UK Police want DNA for litter dropping

The police can't enforce the law now..so i can't see how there going to enforce people dropping littler....The police rely to much on camera footage and DNA evidence...They've forget how to police old skool style.....Hence the unruly young kids causing havoc on the estates. Does this mean people that smoke are going to have there DNA taken for throwing there nub away? This country is always bringing new laws into operation....rarely being enforced.

All excellent points. I think cops walking the streets are much better than any number of camera.

People rob stores all the time that have cameras, cameras obviously aren't a properly deterrent.

Why even continue to pass new more sweeping laws when the old ones can't be enforced ? Not to say that all legislation should be frozen until the existing legislation is being acted upon but the politicians seem more interested in grand standing and making themselves seem like heroes than ensuring the laws they pass are worth more than the paper they're printed on.

Originally posted by paul76
The police can't enforce the law now..so i can't see how there going to enforce people dropping littler

If the DNA law is enforced it will most probably be reinforced with the same rules that apply for Drunk drivers.......You refuse a DNA swab....you are guilty....however though I support the DNA thing I think there could be repercussions via the European Human Rights thing.

I also think that should a swab be taken and the person found not guilty then swabs and DNA samples should be destroyed or handed back to those it was taken from.

Chorlton, thats just the problem the DNA of the innocent wont be returned to them it will be stored for years, do you now understand why I use the phrase Police State. Why would the Police wish to keep tabs on all of us, and are you so ready to hand over your hard fought freedoms to the Police.

I'm afraid attitudes such as yours turns free people into slaves, your guilty if you dont submit to a DNA test, what about the rights of an individual to due process, you want to get rid of the courts as well do you. You are seeing this issue from one perspective and one alone, try looking at the bigger pictutre and the long term implications for the whole populace.

I hate litter myself but I object to police taking DNA and having it stored. Not everyone in the UK is a criminal but the sillier they make the offences the more DNA they'll have. Looks to me like they want the whole country on a file and this is just a polite way of going about it without enforcing the entire citizenship to queue up to hand over their swabs and fingerprints. But - I DON'T BLAME THE POLICE.What really concerns me is what the DNA information could be used for in the future. There's probably a huge amount of possibilities, most of them sinister IMO. I read ages ago that whole groups of folk could be annihilated by a virus that selects their "type" only and leaves other folk safe. We really, really don't know who has the power over that information and what they could have in mind in the future. Imagine a DNA database in the hands of the Gestapo in Nazi Germany.I'm not a total pessimist, I count myself lucky to be bringing my kids up in the UK. I have water when I turn on the tap. I have food in abundance. I'm far richer than most of the poor folk on this planet. I just think the future has many roads, anything can go wrong at any time, and this is a wrong turn. I see a warning sign up ahead.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Chorlton, thats just the problem the DNA of the innocent wont be returned to them it will be stored for years,

That will only happen if and when the law changes to allow DNA testing. I suspect there will also be the legal right to have DNA destroyed. That right does not exist at present

do you now understand why I use the phrase Police State.

Yes because you've probably never ever seen a true police state, like Singapore or Belorussia or parts of China. Weare nowhere near a police state and never will. I have faith in the parts of our society that watches for these things.

Why would the Police wish to keep tabs on all of us, and are you so ready to hand over your hard fought freedoms to the Police.

As explained. It would mean certain categories pf criminals would find it very hard to explain away why their DNA was in someones house/car/body

I'm afraid attitudes such as yours turns free people into slaves,

And Im afraid panic, knee jerk reactions and attitudes like yours causemany people to get up in arms and panic when nothing has been set down in stone. The suggestions of DNA taking fro dropping litter was simply an example. It ISNT law and personally I doubt it ever will be so starting panic and rumours before anything has even been written down is a little premature.

your guilty if you dont submit to a DNA test, what about the rights of an individual to due process,

We arent in the USA, there is no 'due process'.
If you refuse a blood or urine test for drunk driving you must be hiding something. I hope you think about that when someone kills your wife/partner/child. DNA testing will have safeguards

you want to get rid of the courts as well do you.

Dont make statements and atribute them to me. I never said that.
I was making an assumption based on the Drink Driving laws, nothing else.

You are seeing this issue from one perspective and one alone, try looking at the bigger pictutre and the long term implications for the whole populace.

To be brutally honest, the populace as a whole doesnt give a damn about me. (Try spending some time in a wheelchair and you will realise what I mean) therefore why should I give a damn about the populace?
What I want is when some scumbag breaks into my house, he gets caught and jailed, and not let out to plant flowers and have a good time.
You should be concetrating on sentencing criminals if you care so much about the populace.

As I said, I doubt the DNA thing for the litter thing will ever get into force, but even if it does I wont worry about it as I dont break the law nor do I intend to. (well apart from speeding now and again)

Calm down and stop panicking

Wigit, my concerns also, thats the problem some people just swallow the party line, oh it will help with crime etc. what they dont realise is that there are other reasons why the powers that be would want this info.

And what you wrote is just one of them, why the hell did we fight the Nazis, what was the point when we have people like Chorlton who want to hand our freedom and liberty to the new Nazis.

I could just imagine a scenario such as yours, how would we know if such a thing happened, I would not know your DNA and you mine.

Look at it this way there are some who say that the world needs depopulating, what better way to do it than this, just think you could rid the world of all the undesirables, but which undesirables.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
The latest move in the Police state is that if you drop litter, dont wear a seatbelt or speed the Police want your DNA, why.

Where is your source for this statement? I haven't heard of any laws coming into effect that force you to give DNA samples in such minimal crimes. Even if the Police do want your DNA they would only be able to request it, they cant forcefully take sample or keep it without your knowledge. The Law ensures that. Luckily, the police are not elected, because elected peoples are obsessed with public image, more-so than with what they have been elected to do. The police operate within the Law, and on behalf of the Law. Its what stops gangs of scum beating everyone they want in the middle of the day. Yeah the police aren't perfect but they try their best.

Chorlton, the point is, we already catch folk for running down kids. They usually get a couple of years only. If someone robs your house they're usually bailed on the Monday after it. If they are jailed they get all the herion they want inside which they buy with their prison wages or get from visitors and they get more perks than you've ever had in your life when they're out. When they're released they get a release grant from the prison. If they're in more than six months they get a community care grant from the dole to buy clothes AND a crisis loan, (favourite scam is to say it's lost, report it to the police, the dole double checks the police report, believes it's a genuine loss, then sends more money). My friend works with criminals, they have lists of offences longer than your arm. If one knocked a granny off her feet today for her purse they'd be locked up till Monday, up in court, then freed on bail, again. That's fact. They're given free digs (pay £3 surcharges in some places) , they jump the housing list, free furniture, free tokens to get fresh Marks and Spencer food from the salvation army (every day), free mega-rider bus tickets to travel anywhere they want etc. etc. etc.Why do we need a DNA database to catch criminals if we're not going to punish them?There's definitely something more to this than meets the eye.

Chorlton, I'm not panicking, but the fact is that due to the bogus WOT the laws of this land are changing like it or not. And where did I state that I was soft on criminals, I'm all for approriate sentences for what ever crimes but we are not talking of such cases and your use of them as examples is wrong hear. This thread is about the Police wanting the powers to obtain everyone's DNA and for the details to be kept on file indefinately their arguament being if someone commits a crime then they will have absolute proof of their guilt.

And we do have due process, its where you or I go to court and have a right to trial by our peers where you are innocent until proven guilty and not a system where the Police state they have irrefutable proof of your guilt so superseeding that process.

It is unfortunate that due to your own personal circumstances that you feel the way you do.

Originally posted by wigit
Chorlton, the point is, we already catch folk for running down kids. They usually get a couple of years only.

But, sir, as I stated in my post. Punishment is a differnt question different department
You have to catch them first, which is where the DNA thing comes in.

Im all for harsher sentences, bringing back public thrashing/whipping etc
(now that will cause a stir here wont it) The problem we have in the UK now is the 'Bleeding heart syndrome' "Oh they didnt mean to do it, they come from a broken home etc etc etc" WELL THATS JUST TOUGH

Whilst Im not a fan of Arab law I could support the 'Cut their hands off' for stealing point of view.

*Edit: No need to quote entire posts*

[edit on 4-8-2007 by dbates]

Originally posted by Chorlton
Im all for harsher sentences, bringing back public thrashing/whipping etc
(now that will cause a stir here wont it) The problem we have in the UK now is the 'Bleeding heart syndrome' "Oh they didnt mean to do it, they come from a broken home etc etc etc" WELL THATS JUST TOUGH

Whilst Im not a fan of Arab law I could support the 'Cut their hands off' for stealing point of view.

Now I'm in agreement with you, a star to you for that. BRING BACK THE BIRCH.BTW I'm a madam not a sir.

Cholrton, have you ever thought that much crime has its roots in social issues and that there are real reasons for people commiting crimes in the first place.

I used to think like you but I am glad to say I have changed, hanging does not prevent murder does it so I will be glad were not going down that road again, are you bitter about something?

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Cholrton, have you ever thought that much crime has its roots in social issues and that there are real reasons for people commiting crimes in the first place.

Yes I have thought about it but people are responsible for their own actions. No one makes someone stealmug murder or rape, that is a personal decision. No one makes them do that. Your principle is the 'bleeding heart sysndrome' Oh they didnt mean to do it they are from a broken home. That is BS. no one makes someone commit a crime.

I used to think like you but I am glad to say I have changed, hanging does not prevent murder does it so

No it doesnt but it will stop the scumbag that murders doing it again.
Hear about the murderer in Sussex who was let out of prison early and within 2 weeks he did it again? Would you have been happy if that was your wife/son/daughter or even you?

I will be glad were not going down that road again, are you bitter about something?

No but Im worried about criminals not being given the correct sentence for what they have done. I was in a court some months back where a 19 year old was up for stealing someones Range Rover. It was later found that he had stolen 73 vehicles over the lsat year. What did he get? 100 Hours community service. Is that going to teach him a lesson. The person whos Range Rover he stole "and completely wrote off in the process" said he had saved for months and months to buy his dream vehicle then along comes Mr scumbag, steals it and wrecks it. He should have done 6 months inside.

Chorlton, its not about what I'm happy about or not and I for one knows that our criminal system is abit of a lottery but vilonce beggets violence its as simple as that, maybe if the car thief had been chained to a car production line 10 hrs a day he'd be sick of cars.

But again we are talking about two issues,your talking about crime and how its dealt with and I'm talking about the Police wishing to have the power to arrest and charge who they like. these are two completely different things.

The police having everyones DNA will not prevent crime, crime will still take place, how we deal with criminals is a different issue completely and your wrong people do things because of the influence of others, its a human weakness just as we are regulated to do certain things all the time.

Yes I will agree that PC has a lot to answer for I can remember the days I got thrashed at school, yes it was a deterrent to the majority but not the few. Would I like to see it re introiduced today, no I would not.

You have to remember that laws are made for 95% of the population you cannot regulate the other 5%, has the chopping off of hands stopped thieves in SA no it has not, social change for the better reduces crime but it will not remove it completly

The problem is the police are not getting to the root of the problem....Which is class A drugs....They need to build specialized centers for the Herion addicts and crack heads....Without those addicts....Violent crime and burglary would hardly exist...Sure there would still be professional gangs operating.. But the place sure would be better without the junkies...There not helping the junkies..
They lock them up....Give them limited help..They come back out....Still hooked and commit a crime on the same day they get out. They need to take Hollands stance or also Sweden's...Where they have specialized units for these junkies.
They clean them up...Learn them a skill...And let them out into a job. I know this post is way of the littler thing...But you know how it goes don't you?

For any one interested.

Have you had a DNA sample taken and your profile placed on the National DNA Database? If so, please join our campaign to try and change the law and have yourself removed from the database.

GeneWatch UK

And this is a very interesting word document on police taking DNA samples - although a quick glance doesn't give a publication date.

But the sample has to be taken by a suitably trained person, and they should inform you THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PROVIDE A SAMPLE!! (· if you don't consent to giving the sample, and there is good cause to suspect you committed the offence they are requesting the sample for, the Police may apply to the Court for an order requiring you to give a sample.) buggers didn't tell me any thing like that when I was arrested and released in confusion about a traffic issue - just some big copper told me it was the law now guilty or innocent that samples are given at the arrest stage -then he stuffed a scrapper thing in my mouth.

[edit on 7/8/2007 by Now_Then]

I am afraid that those people who support the collection of DNA for such things as dropping a cigarette butt,or going 5mph over the speed limit are in a form of denial-I would go as far as to say they are possibly suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome."
I hear the chocolate ration is going up by 10grams next week...

BTW,what do people who endorse the DNA samples from petty offenders think about DNA and fingerprints being taken in certain UK schools-not of criminals,but of everyone?
Is there any good reason to take the DNA of kids,or is this as I suspect just a way of collecting samples for a full on database of "potential future criminals.?

My Opinion

See what happens when you have Police in the first place.

All these laws telling you what you can and cannot do.

But hey I guess people like being told what to do all the time.

Originally posted by Miishgoos
My Opinion

See what happens when you have Police in the first place.

All these laws telling you what you can and cannot do.

But hey I guess people like being told what to do all the time.

It would be a pretty dark place if we had no form of laws though man-whos got the biggest gun/nuke type scenario,death and retribution would be law-I`d rather a rational system of laws backed up by rational police,if that is possible.Worth aiming for i think.