of term limits for President (so he can stay in power forever) and shut down the only opposition TV station in his country??

Yep, whatta nice guy!

Sorry to go against the grain of some here whom i respect and admire, but Chavez is a greasy slime ball Commie oinc oinc and he's just laughing his butt off at us. As bad as Bush is, and he's bad, :shk: We are a very lucky bunch to be HERE and not THERE.

I have heard him speak in Spanish (his Spanish is that of a 3rd grade drop out) and he's a bigger moron than anything we have had here.

He hates America and Americans and he also hates the British. Dont be fooled by that devil incarnate.


SIDE NOTE TO SHOTS: The world must be going to end soon, we actually agree on something.

[edit on 23-8-2007 by dgtempe]

I have heard him speak in Spanish (his Spanish is that of a 3rd grade drop out) and he's a bigger moron than anything we have had here.

I really don't know if we heard the same speeches, but I find his spanish quite articulate, and his vocabulary quite a bit better the current leader of which I did not vote. Again, I dunno what speech you heard that makes him sound like third grade Spanish, but I have yet to hear any.

In any case I believe most of the people here, the typicals of course only calling Chavez the Devil because they would be even worse than he as a leader of any country, are totally spreading slander and rhetoric.

Mister Chavez did not write this report, nor did he say "I am doing this for the poor peopel of London. Nor did he do this to "make himself look good to the world". This was a simple business deal like any other.

What happened plain and simple, as outline in the article is that he felt that there was much beneficial things that they could learn from the consultation, so he traded a discounted oil price for those services. Whatever the discounted oil was used for was completely at the hands of the Town, and had nothing to do with Chavez demanding it or requesting it.

Single parents, carers, the long-term sick and disabled people will benefit from the plan, first mooted during Mr Chávez's visit to the UK last year, paying 50p for a single journey if they use an Oystercard

This is a program that has already existed, and the city simply decided the people listed would benefit the most from the deal.

So how can Business as usual be construed as a plan to spread the revolution? Slander and hateful rhetoric is all I see. The Mayor is quite satisfied with this, and agrees it was a fair trade.

Mr Livingstone, London's mayor, said London and Venezuela had exchanged "those things in which they are rich to the mutual benefit of both".

As far as I know, this is business as usual, and the people who derailed the thread are your typical slanderous pawns of the masters for spreading hateful and supremacist rhetoric.

I hate to be picky, but my country is called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not England. England hasn't existed since 1707.

Sorry, I suppose you don't speak English but speak United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - ese, you don't eat a full-English breakfast but do eat a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Irish full breakfast, Beckham actually captained the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland team in the World Cup, and the oyster passes were to be used in the tube in London which is not in England since 1707 but in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Originally posted by DYepes

I really don't know if we heard the same speeches, but I find his spanish quite articulate, and his vocabulary quite a bit better the current leader of which I did not vote. Again, I dunno what speech you heard that makes him sound like third grade Spanish, but I have yet to hear any.

Chavez articulate?..... please.... He is a really bad president, everytime someone disagrees with him he claims "those people work for the U.S. government and are trying to taint his image"..... The United States is not the only country that he blames for thigns he has done.

I also wonder why you haven't made any comments when i have given several times speeches of Chavez in Spanish showing what a dictator he reeally is.....

Originally posted by DYepes
In any case I believe most of the people here, the typicals of course only calling Chavez the Devil because they would be even worse than he as a leader of any country, are totally spreading slander and rhetoric.

.....first of all i wouldn't want to be a leader of any country, way too many responsibilities i would probably go bald...

Second of all, that is the stupidest remark I have read today...

Meanwhile you and the other Chavistas in these forums have been claiming he is a good man and he is no Communist, some other members like myself have been showing the opisite, even from Chavez's mouth, yet you and some others want to still believe he is a good man, when the evidence shows the contrary....

I wonder what kind of person would claim that "Chavez is a good man fighting for the people" when his greatest friend, ally and mentor is another dictator who took another country down the same road Chavez is taking Venezeula.....

Not to mention that he praises Lenin...

Noticiário - Seleção Diária de Notícias Internacionais - 5/Julho/2007


Reino Unido - The Guardian

Título: Moscow snubs US to sell arms to Venezuela
Data: 28/07/2006

Nick Paton Walsh in Moscow

.......................
He added that during a recent visit to Belarus, Russia's neighbour whose leader was dubbed Europe's last dictator by Washington, he had seen a monument to Lenin. The leftwing leader said: "He will always be in our heart and our ideas."

Link

And of course that's without mentioning what Chavez has been doing to stop all oposition against him...


[edit on 24-8-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by dgtempe

Originally posted by piacenza
Wow what a funny post. Starving people? Hmmm when was the last time you were in Venezuela?

Sweetheart, i've been to Venezuela, and i was born in CUBA. Need more?

I believe the question was when, not if you had been to Venezuela.

Originally posted by shots
What do you expect from a pro Chavez reporter.

Of course you are going to like it and once again you are showing your intention of starting the thread because you just turned it into a bash the US instead of his giving away the oil to only a select few.

As opposed to the non-christain bashing threads that you commonly start, oh the hypocrisy.....

Big Deal Macy's Has 60 to 75% off sales too.

If you possess an ounce of common sense surely you wouldn't pay the over inflated prices prior to the sale. Of course those that allow their egos and vanity to govern their dress code deserve to be ripped off.

(scratches head wondering how much chavez paid the bozo to write the propaganda piece)

Well any evidence you can offer that proves such can only assist your argument, I look forward to seeing it.


I have to laugh or else I'd cry at the blatantly narrowminded and self-centred comments that oppose the actions of Chavez.

He opposes the greed stricken capitalist way of life and strives for the wealth of his country to be shared equally as opposed to it being monopolised by the minority elite.

He opposes a capitalist "democracy" and wants his country to embrace a socialist democracy where poverty stricken communities help themselves and those around them.

It seems so easy for some people to point at those less fortunate and accuse them of being lazy as opposed to acknowledging the cause of thier impoverished lives,
yes it is far easier to allow others to tell you how to think, to hand you your opinions through a media tainted soundbite.

Chavez, although I'm sure not perfect, in my view sits, morally and ethically far far above any present western leader, and almost all other world leaders, a view held by many and the reason the US are so opposed to him remaining in power.

If greed be the catalyst for success, I hope to fail.

Originally posted by Koka
Chavez, although I'm sure not perfect, in my view sits, morally and ethically far far above any present western leader, and almost all other world leaders, a view held by many and the reason the US are so opposed to him remaining in power.

AMEN to that Brother.

I think that the western mainstream media propaganda machine did the rest in turning the world opinion against Chavez and make him look like a new Stalin - a big red threat with a lot of oil, which he does not want to share with the private oil companies. What an egocentric commie!

Originally posted by jaehkimx
Sorry, I suppose you don't speak English but speak United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - ese, you don't eat a full-English breakfast but do eat a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Irish full breakfast, Beckham actually captained the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland team in the World Cup, and the oyster passes were to be used in the tube in London which is not in England since 1707 but in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

English is a language not a nation. You do know the difference between a language and a nation, right?

Secondly, you can have an Ulster fry up (alternative to an English breakfast), England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are independent for the sports of cricket, football and rugby.

If you need any more help to understand the constitutional agreement of my country, please U2U me. Thank you.